Indian Special Forces

[Kumaoni]

I mean professional ethos. No one can argue that Para SF (commandos as they were first called) have the same professional ethos/mandate/outlook as the SAS

paras have always been a raiding/super light infantry type unit, SAS from day 1 literally was conducting strategic operations (in Africa) to create an outsized damage on the entire battlefield. I don’t think Paras have ever aspired to that or even delivered that (71 Ops are maybe close to it but even that is well within the mandate of what conventional units in other militaries would do).

and where Paras are today to where SAS are today in terms of ethos could Not be further apart, I don’t think the SAS would even trust paras to be a blocking force for them

Also- this is what seperates paras from SAS and other SF. Paras are basically a damn fine super infantry force (no denying this- they can do disproportionate damage behind enemy lines)- but taking out HVTs, specializing in unconventional warfare (they have good stalking capabilities, but it hasn’t been exploited on to take down real HVTs), and decent assymetrical warfare experience (training NA in early 2000s).

the founder of 9 para, Major Megh Singh, literally created a force to cause as much damage behind enemy lines as possible. The 1965 and 1971 raids had very little strategic outcome, and are thus great tactical actions. A strategic action would be raiding and destroying Pakistani HQs of brigade command and division command, as it would effectively collapse an entire front of the Paki army, thus achieving strategic outcome. SAS has been ruling in Africa and Arabia, although their ops in Afghandustan are subpar (then again- it’snot their war).

 

[airborneCommando]

SAS type unit makes the most sense for a country like India, India doesn’t need a FID-centric SF (like US SF are meant for), delta is probably too DA focused for the IA’s needs. Paras ripped off their emblem, sadly they couldn’t rip off their training/ethos/ORBAT (like Delta did)

I think the French SOCOM/SOC actually is also very compatible for india given all arms of their military have an SF component but they actually have specialisations

100% Agree, the visionary officers saw SAS styled unit as the main solution for us, every special operations units raised in India had SAS styled organisational structure. The fact that we self sabotaged at such a mature stage really makes one think.

 

[airborneCommando]

Most para units are inexperienced and don’t see much ops. Only 4, 10, 9, and 21 para see recurring operations. The rest are okay and haven’t seen much action since 2010 (going by their regimental records here- could be wrong).

And yes an individual para SF operator is a damn fine one. Ln NAIK Mohan nath Goswami eliminated two terrorists with two shots from his tavor while saving his men! I don’t even want to bring out the legendary operators from the 90s,I’ll stick to current ones.

Adding to this LnNk Goswami had killed 11+ and captured one live terrorist before that operation in a week's time.

 

[Kumaoni]

Adding to this LnNk Goswami had killed 11+ and captured one live terrorist before that operation in a week's time.

Not sure if he individually did so, but he led his squad of 6 into doing so. Damn fine operator. Whoever told paras to go do op in rajouri in May 2022 needs to be hanged for murdering 5 Indian soldiers.

 

[Kumaoni]

100% Agree, the visionary officers saw SAS styled unit as the main solution for us, every special operations units raised in India had SAS styled organisational structure. The fact that we self sabotaged at such a mature stage really makes one think.

Major Gaurav Arya really made me change my view on the SF. Not only are we shit equipped but we are we really training SF or super infantry? The ops para does, I repeat are able to be done by ghataks, and in some cases reg infantry

 

[airborneCommando]

Major Gaurav Arya really made me change my view on the SF. Not only are we shit equipped but we are we really training SF or super infantry? The ops para does, I repeat are able to be done by ghataks, and in some cases reg infantry

Most of the cases*

 

[Kumaoni]

 

[Jedi Operator]

Even the battalions you’ve mentioned have done zero true SOF ops btw

where will you draw manpower from in the beginning? And SOF capability has a lot to do with the insertion/extraction platforms and gears and tactics/training. We need to filter out the best in all the battalions and focus on making them well trained and well equipped for a new SF

 

[Kumaoni]

where will you draw manpower from in the beginning? And SOF capability has a lot to do with the insertion/extraction platforms and gears and tactics/training. We need to filter out the best in all the battalions and focus on making them well trained and well equipped for a new SF

More importantly they need to be INDEPENDENT FROM the army and the CO or General of the SF regimebt (or division) needs to directly report to the CDS and be responsible for the procurements of said SF regiment or division.

 

[Jedi Operator]

More importantly they need to be INDEPENDENT FROM the army and the CO or General of the SF regimebt (or division) needs to directly report to the CDS and be responsible for the procurements of said SF regiment or division.

That's exactly how they planned it in the 80s, never got implemented

 

[Kumaoni]

That's exactly how they planned it in the 80s, never got implemented

General BC Joshi, the last COAS with any sense of strategic vision.

 

[Jedi Operator]

View attachment 215874
General BC Joshi, the last COAS with any sense of strategic vision.

Also Gen VK Singh realized the need for actionable intelligence and TSD was in every way a true 'SF' unit. Too bad it was scrapped out.

 

[Aspirant847]

It’s annoying to see paras being used as security. They are far to trained for it

if you read what you yourself posted it was not "security", it was just an operation based on intel

 

[kaboom]

Can we all agree that nearly all issues with SF can be solved by making them independent .
They should have their own budget, bases, selection process and training , Intel wing , procurement power, and should be managed by their own SF qualified officers , and should be only answerable to CDS .

 

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

Can we all agree that nearly all issues with SF can be solved by making them independent .
They should have their own budget, bases, selection process and training , Intel wing , procurement power, and should be managed by their own SF qualified officers , and should be only answerable to CDS .

On point and that's what we are hoping for after theatarization now we will know after August 15 on which direction it will go

 

[kaboom]

Nsg going for newer courses
Gotta say Nsg is maturing fast

 

[Kumaoni]

Need to counter the argument “but para has experience”.

In modern times (post 2014), only 4 para battalions see any kind of yearly operations, those being 4, 9, 10 and 21 (10 para has at least one company on rotation based on what I can find- they win gallantry awards in Kashmir every other year). Besdies that, the other para battalions regularly do peacetime and field tenures like regular infantry. Canyou please tell me what ops 7, 2, 12, and 6 have done in recent times? I don’t even want to talk about 23 or 29 para, who have less experience than regular infantry!

only 3 para has done ops inside in Kashmir since 2011 (not counting 4,9,10,21) and it has less exposure than RR battalions! That should tell you everything about the pitiful state of para SF in 2023. So no, not every para battalion, and even if we go back 50 years, 60% of now “special forces” have seen consistent ops, which is quite worrisome.

Paras need to be remade.

 

[abingdonboy]

I don’t get the rationale behind scrapping all those Para SF battalions just because of the inefficiency and lack of long vision among the top brass.These men are the cream of the 1.3 million army and the rigorous probation period they had undergone are on par with the best of the SFs around the world.If you scrapped all of them then its waste of talent and all those hardships they endured will be for nothing.Even if you make a unit just as you envisioned it still going to have the same issues which is prevalent at the present as the people calling shots will be still there with their crack minds

‘Cream of the crop’ is all relative. Firstly not all ‘SF’ battalions are equal in selection/training- this itself is a huge issue and the fact that to this day Paras don’t have a central training/selection pipeline (despite proposing it for many years) shows how hopeless this regiment is.

I’m not sure what your point on probation is, I’m sure it’s tough but physically straining someone is not training in itself and doesn’t necessarily ensure a quality SF modern operator-tougness/resilience is onto part of being SF.

steel sharpens steel, if these guys are the cream of the crop they’ll be amply represented in the new unit

I’m saying make Para regiment tier 2 to a new dedicated SF unit.

of course you final point remains valid (and why this is all pie in the sky fantasy talk that will never materialise),the reason the current situation is so screwed will inevitably poison any of these dreams. The inexplicable influence of the para (airborne) officers will be replicated if they see a better funded and more prestigious unit getting the love+ senior officers who have systemically destroyed the Paras will never allow such an organisation to emerge.

all of this is a symptom of a muncher deeper issue which has been touched on in the last few pages. Don’t hold out much hope that theatre commands will be anyone’s saviour. These clowns generals have been resisting and watering down this instruction from the GoI for the best part of the last decade, they are now onto arguing if the proposed commands should have geographical names or numbers.

good times create weak men, India has not been slapped around enough to wake up, I’m not sure there even exists a set of conditions to wake up those that are pretending to sleep, ‘leadership’ in india is too insular and myopic (and highly ignorant), and of course in a democracy you get the leaders you deserve. The same people that will vote for nonstop freebies are not going to give two hoots about the nuances between a raiding force And SF. Crocodile tears for martyrs then the next day back to masala

 

[Kumaoni]

These nuts