Indian Special Forces

[Kumaoni]

Based, just gonna go right back to coping and reading old Ops

just read about this one badass soldier who disguised himself as a militant and led an ambush party to a group of 40 militants. Will post about him soon

Back to coping till we finally modernize*

 

[DumbPilot]

Based, just gonna go right back to coping and reading old Ops

just read about this one badass soldier who disguised himself as a militant and led an ambush party to a group of 40 militants. Will post about him soon

One of the most fascinating moment for me was during the 1962 war. The Chinese attacked the 2 Rajput from behind with deceit, and even then, the 2 Rajput made sure that the Chinese were not escaping unscathed.

An officer(John Dalvi I think) who was captured and interrogated as PoW, was asked if the Indians gave the 2 Rajput any special supplement or training, as they thought the 2 Rajput were some crack unit. In reality, half of these guys were not even running on full stomachs and had minimal clothing. Gave me goosebumps.

 

[rkhanna]

The modernization will happen when it has to happen.

Modernization requires Hard Work

1. Vision - Vision of future threats and aspirational capability
2. Planning
3. implementation / R&D /
4. Replanning / correcting teething problems etc etc.
5. Account for and plan for incremental improvements in each phase of the Modernization phase

Its a multidecadal effort.

Requires Hardwork, requires Skill.

 

[rkhanna]

behind with deceit

Correction - With Brains

If you are ever in a fair fight it means you didnt plan properly.

 

[DumbPilot]

Correction - With Brains

If you are ever in a fair fight it means you didnt plan properly.

That's a fair point and I agree. My emotions didn't let me write that word LOL

 

[rkhanna]

they thought the 2 Rajput were some crack unit

In the Himalays every single IA Unit that deploys there is a crack unit compared to ANY unit in the world.

 

[Kumaoni]

In the Himalays every single IA Unit that deploys there is a crack unit compared to ANY unit in the world.

In the jungles too.
Source: relatives who’ve fought in Nagaland in the 70s+ reading accounts of officers

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

I am ok with transgenders getting equal opportunities but tell me one thing

Are the recent officers getting degrees from JNU because we are getting on point with human rights but the same things dont show up on education as far as modernisation is concered.

 

[DumbPilot]

In the Himalays every single IA Unit that deploys there is a crack unit compared to ANY unit in the world.

I have a theory regarding the issues in the current military.

Most of the officers who graduated when India was under British rule were the ones who had shown exemplary skill and conduct. Post 80s, most of these guys had retired already, and the new officers who were raised under the socialist economy took office, which where I think the decline started to happen.

Now with economic liberalization, I think that when the officers from the 2000s and 2010s start to take high offices, there will again be a shift in the way that the military works - these guys have been raised completely different from how the older officers were.

Just a theory - I don't know how valid this is, but it made sense to me.

 

[Kumaoni]

Correction - With Brains

If you are ever in a fair fight it means you didnt plan properly.

Fact: we used behind the line assaults on posts in 1965 during the Haji Pir and OP hill offensives in 65. 65 mountain theatre was not won, but totally dominated by the Indian military.

One of the most fascinating moment for me was during the 1962 war. The Chinese attacked the 2 Rajput from behind with deceit, and even then, the 2 Rajput made sure that the Chinese were not escaping unscathed.

An officer(John Dalvi I think) who was captured and interrogated as PoW, was asked if the Indians gave the 2 Rajput any special supplement or training, as they thought the 2 Rajput were some crack unit. In reality, half of these guys were not even running on full stomachs and had minimal clothing. Gave me goosebumps.

Many times jawans were going for days without a single morsel of food, often dehydrated. They were fighting two battles: one with the environment and one with the Chinese.

What happened to them is criminal. Never again must the jawans be forced to fight in such odds.

 

[Kumaoni]

I have a theory regarding the issues in the current military.

Most of the officers who graduated when India was under British rule were the ones who had shown exemplary skill and conduct. Post 80s, most of these guys had retired already, and the new officers who were raised under the socialist economy took office, which where I think the decline started to happen.

Now with economic liberalization, I think that when the officers from the 2000s and 2010s start to take high offices, there will again be a shift in the way that the military works - these guys have been raised completely different from how the older officers were.

Just a theory - I don't know how valid this is, but it made sense to me.

You, my friend, would be entirely right. The army officer leadership in the 90s and early 00s was also with YOs who fought in 71. Our current upper brass is from the 80s-90s generation where COIN was our biggest threat. As a result, they have forgotten about conventional war, and think that modern counter insurgencies are the wins.

It’s a reason why the older officers came up with RR, we needed RR as the army doing COIN would destroy its conventional capabilities.

 

[rkhanna]

Are the recent officers getting degrees from JNU because we are getting on point with human rights but the same things dont show up on education as far as modernisation is concered.

Well JNU is irrelevant because ALOT of Officers in the past 70/80/90s came from JNU and DU.

no (IMO)- simply put its the quality of intake - economic progress has made better minds seek corporate life which was not there before.

The rigours of mundane coin and relative peace on the border (and yes I include Kargil in this) with the blanket cover of Nukes has made our Generals and Mid Level commanders complacent because they still get their honors and their medals and promotions with little percieved risk of wider conflict (Percieved Risk is the mother of Innovation).

I also firmly believe that As the Army oriented from the Lanka Debacle to Insurgency Fighting there was a bit of a DNA/ETHOS shift within. A large number of Veterans retired by the end of 90s and 2000s and todays commanders grew up in COIN.

 

[Kumaoni]

Well JNU is irrelevant because ALOT of Officers in the past 70/80/90s came from JNU and DU.

no (IMO)- simply put its the quality of intake - economic progress has made better minds seek corporate life which was not there before.

The rigours of mundane coin and relative peace on the border (and yes I include Kargil in this) with the blanket cover of Nukes has made our Generals and Mid Level commanders complacent because they still get their honors and their medals and promotions with little percieved risk of wider conflict (Percieved Risk is the mother of Innovation).

I also firmly believe that As the Army oriented from the Lanka Debacle to Insurgency Fighting there was a bit of a DNA/ETHOS shift within. A large number of Veterans retired by the end of 90s and 2000s and todays commanders grew up in COIN.

I think Kargil made army brass satisfied. They felt they could beat Pakistan in any theatre. Which is good, army fought splendidly in Kargil, no doubt it. Some really, really, top tier victories won there.

but there were also many shortcomings, they didn’t improve on those shortcomings. For eg, soldiers from 8 sikh didn’t have proper gear as they were in COIN. Same with troopers from 1 naga. The intel reports reported only 10 enemy soldiers on tolloling, which wouldprove fatal for 18 grenadiers. Instead of addressing these issues, we whitewashed them as we won. You can never be complement in the world of military, and I trulybelieve complacency Is our main issue.

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

I wish so, if that happens we can assume the marine corps to have their own Ghatak platoons to be used like Force Marine Recon so MARCOs will be relieved of that task of long range recce for beach targets. It could be even better if just like in the SBS, MARCOs take experienced guys from CD and Marines. Then we could really develop a tier system

That would be awesome need to get done with theatarization as step 1

 

[rkhanna]

Agree

but there were also many shortcomings, they didn’t improve on those shortcomings

IMO because the Brass believes that everything will be confined to Shallow Border Conflicts here on out. (China or India) due to Shadow of nukes.

 

[rkhanna]

I wish so, if that happens we can assume the marine corps to have their own Ghatak platoons to be used like Force Marine Recon so MARCOs will be relieved of that task of long range recce for beach targets. It could be even better if just like in the SBS, MARCOs take experienced guys from CD and Marines. Then we could really develop a tier system

Had discussed this elsewhere - Raising a Marine Force will be prohibitively expensive for India. the 340th Ind Brigade is the best we can do. A Marine Force would need LPDs/LPHs - Escorts, Rotary Fixed Wing Assets, Artillery etc etc.

At best we can Aspire to is a Royal Marine Commando type formation - which IMO should be what MARCOS becomes and a SOF element - carved out of that.

Expand Base Marcos - Carve out 3 200 Member SOF teams out of that and 1 Tier one Type Unit ~100 odd men) - Merge all UDTs and VBSS teams also into the MCF in a centralized Command Structure.

 

[Kumaoni]

Agree



IMO because the Brass believes that everything will be confined to Shallow Border Conflicts here on out. (China or India) due to Shadow of nukes.

This thinking will cost, us dearly. We need to work hard.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Well JNU is irrelevant because ALOT of Officers in the past 70/80/90s came from JNU and DU.

no (IMO)- simply put its the quality of intake - economic progress has made better minds seek corporate life which was not there before.

The rigours of mundane coin and relative peace on the border (and yes I include Kargil in this) with the blanket cover of Nukes has made our Generals and Mid Level commanders complacent because they still get their honors and their medals and promotions with little percieved risk of wider conflict (Percieved Risk is the mother of Innovation).

I also firmly believe that As the Army oriented from the Lanka Debacle to Insurgency Fighting there was a bit of a DNA/ETHOS shift within. A large number of Veterans retired by the end of 90s and 2000s and todays commanders grew up in COIN.

Sub standard intellect with bravado and pride of the past is a very bad cocktail

 

[Kumaoni]

Sub standard intellect with bravado and pride of the past is a very bad cocktail

Agreed. It will cost us dearly if we don’t wake up. Staying on top the game is crucial. Warfare is changing yearly with new technologies being innovated.

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

Guy claims there is dedicated sniper school