Indian Special Forces

[Suryavanshi]

We have too much guts, we need equipments now. I long for the day we hunt Pakistani and Chinese in modern equipments and ruthlessly slaughter them

F INSAS was last hope, now things would happen in phases and that too very uneven.
That is why you see the old and new helmet side by side, folks of the same group don't have standardization.
Basic equipment can be produced en mass but for some reason its not being done.
The worst is already coming true, AK series platform and than sigs as well both in the same army. It will be a clustefuck.

I could imagine this is what they menat by political inference.
Babudom had to keep the Ruski happy, they suggested buying guns, yes man from the forces said yes why not. We end up with ak 203.

 

[Kumaoni]

F INSAS was last hope, now things would happen in phases and that too very uneven.
That is why you see the old and new helmet side by side, folks of the same group don't have standardization.
Basic equipment can be produced en mass but for some reason its not being done.
The worst is already coming true, AK series platform and than sigs as well both in the same army. It will be a clustefuck.

I could imagine this is what they menat by political inference.
Babudom had to keep the Ruski happy, they suggested buying guns, yes man from the forces said yes why not. We end up with ak 203.

Russians have truly destroyed our modernization process with their constant Hindi russi Bhai Bhai gaslighting. Americans will also do this with their democracy farce. We are unable to really stand our ground.

Literally every equipment we want to be on para SF has and can be made by amarsen or any other production company.

 

[abingdonboy]

I pointed that out lol, most of the senior leadership (note Lt general and Up) were seasoned 71 and siachen veterans.

. Even the current crop should have lots of experience against well trained militants back in the early 2000s. The issue, in my opinion, doesn’t lie with junior or mid level leadership, as they only follow orders of high command. It’s the army command which needs to be blamed and held accountable, Galwan and the recent ambushes have seem to done a good job waking them out of their delusions of thinking that they can take on China with 1990s tier equipment. I am seeing better pics of paras wirh COMTACS, better BPJs and PCs.

Jai ho masala has infected these ‘professionals’, when have material and tactical failures EVER been a talking point after these tragic losses? It’s always ‘Martydom’ ‘we will pay back in kind’ ‘Pak=terror state’ chest thumping BS.

at least 26/11 saw mainstream attention brought ok NSG’s failings. i remember a lot being said about how NSG assaulters had been injured by flying shrapnel, how long it took them to get to Mumbai, their lack of effective blueprints etc etc. every single one of these was systematically addressed in the next FIVE years (hubs, equipment modernisation, centralised database of major structures as a SOP etc etc). NSG are still not a top tier CT unit but at least they showed a willingness to accept shortcomings and address the- that too whilst being led by the IPS cadre that IA look down on so much.

give it 6-18 months and there will be another high casualty fk up and it’ll be rinse and repeat. Soldiers are expected to fight and die to this crop of officers.

i utterly reject the red herring that is political interference, no politician is the reason why those para boys were mowed down by some PAFF pigs in broad daylight whilst not even being able to get a shot off from their crappy bull pups without even a basic helmet on their heads

 

[Kumaoni]

Jai ho masala has infected these ‘professionals’, when have material and tactical failures EVER been a talking point after these tragic losses? It’s always ‘Martydom’ ‘we will pay back in kind’ ‘Pak=terror state’ chest thumping BS.

at least 26/11 saw mainstream attention brought ok NSG’s failings. i remember a lot being said about how NSG assaulters had been injured by flying shrapnel, how long it took them to get to Mumbai, their lack of effective blueprints etc etc. every single one of these was systematically addressed in the next FIVE years (hubs, equipment modernisation, centralised database of major structures as a SOP etc etc). NSG are still not a top tier CT unit but at least they showed a willingness to accept shortcomings and address the- that too whilst being led by the IPS cadre that IA look down on so much.

give it 6-18 months and there will be another high casualty fk up and it’ll be rinse and repeat. Soldiers are expected to fight and die to this crop of officers.

i utterly reject the red herring that is political interference, no politician is the reason why those para boys were mowed down by some PAFF pigs in broad daylight whilst not even being able to get a shot off from their crappy bull pups without even a basic helmet on their heads

NSGs come a very long way IMO. They are very good at urban warfare and should be deployed for hostage resuces, as they have managed to several operations with minimal collateral damage in the past and can probably do so again. They will def become top tier in the future and I hope and pray and hope and pray the paras, with all their experience, follow in suit.

But Paras, once again, are not real SF. They are just battalion sized ghataks who can do lots ofdamage behind enemy lines. SF is used for strategic ops (taking down real HVTs not minor area or district commanders which are replaceable in a day, but actual leaders of militant groups likeHafiz Saeed). Para does tactical ops (kills scores of militants).

Iactually believe that the para regt needs to be rebranded (some battalions can become SF, some super infantry, and some airborne), but they need to be modernized and equipped to global standards which have changed drastically since 2003!

 

[skunk works]

View attachment 215831


Jazba and gadar can only take you so far.

If you have jazba than you need the right equipment.
If you have the previous bases covered than you need the right training.

Even mainstream shills like WSJ reporting this? Interesting.

 

[abingdonboy]

NSGs come a very long way IMO. They are very good at urban warfare and should be deployed for hostage resuces, as they have managed to several operations with minimal collateral damage in the past and can probably do so again. They will def become top tier in the future and I hope and pray and hope and pray the paras, with all their experience, follow in suit.

But Paras, once again, are not real SF. They are just battalion sized ghataks who can do lots ofdamage behind enemy lines. SF is used for strategic ops (taking down real HVTs not minor area or district commanders which are replaceable in a day, but actual leaders of militant groups likeHafiz Saeed). Para does tactical ops (kills scores of militants).

Iactually believe that the para regt needs to be rebranded (some battalions can become SF, some super infantry, and some airborne), but they need to be modernized and equipped to global standards which have changed drastically since 2003!

Right around this thread comes

to reiterate some points I’ve made multiple points on these subjects on this thread already:
- NSG can never become top tier and fully capable with a 3 year deputation cycle and no permanent cadre at the core
- Para SF is name only, the only way to un-fk this situation is to burn it all down and start from scratch.
- Para regiment remains but SF name disappears entirely
- a separate SF regiment is created with 1 battalion (at the very very most) size, but to start off a couple of companies is probably the most they should aspire for. This unit has to have its own identity and it should be open to every branch in the IA and IAF/IN, no one gets in just because they served in Paras

Every now and then I think back to wtf happened to that report from a few years ago that the IA was raising a new SF unit with 4 squadrons (including support personnel) , it seemed like someone one time had the 100% correct idea and was completely aware of the situation and solution. That was reported exactly once and never mentioned again and I’m struggling to find the link (I think it was times of India )

 

[abingdonboy]

I don't know why things always look ugly when we use them.

All (in this case SOME) of the gear, no idea aka no real
Doctrine or training updates to go with the new equipment, just taking it straight out of the box and using it most of the time as a a 1:1 replacement for the junk they had before

pretty standard anytime a new piece of equipment is inducted into the IA these days

 

[abingdonboy]

View attachment 215773

This is fucking cool
( we should also do such a thing with our Gurkhas )

Form follows function. Every detail on here has a purpose and has been spec’d by experienced professionals, contrast it with the junk spec ‘new’ equipment inducted into the Indian military just to tick a box

this is the Indian equivalent, LARPing as usual- the rearmost MG doesn’t even have a buttstock

 

[Jedi Operator]

Right around this thread comes

to reiterate some points I’ve made multiple points on these subjects on this thread already:
- NSG can never become top tier and fully capable with a 3 year deputation cycle and no permanent cadre at the core
- Para SF is name only, the only way to un-fk this situation is to burn it all down and start from scratch.
- Para regiment remains but SF name disappears entirely
- a separate SF regiment is created with 1 battalion (at the very very most) size, but to start off a couple of companies is probably the most they should aspire for. This unit has to have its own identity and it should be open to every branch in the IA and IAF/IN, no one gets in just because they served in Paras

Every now and then I think back to wtf happened to that report from a few years ago that the IA was raising a new SF unit with 4 squadrons (including support personnel) , it seemed like someone one time had the 100% correct idea and was completely aware of the situation and solution. That was reported exactly once and never mentioned again and I’m struggling to find the link (I think it was times of India )

If you really want to have a true 'SF' capability here.
Make a program to be run parallelly. A new probation, in all environments and since Para SF have a "probation". This could look something like Green Team. Have lead instructors who are experienced from training canters of 9,10,1,4.....etc. Have Para SF guys who have been in NSG and SG. Then throughout a period of three-four years, every individual in the Para SF & Airborne converted SF should be able to do this once. Criteria matched by this and their former experience and their respective carrier in the filed and how they've performed earlier, select them and make them part of the new "SF". This will be the actual Army SF in our country. Convert the other battalions into Air Assault (considering we have none), regular airborne and Ranger Like infantry. So this way you have the best in every present battalion. Make the standards tough and no matter what the limit of candidates you want in this new SF should be no more than 1000, at all times. Zero complacency and zero wokeness is the name of the game. The Ranger like unit should be more like SFSG. Meanwhile in these 3-4 years you should be able to gather all your expert minds and start equipping side by side.

 

[Kumaoni]

If you really want to have a true 'SF' capability here.
Make a program to be run parallelly. A new probation, in all environments and since Para SF have a "probation". This could look something like Green Team. Have lead instructors who are experienced from training canters of 9,10,1,4.....etc. Have Para SF guys who have been in NSG and SG. Then throughout a period of three-four years, every individual in the Para SF & Airborne converted SF should be able to do this once. Criteria matched by this and their former experience and their respective carrier in the filed and how they've performed earlier, select them and make them part of the new "SF". This will be the actual Army SF in our country. Convert the other battalions into Air Assault (considering we have none), regular airborne and Ranger Like infantry. So this way you have the best in every present battalion. Make the standards tough and no matter what the limit of candidates you want in this new SF should be no more than 1000, at all times. Zero complacency and zero wokeness is the name of the game. The Ranger like unit should be more like SFSG. Meanwhile in these 3-4 years you should be able to gather all your expert minds and start equipping side by side.

Even the battalions you’ve mentioned have done zero true SOF ops btw

 

[abingdonboy]

JSDF hasn’t fired a shot in anger since WW2 and haven’t lost a soldier to enemy action in just as long

i don’t know where the idea that ‘battle hardened’= ‘capable’ came from with respect to the Indian military. Chalta hai is chalta hai

Japan even has the luxury of being an island nation. The enemy is literally at the gates for India,jai ho is the only response.

 

[abingdonboy]

If you really want to have a true 'SF' capability here.
Make a program to be run parallelly. A new probation, in all environments and since Para SF have a "probation". This could look something like Green Team. Have lead instructors who are experienced from training canters of 9,10,1,4.....etc. Have Para SF guys who have been in NSG and SG. Then throughout a period of three-four years, every individual in the Para SF & Airborne converted SF should be able to do this once. Criteria matched by this and their former experience and their respective carrier in the filed and how they've performed earlier, select them and make them part of the new "SF". This will be the actual Army SF in our country. Convert the other battalions into Air Assault (considering we have none), regular airborne and Ranger Like infantry. So this way you have the best in every present battalion. Make the standards tough and no matter what the limit of candidates you want in this new SF should be no more than 1000, at all times. Zero complacency and zero wokeness is the name of the game. The Ranger like unit should be more like SFSG. Meanwhile in these 3-4 years you should be able to gather all your expert minds and start equipping side by side.

Won’t even bother getting into what it could/should look like. If there was the intent they’d figure it out. In the last few years the direction has been the exact opposite of creating a true SF capability - expanding ranks, diluting performance standards, talking about induction of women, more and more tactical employment etc etc

there must be a military fiction thread here to discuss Indian ‘special forces regiment’ selection/training standards

 

[Kumaoni]

Right around this thread comes

to reiterate some points I’ve made multiple points on these subjects on this thread already:
- NSG can never become top tier and fully capable with a 3 year deputation cycle and no permanent cadre at the core

Fair, totally forgot they don’t have permanent cadre. Their operators are still quite skilled, dare I say. I don’t think NSG needs to be a full CT unit- more like a reponse unit for urban hostage taking imo

to reiterate some points I’ve made multiple points on these subjects on this thread already:
- NSG can never become top tier and fully capable with a 3 year deputation cycle and no permanent cadre at the core

- Para regiment remains but SF name disappears entirely
- a separate SF regiment is created with 1 battalion (at the very very most) size, but to start off a couple of companies is probably the most they should aspire for. This unit has to have its own identity and it should be open to every branch in the IA and IAF/IN, no one gets in just because they served in Paras

Every now and then I think back to wtf happened to that report from a few years ago that the IA was raising a new SF unit with 4 squadrons (including support personnel) , it seemed like someone one time had the 100% correct idea and was completely aware of the situation and solution. That was reported exactly once and never mentioned again and I’m struggling to find the link (I think it was times of India )

I think General BC Joshi (the last of the highly competent upper brass) wanted to create a special forces regiment, and he deinducted 3 para btns who were SF at the moment, but this was shot down. This is what I mean when the quality has gone down.

The creators of RR, HAWS, CITS, etc. you think current genrols would be as intelligent as their precedecors?

 

[Kumaoni]

there must be a military fiction thread here to discuss Indian ‘special forces regiment’ selection/training standards

And their function and operations, I’d probably make them exactly like Berrets.

 

[abingdonboy]

And their function and operations, I’d probably make them exactly like Berrets.

SAS type unit makes the most sense for a country like India, India doesn’t need a FID-centric SF (like US SF are meant for), delta is probably too DA focused for the IA’s needs. Paras ripped off their emblem, sadly they couldn’t rip off their training/ethos/ORBAT (like Delta did)

I think the French SOCOM/SOC actually is also very compatible for india given all arms of their military have an SF component but they actually have specialisations

 

[Kumaoni]

SAS type unit makes the most sense for a country like India, India doesn’t need a FID-centric SF (like US SF are meant for), delta is probably too DA focused for the IA’s needs. Paras ripped off their emblem, sadly they couldn’t rip off their training/ethos/ORBAT (like Delta did)

I think the French SOCOM/SOC actually is also very compatible for india given all arms of their military have an SF component but they actually have specialisations

Cmon, the ethos is def there it’s the training, equipment, and specifically ORBAT which they need.

 

[abingdonboy]

Cmon, the ethos is def there it’s the training, equipment, and specifically ORBAT which they need.

I mean professional ethos. No one can argue that Para SF (commandos as they were first called) have the same professional ethos/mandate/outlook as the SAS

paras have always been a raiding/super light infantry type unit, SAS from day 1 literally was conducting strategic operations (in Africa) to create an outsized damage on the entire battlefield. I don’t think Paras have ever aspired to that or even delivered that (71 Ops are maybe close to it but even that is well within the mandate of what conventional units in other militaries would do).

and where Paras are today to where SAS are today in terms of ethos could Not be further apart, I don’t think the SAS would even trust paras to be a blocking force for them

 

[Kumaoni]

I mean professional ethos. No one can argue that Para SF (commandos as they were first called) have the same professional ethos/mandate/outlook as the SAS

paras have always been a raiding/super light infantry type unit, SAS from day 1 literally was conducting strategic operations (in Africa) to create an outsized damage on the entire battlefield. I don’t think Paras have ever aspired to that or even delivered that (71 Ops are maybe close to it but even that is well within the mandate of what conventional units in other militaries would do).

and where Paras are today to where SAS are today in terms of ethos could Not be further apart, I don’t think the SAS would even trust paras to be a blocking force for them

They have scored many tactical victories and caused large damage behind enemy lines. They are effectively a raiding force that has caused huge damage behind enemy lines.

In 1987 there was one raid by 10 para which eliminated 25 lttecadre. They are basically a mix of rangers and green Berrets (.when it comes to stalking and infiltration as well as assymetrical warfare- they have legendary stories with the northern alliance), but overall they have delivered results and ops that rangers do (killing scores of terrorists- but no real HVT).

 

[ALBY]

Right around this thread comes

to reiterate some points I’ve made multiple points on these subjects on this thread already:
- NSG can never become top tier and fully capable with a 3 year deputation cycle and no permanent cadre at the core
- Para SF is name only, the only way to un-fk this situation is to burn it all down and start from scratch.
- Para regiment remains but SF name disappears entirely
- a separate SF regiment is created with 1 battalion (at the very very most) size, but to start off a couple of companies is probably the most they should aspire for. This unit has to have its own identity and it should be open to every branch in the IA and IAF/IN, no one gets in just because they served in Paras

Every now and then I think back to wtf happened to that report from a few years ago that the IA was raising a new SF unit with 4 squadrons (including support personnel) , it seemed like someone one time had the 100% correct idea and was completely aware of the situation and solution. That was reported exactly once and never mentioned again and I’m struggling to find the link (I think it was times of India )

I don’t get the rationale behind scrapping all those Para SF battalions just because of the inefficiency and lack of long vision among the top brass.These men are the cream of the 1.3 million army and the rigorous probation period they had undergone are on par with the best of the SFs around the world.If you scrapped all of them then its waste of talent and all those hardships they endured will be for nothing.Even if you make a unit just as you envisioned it still going to have the same issues which is prevalent at the present as the people calling shots will be still there with their crack minds

 

[Kumaoni]

I don’t get the rationale behind scrapping all those Para SF battalions just because of the inefficiency and lack of long vision among the top brass.These men are the cream of the 1.3 million army and the rigorous probation period they had undergone are on par with the best of the SFs around the world.If you scrapped all of them then its waste of talent and all those hardships they endured will be for nothing.Even if you make a unit just as you envisioned it still going to have the same issues which is prevalent at the present as the people calling shots will be still there with their crack minds

Most para units are inexperienced and don’t see much ops. Only 4, 10, 9, and 21 para see recurring operations. The rest are okay and haven’t seen much action since 2010 (going by their regimental records here- could be wrong).

And yes an individual para SF operator is a damn fine one. Ln NAIK Mohan nath Goswami eliminated two terrorists with two shots from his tavor while saving his men! I don’t even want to bring out the legendary operators from the 90s,I’ll stick to current ones.