Indian Special Forces

[STORE]

Everything pictured but the helmet and sidearm make me want to puke

Cannot expect mission success with this level of capabilities

Whts wrong with the helmet ?

 

[abingdonboy]

Whts wrong with the helmet ?

I did say everything but the helmet.

that said, a high cut without comtacs is just stupid (I’m aware that Tonbo would’ve supplied the helmets as part of the contract for the thermals)

 

[abingdonboy]

Does Para released the photo of their active operations. I don't think so. During the corodon are journalist allowed in, to take pictures of their operational gear. I don't think soo. What ever is realised is Photo ops. Either Geared up or not.

can this thread PLEASE move beyond the ‘they have a super secret stash of Gucci gear they use for all their real Ops’? It is disingenuous to say the least.

if you think the equipment we see in training and real world Ops is adequate for the level of per capita income india has (like that means much here) then own that and stand your ground, don’t start playing this bait and switch game.

i wish to god they did have some hidden capabilities but their real world performance tells the true story, a patrol to contact in broad daylight resulting in a complete wipeout is evidence enough.

i actually wonder how many 1% quality men have to be sacrificed before some wake up and smell the coffee, at times like this it feels like it’s never happening. Not only do you have people actively justifying this sorry state but the people in charge are themselves destroying any SOF capability that may have once existed-expanding personnel numbers beyond all capability to equip or train to SF standards and opening up to women.

all these boys get is applause for their deaths, what a sad society

 

[abingdonboy]

he is so one track minded. probably came from some of those facebook fan pages. he has no idea. it took me solid 5 years to even post my first comment here. I read topics here without logging in just to get an idea of the things that are discussed. like you said, the SF shortcomings are interconnected that one cannot discuss one without the other. a jai ho dude won't get it.

Wise words here.

interconnected is spot on, some seem to think there’s a silver bullet coming and if these guys can just get the ‘right’ Gucci toys they’ll become tier 1 operators. It doesn’t work like that, in fact it’s almost the exact opposite.

 

[IndianEagle2000]

This stupid argument as always.

some of the best tactical shooters and equipment designers in the world have never served a day in their lives

some of the top top SOF units in the world have training modules run by 100% civilians with no military background

garbage is garbage, you don’t need to be a 20 year pro to recognise it. Literally from head to toe the equipment of these guys is pathetic, almost everything you can see, by extension their training is subpar and hence their overall capabilities questionable

Plenty of the pros speak as you do and continue to believe they are better than the best despite all contrary information and that’s a sure recipe for repeated failures.

who is going to take the blame the next time another PARA team is wiped out? It’s happened repeatedly now.

you’d have thought the ‘we know better’ crowd would’ve taken a break after the reality of this incident became clear. Even a regular light infantry squad of most militaries would’ve fared better

Why do you think it happens thought ? The people who have served in the SF, don't they give any inputs. Under General Hooda surgical strike happened, didn't they feel the need to upgrade their equipment after that.

They see the shortcomings of the equipments for the Para & the consequences that follows. But refuse to make ammends. There must be a really the reason for that.

The picture of Para in full gear was half decent. If they get more funds they will get better equipments. I think funds is the main issue that plaques the Indian Army.

Now people can say India is 5th largest economy bla bla. But do you know. Indian Physicist from IISC Bengalore are complaining on SM how their funds are not being released even after being sanctioned. I presume the problem is multisectoral.

 

[abingdonboy]

Why do you think it happens thought ? The people who have served in the SF, don't they give any inputs. Under General Hooda surgical strike happened, didn't they feel the need to upgrade their equipment after that.

They see the shortcomings of the equipments for the Para & the consequences that follows. But refuse to make ammends. There must be a really the reason for that.

The picture of Para in full gear was half decent. If they get more funds they will get better equipments. I think funds is the main issue that plaques the Indian Army.

Now people can say India is 5th largest economy bla bla. But do you know. Indian Physicist are complaining on SM how their funds are not being released even after being sanctioned. I presume the problem is multisectoral.

Okay money is part of the problem sure, especially in the army where >90% of their entire budget (>$20bn USD) is spent on salaries and pensions.

BUT it’s not the entire explanation, in fact countries with limited budgets have often been able to overcome CAPEX restrictions with superior training and innovation- the U.K. is a pretty good example of that. The IDF in fact has through much of its history been there weaker force in terms of quality of equipment.

there’s a real culture issue inside leadership (military and civilian), go back through this thread and there’s plenty of discussion on that. Officers chasing status/benefits whilst simultaneously acting like babus and trying to dupe civilian masters with ‘all is well’ performance indicators coupled with a general sentiment that life is cheap amongst politicians in india is a toxic blend.

what incentive is there to change? Are the incentive structures more inclined to be transformative or careerist and status quo seeking? What has become of the ‘mavericks’ over the years who have tried to bring about changes? Have they won out or does the deep state always get its way?

the MoD is notoriously opaque so a good example of recent times is the T18 project, the games Played against that project and the champions of it on the inside are truly breathtaking

Add on top of of this a population that generally pays no attention to these matters and is in their own way utterly duped by a entertainment industry that feeds them masala and not accurate depictions of anything let alone military matters.

 

[IndianEagle2000]

can this thread PLEASE move beyond the ‘they have a super secret stash of Gucci gear they use for all their real Ops’? It is disingenuous to say the least.

if you think the equipment we see in training and real world Ops is adequate for the level of per capita income india has (like that means much here) then own that and stand your ground, don’t start playing this bait and switch game.

i wish to god they did have some hidden capabilities but their real world performance tells the true story, a patrol to contact in broad daylight resulting in a complete wipeout is evidence enough.

i actually wonder how many 1% quality men have to be sacrificed before some wake up and smell the coffee, at times like this it feels like it’s never happening. Not only do you have people actively justifying this sorry state but the people in charge are themselves destroying any SOF capability that may have once existed-expanding personnel numbers beyond all capability to equip or train to SF standards and opening up to women.

all these boys get is applause for their deaths, what a sad society

The fact of the matter is I have never argued against the suboptimal equipment of Para. I accept it & I know it has to be improved.

I only pointed to the fact that, member here seem to have this habit of jumping on to the next best thing to bitch about. Some members just dunked the equipment debate (barring you) just to keep the pot boiling.

 

[Kumaoni]

There is noting I would want more than being proved by our SF that we are wrong about everything we say about them here .
But all the past and recent incident have only proved that we are somewhat right....
Be it Lk Goswamy's incident or recent ambushes..

Lol dude was involved in 10 terrorists and he himself went down after eliminating two terrorists, something more than your entire bloodline could do

 

[Kumaoni]

Okay money is part of the problem sure, especially in the army where >90% of their entire budget (>$20bn USD) is spent on salaries and pensions.

BUT it’s not the entire explanation, in fact countries with limited budgets have often been able to overcome CAPEX restrictions with superior training and innovation- the U.K. is a pretty good example of that. The IDF in fact has through much of its history been there weaker force in terms of quality of equipment.

there’s a real culture issue inside leadership (military and civilian), go back through this thread and there’s plenty of discussion on that. Officers chasing status/benefits whilst simultaneously acting like babus and trying to dupe civilian masters with ‘all is well’ performance indicators coupled with a general sentiment that life is cheap amongst politicians in india is a toxic blend.

More than money IMO is the organization. The IA is getting more disorganized as the years progress due to various lobbies, politics.

Paras individual soldiers punch above their weight given the circumstances andhand they are dealt, but the real blame is those in charge of the Para battalions. Why are they not protesting for better equipment?

 

[Kumaoni]

can this thread PLEASE move beyond the ‘they have a super secret stash of Gucci gear they use for all their real Ops’? It is disingenuous to say the least.

if you think the equipment we see in training and real world Ops is adequate for the level of per capita income india has (like that means much here) then own that and stand your ground, don’t start playing this bait and switch game.

i wish to god they did have some hidden capabilities but their real world performance tells the true story, a patrol to contact in broad daylight resulting in a complete wipeout is evidence enough.

i actually wonder how many 1% quality men have to be sacrificed before some wake up and smell the coffee, at times like this it feels like it’s never happening. Not only do you have people actively justifying this sorry state but the people in charge are themselves destroying any SOF capability that may have once existed-expanding personnel numbers beyond all capability to equip or train to SF standards and opening up to women.

all these boys get is applause for their deaths, what a sad society

I think you are being too harsh on 9 Para here, this is the first time they suffered such loss in a very long time

 

[abingdonboy]

More than money IMO is the organization. The IA is getting more disorganized as the years progress due to various lobbies, politics.

no question, the more money is thrown at them the more antagonistic the empire builders get and the more incentive there is to create artificial scarcity

The current expansion of the SF battalions was done at the behest of airborne officers and flies in the face of the Kargil committee’s recommendations.

to think these things are purely done out of ignorance is far too accommodating, there’s sheer malicious intent at work.

SF are the latest victims, watching the ATAGS, Arjun, LCH, LCA, INSAS etc etc sagas and the agenda is very clear. There is no money to be made in solving problems inside the MoD, I mean that literally and figuratively. A few weeks back I came to know one of the flashiest guys I know who struts around here in the U.K. in designer gear from head to toe, drives a brand new BMW X3 etc etc has senior Indian army officers as relatives, his parents have normal middle class jobs, so you do the maths.

 

[abingdonboy]

I think you are being too harsh on 9 Para here, this is the first time they suffered such loss in a very long time

The body rots from the head, expecting any unit to be immune to the wider sabotage of capabilities is immature imho

 

[Kumaoni]

no question, the more money is thrown at them the more antagonistic the empire builders get and the more incentive there is to create artificial scarcity

The current expansion of the SF battalions was done at the behest of airborne officers and flies in the face of the Kargil committee’s recommendations.

to think these things are purely done out of ignorance is far too accommodating, there’s sheer malicious intent at work.

SF are the latest victims, watching the ATAGS, Arjun, LCH, LCA, INSAS etc etc sagas and the agenda is very clear. There is no money to be made in solving problems inside the MoD, I mean that literally and figuratively. A few weeks back I came to know one of the flashiest guys I know who struts around here in the U.K. in designer gear from head to toe, drives a brand new BMW X3 etc etc has senior Indian army officers as relatives, his parents have normal middle class jobs, so you do the maths.

The expansion of SF was wholly immature and totally uncalled for. What was the purpose? And what has been achieved? There is no shame in having regular airborne infantry just remove the “SF” tag is all I ask. Only 4 para BTns deserve this tag IMO.

The body rots from the head, expecting any unit to be immune to the wider sabotage of capabilities is immature imho

No doubt that this should be worrisome, but then again imo it’s too early to call. It was a patrol of 5 young jawans who gave it their all in insufferable and impossible odds.

 

[abingdonboy]

Helicopter intradiction by SSG
View attachment 207538
(Looks like a fan edit there may be chances that it is some western SF videos being passed on as Pakistani )

Any images/video of us doing this type of shit..

Sause

Desi tactical units in general are utter dog s*** when it comes to contemporary standards but SSG’s here were demonstrating some tactical drills that PARA SF seem to lack themselves, the kill house stuff and night firing seems like a particular difference- SSG all seemed to have PEQ-15s in that clip (not saying this is force wide)

Of course this could be their own Godzillagate but if it isn’t then it’s not that surprising to see Paras fall even further behind equipment and even tactics/training wise.

of course SSG are the same boys that get their backsides whooped by Talibanis, farmers and Indian infantry alike.

like I said- where desis are concerned theirs no particularly impressive capabilities anywhwre in the sub continent

 

[abingdonboy]

The expansion of SF was wholly immature and totally uncalled for. What was the purpose? And what has been achieved? There is no shame in having regular airborne infantry just remove the “SF” tag is all I ask. Only 4 para BTns deserve this tag IMO.

Airborne officers wanted more perks that the SF would afford them

some genius in IA HQ thought this would be a great thing to add on their end of year performance review (increased para SF capability by 25%)

simultaneously IA HQ gets their long cherished dream of sabotaging the SOCOM/AFSOD that was to take away certain strategic mandates from their chain of command

. It was a patrol of 5 young jawans who gave it their all in insufferable and impossible odds.

I would never argue with that but

1) the scoreboard is all that matters at the end of the day, no amount of qualifying the outcome matters (inexperienced/caught by surprise/etc) ESPECIALLY in this context- if we are to believe the myth that 9/4/21(?) are somehow ’elite’ SF battalions then launching a botched patrol to contact in daylight highlights the mess the entire force is in

2) isn’t it confirmed that some of the team were quite seasoned operators and some were even from the top men team of NSG in previous tours? Besides when anyone is sent on a mission their experience is irrelevant, they are either ready or they aren’t.

 

[Kumaoni]

1) the scoreboard is all that matters at the end of the day, no amount of qualifying the outcome matters (inexperienced/caught by surprise/etc) ESPECIALLY in this context- if we are to believe the myth that 9/4/21(?) are somehow ’elite’ SF battalions then launching a botched patrol to contact in daylight highlights the mess the entire force is in

Context of the ambush is equally important in being able to understand the root cause of the issue. The patrol was caught by surprise. Why did this happen? This has been happening since the start of the insurgency. This happening to regular infantry battalions can be expected as they are the main arm of the war, and casualties are to be expected, buy what is fucking SF doing jobs that regular RR men are capable of performing? 9 Paras operations back then in Kashmir were far more sophisticated and organized, from what alt Gen Prakash Katoch seems to say, and the decline of the Indian SF only really began in the 2000s following the unconventional use of 9 para in Kargil. The decline in SF quality is noticeably visible. IMO the only battalions that should be SF are 9,10, and 21. It’s OKAY if the others aren’t SF, they did fine in ‘71 as regular airborne infantry.

Also, unrelated, but all this talk of “naya India naya Hindustan” under “BJP”. What exactly “new” has come. Army is still the same as it was in the 90s. If anything its quality has gone down significantly.

Kill ratio average (4.5:1) is still the same.The ratios are actually as low as they were in the late 90, which was 1.8:1 in 99.

several beheading incidents left unavenged. Hell even the UPA gov avenged two beheading attack (2008 and Ginger in 2011)

Global humiliation of Indian soldiers Being photographed by the enemy (Galwan, Abhinandan) with ZERO, I repeat ZERO response.

VERY LITTLE modernization of the armed forces. The only chief that actually seemed to care (Gen Bipin Rawat) was killed off by you know who.

Opening to women in armed forces under different physical requirements, then on top of that fucking photographing them like they are regular frontline soldiers.

What “naya India” is this? And thenthey will mention surgical strikes like regular infantrymen weren’t doing those inback in the late 90s/ early 2000s.

seriously this is absolutely pathetic.

Airborne officers wanted more perks that the SF would afford them

some genius in IA HQ thought this would be a great thing to add on their end of year performance review (increased para SF capability by 25%)

simultaneously IA HQ gets their long cherished dream of sabotaging the SOCOM/AFSOD that was to take away certain strategic mandates from their chain of command

IA politics are brutal. Rajouri 2023 should be a wake up.

 

[Kumaoni]

I sitll don’t get the fucking point of making every damn Para battalion SF. They were doing JUST FINE as regular paratroopers in 47 and even 65. It’s so fucking annoying to me how such potential was squandered by corruption. Really starting to lose more hope day and day.

 

[jai jaganath]

I sitll don’t get the fucking point of making every damn Para battalion SF. They were doing JUST FINE as regular paratroopers in 47 and even 65. It’s so fucking annoying to me how such potential was squandered by corruption. Really starting to lose more hope day and day.

Last I heard was bcoz of protest of airborne troops regarding equal pay and treatment with SF
So this is the bogus reason

 

[airborneCommando]

.some guys even had their radios down below on their PCs which reduces the reception of RF.


hearing this for the first time. source for this? foreign sof place their radios on their waist. I don;t think it causes any hindrance in reception of RF.

Foreign sof use antenna relocation kits and whip antennas, the antenna recieves best when its tip is at shoulder height. Look at MARCOs during the same event. For stubby antennas, make sure your body isn't hindering the antenna, war belt and on the back of the PC is good. However, for operations in packed and confined MOUT like enviornments, its pretty OK to keep your radio anywhere.
Will include radio placement and stuff in the thread i promised earlier.

 

[Kumaoni]

Lol dude was involved in 10 terrorists and he himself went down after eliminating two terrorists, something more than your entire bloodline could do

Involved in eliminating* in 3 operations. Big typo here