Indian Special Forces

ALBY

ALBY

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ManhattanProject said:
i never said that the hk416 is unreliable, it just as reliable as any other modern well made AR15. But with the AR you have lighter weight, same ergonomics and far lesser recoil.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the insight and i browsed on the things u said and find these;
This site has this misconception that the HK416 is some uber weapon that vastly outperforms the M4A1. It doesn’t and has flaws inherent to the design of a piston-AR that your M4A1 is not going to have.

When the 416’s piston slams into the bolt-carrier, it impacts with a different force than when you get gas blowing back on the piston. This in turn causes the bolt to recoil backwards and downwards. This is a problem because the AR-bolt is then shoved into the lower receiver and the buffer tube causing damage. This is called carrier tilt and over time this becomes an issue that means you have to replace parts faster. This is an issue with all piston ARs and no matter what HK does to reinforce that portion of the rifle, it’s just delaying the inevitable and causes issues to the receiver and the bolt carrier group. Direct impingement ARs don’t have this issue.

When firing M885A1, the HK416 suffers severe parts breakage issues. While there are reports that the M4A1 suffers the same issues, it was mostly resolved with the adoption of PMAGs. With HK416s, the overgassing mixed with a very high pressure 5.56 round causes problems with the piston and even with PMAGs the problem isn’t really resolved. This is why the USMC tried to fight the adoption of the M855A1 for such a long period of time, the round broke the HK416 that the USMC had invested so much money on. And when HK416s go down, they go down HARD. A former NSW guy on deployment with a JSOC unit said that they ended up having to use MP7s because the JSOC guys were running operations and they just couldn’t fix their HK416s without armorers so they were just using the NSW guys’s MK.18s.

Accuracy can never be as good as a solid free-float direct impingement AR-15. HK416s are more accurate than an M4A1 and the M16A4, but that’s because it’s free-float. You could free-float the M4A1 and the M16A4 for cheaper and they’d work better. Why? The barrel expands due to heat, but the piston does not expand. There was an HK video touting that the piston was cool enough to touch after a mag dump. That literally doesn’t matter in terms of weapon functionality. When a DI AR-15 fires, the barrel expands due to heat, as does the gas tube, although to not as drastic of a degree. This allows for less accuracy shifts compared to the piston which is why when you see semi-auto precision rifles in competitions, you always see DI AR-10s or AR-15s.

You can read some BS article from the National Interest about how the Army is lobbying to keep its M4A1 in service because it lines someone’s pockets. Part of this is true, but neither the Mk.16 SCAR nor the HK416 are suitable replacements for the M4A1 because they do not provide a capability that the M4A1 doesn’t already provide and if anything don’t outperform it either.

You can look at the USMC and say they know what they’re doing. Yeah sure they may know something I don’t, but you should also know the USMC had experimental trials for a mid-length gas system AR-15 to replace the M4A1. This is extremely similar to the recently adopted USASOC URG-I and according to my source, the USMC had an arguably more mature program for this weapon than the United States Army Special Operations Command did. And they passed it up for the HK416 that SOCOM passed on back in the day. 10th Special Forces Group conducted testing that showed the HK416s were mechanically less reliable than Mk.18s (DI AR-15s) which is why they advised against adopting the HK416. They didn’t adopt HK416s because they were expensive, it’s because they weren’t better than the M4A1s they were replacing. And today USASOC adopted the USASOC URG-I that is a DI rifle while the Corps adopted the HK416 because of HK lobbying and the presence and involvement of former Marines in the procurement process.

There are people who will spout that the HK416 runs cleaner but that’s not really true either. You’re stilling getting carbon build up on the piston-barrel contact point, which can be a bitch to clean. M4A1s are harder to get inspection ready, but the hot gas blowing back on the bolt carrier actually helps blow dirt and mud that would otherwise impede weapon function off of the bolt carrier allowing more reliable function
#copied
 
Sourajit Dutta

Sourajit Dutta

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Scramjet said:
Some tech stuff :
FLIRs make pictures from heat, not visible light. Heat (also called infrared, or thermal, energy) and light are both parts of the electromagnetic spectrum, but a camera that can detect visible light won’t see thermal energy, and vice versa.

Thermal cameras detect more than just heat though; they detect tiny differences in heat – as small as 0.01°C – and display them as shades of grey or with different colors.

On the other hand
NVGs/NODs/NVDs use optoelectronic image enhancement, which works by sensing small amounts of infrared light that are reflected off objects and then electrically amplifying that light into a characteristic glowing green/white image depending upon phosphor screen it has

The major pitfall of night vision image intensifiers is that its effectiveness decreases as nearby light decreases. This means that if the night is cloudy and overcast, blocking the light from the moon and stars, there is a dramatic decrease in the clarity of the night vision image. The same is true if fog is present, and intense rain can reflect light off many different surfaces, making it difficult to see clear images, these conditions render passive night vision devices unusable.

The major pro of using a thermal imaging camera is the fact that it requires no light to function, and strenuous weather conditions do not affect its function either. Through fog, smoke, overcast or dust storms, the thermal imaging camera will always show reliable, clear pictures that detect potential hazards with heat signatures.

To get the best of the two worlds, thermal and nvg monoculars are mounted together with a common
Interface that generates an overlapped image
(Pic 3)

Pic1: difference between natural/thermal image
Pic2 : NVG/NOD POV
Pic3 : PSQ 20 generated image (thermal + intensified)
Pic4 : para SF operatives with helmet mounted thermals (tonbo's)

View attachment 93234

View attachment 93235

View attachment 93236

View attachment 93238
Click to expand...
This is exactly what I was thinking & searching for today. Maybe opinions of senior members can clear this up; what's the reason why we've recently seen TIs more than NVDs with Indian forces recently?
 
vampyrbladez

vampyrbladez

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ALBY said:
When the 416’s piston slams into the bolt-carrier, it impacts with a different force than when you get gas blowing back on the piston. This in turn causes the bolt to recoil backwards and downwards. This is a problem because the AR-bolt is then shoved into the lower receiver and the buffer tube causing damage. This is called carrier tilt and over time this becomes an issue that means you have to replace parts faster. This is an issue with all piston ARs and no matter what HK does to reinforce that portion of the rifle, it’s just delaying the inevitable and causes issues to the receiver and the bolt carrier group. Direct impingement ARs don’t have this issue.

With HK416s, the overgassing mixed with a very high pressure 5.56 round causes problems with the piston and even with PMAGs the problem isn’t really resolved.

When a DI AR-15 fires, the barrel expands due to heat, as does the gas tube, although to not as drastic of a degree. This allows for less accuracy shifts compared to the piston which is why when you see semi-auto precision rifles in competitions, you always see DI AR-10s or AR-15s.

There are people who will spout that the HK416 runs cleaner but that’s not really true either. You’re stilling getting carbon build up on the piston-barrel contact point, which can be a bitch to clean. M4A1s are harder to get inspection ready, but the hot gas blowing back on the bolt carrier actually helps blow dirt and mud that would otherwise impede weapon function off of the bolt carrier allowing more reliable function
#copied
Click to expand...
I think we can now understand why the Indian Army passed on the SIG 716 G2 and opted for the SIG 716I :


  • Much heavier bolt carrier group needed to secure against the shearing effect due to full automatic fire by 7.62x51 mm aka carrier tilt.

  • Additional parts like Gas Piston , Regulator and Heavier Bolt leads to more weight and increased cost.

  • Greater Accuracy in Direct Impingement systems due to no second mass movement from Gas Piston adding to perceived/ felt recoil.
 
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