Indian Special Forces

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

None offense taken but
This Is there JOB
SF are just Specialised Infantry that is trained for Specialised jobs based on intel
That paves way for large scale future military operations

Same is for Delta or SAS they achieved nothing special for US or NATO army in terms of operational level at any war they fought ww2,Vietnam, Gulfwar,Afghanistan, Iraq

War was one by regular Infantry and regular Marines.
Air power and Armoured thrust.

SF are just smaller tools in broader aspect of warfare.

If you asked me SF concept itself is Over exaggerated myth
Created by Militaries as tool for physiological warfare on enemies.

But there operational results are mixed.

Para SF is nothing Special than a RR infantry battalion

Same way A Delta or a Green baret is nothing special over Regular 506 th Infantry division in a broader scope of warfare.

Ok take no offense.

But your mindset is pre 1985.

In todays battlefield a SF unit supported by a Psy ops unit can do things even brigades of Armoured tanks cannot achieve.

The real job of SF is to be behind enemy lines looking like you and me.

What should be in Kashmir was Commandos.Commandos should be a less intellectual version of SF.

SF operators should be a psy ops expert, language expert in enemy language also in Islam if i talk about Pakistan.

But i say again for the millionth time that NO Indian Army officer does that role from SF.

People who are doing this are from Police background or MI.

These easy kills to get medals shouldn't be the case for Para SF.They should be doing bigger things.

Air power and Armoured thrust wars are over because of nuclear umbrella.

LAC is the biggest example of that and even if it happens it will be a really short one.

 

[WARREN SS]

Ok take no offense.

But your mindset is pre 1985.

That is because there is hardly one real war Fought by western units that was Iraq war after Vietnam

In todays battlefield a SF unit supported by a Psy ops unit can do things even brigades of Armoured tanks cannot achieve.

The real job of SF is to be behind enemy lines looking like you and me.

What should be in Kashmir was Commandos. Commandos should be a less intellectual version of SF.

Sure Only Because Today we are In Age of Insurgency And asymmetrical or Unconventional warfare
where we are not in direct conflict with Adversary military

In real war

A Brigade of tanks And regiment of Artillery Can Annihilate A city Like Lahore in matter of hours While simultaneously taking out Adversaries units And Civilian resistance that is Why Strike corps are created for.

Real wars are Not theatre based Limited ops its is Broader Aspect of warfare

SF operators should be a psy ops expert, language expert in enemy language also in Islam if i talk about Pakistan.

But i say again for the millionth time that NO Indian Army officer does that role from SF.

All these Training Are given to Infantry units in Belgaum And infantry school in HAWS or CITJWS. Normal RR battalions has these Experts Since late 90's


PS: I am All For Development of SF But not for exaggerating there roles. They are Specialized units for Special roles Like every unit in Military. A Corps of Signals or EME core is As important in military warfare as infantry units or SOF in All Our Wars from 1947 or in Every war

 

[Vishalreddy3]

I don’t think this would actually work as they will return to the same machine that has produced the dismal results we see today. Garbage in= garbage out.

This is a cultural issue to its core and we are only ever talking about the symptoms

I didn’t used to believe it but I think the ISI has won- they have achieved what they wanted to. They wanted to bleed India by a thousand cuts and keep it bogged down in Kashmir at the cost of focusing elsewhere.

the Indian army (the other 2 services have gladly been almost entirely spared which is no small miracle) has become almost entirely COIN focused. This is where their combat arms sharpen their teeth, this is the operational experience all of its senior leadership have.

Instead of focusing on strategic missions or thinking of the bigger picture >50% of India’s army is focusing on one tiny state/valley and the other 50% are now orientating to defend a barren remote line in the sand to the East.

I’ve used the example before but I have to say it again- before 2015 (Myanmar surgical strikes) PARA SF battalions hadn’t trained to operate at a battalion level for possibly professional generations. This was because of the enormous burden put on SF btns for COIN ops in JK and the NE. And we don’t know if the SF battalion training that started to occur post 2015 sustains to this day or if it fizzled out after the 2016 SS as operational commitments took hold once again.


COIN mindset (winning hearts and minds/minimum force) has infected the entire IA, their warrior culture is now wrapped up in handing out toys to local Kashmiris and not stomping on the face of the enemy. 10-20 years in Afghanistan/Iraq battered the ISAF/NATO armies and caused a dilution of their capabilities that they are now actively trying to re-establish. What do we think it has done to the IA that has been in this fight for 40+ years?


So the answer to this mess may not even lay inside MoD at all but MHA. CRPF needs to take FULL control of the JK and NE COIN requirements, RR needs to be disbanded or at the very least reduced to perhaps 50% of its size today and only employed to support CRPF/CAPFs. Trim the fat on the IA, theaterise and reorient them as strategic OFFENSIVE assets not freaking border guards/law enforcement

Instead of disbanding RR turn it into a paramilitary organisation under MHA, like originally its supposed to be. This will definitely improve their capabilities and procurements and a dedicated go to COIN ops team throughout the country.

 

[rkhanna]

I can quote you almost better operations carried out by Simple Infantary units in.Same wars

They are decorated For theatre Operations.

SOF only did specialized operational
Which had limited impact of few theater in war not war as whole every Unit has its own special area of operations.
Even Signal Regiment

SAS ops are very limited in whole aspect of war
They only used for intel collection
And initial assaults and weapons Support

While first major assault was conducted by
Parachute regiment
And 3rd commando brigade with SBS teams

The covering fire was provided by Navy
Code name operation Sutton

Operation Sutton - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Infact Air power and Naval power was
Conducted 60-70% of the all operational aspect in Falklands

Units like Gurkha not given opportunity who were desperate for actions


US invasion of Panama

These are many units that were part Panama theater
You can see SOF units are only 10 % of what actual warfightimg forces in Panama.and even less real operations

The U.S. Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines, and Coast Guard participated in Operation Just Cause. Ground forces consisted of :

• combat elements of the XVIII Airborne Corps,
• the 82nd Airborne Division,
• the 7th Infantry Division (Light),
• the 7th Special Forces Group (Airborne),
• the 75th Ranger Regiment,
• Tactical Air Control Parties from the 507th and 602nd Tactical Air Control Wings and the 24th Composite Wing[33]
• Combat Controllers from the 1721st Combat Control Squadron
• a Joint Special Operations Task Force,
• elements of the 5th Infantry Division
  • 1st Battalion, 61st Infantry Regiment
  • 4th Battalion, 6th Infantry Regiment (replacing 1/61st in September 1989),
• 16th Military Police Brigade (Airborne), Ft Bragg NC
• 503rd Military Police Battalion (Airborne), Ft Bragg NC
• 21st Military Police Company (Airborne), Ft Bragg NC
• 65th Military Police Company, Ft Bragg NC
• 108th Military Police Company (Air Assault), Ft Bragg NC
• 519th Military Police Battalion
• 1138th Military Police Company, Missouri Army National Guard
• 988th Military Police Company, Ft Benning, GA
• 555th Military Police Company, Ft Lee, VA
• 193rd Infantry Brigade
  • 5th Battalion, 87th Infantry Regiment
  • 1st Battalion, 508th Infantry Regiment
• 8th Ordnance Company (Ammo), Ft Bragg, NC (Select detachment attached to SOUTHCOM)
• Marine Security Forces Battalion Panama,
• Company K, 3rd Battalion, 6th Marines Regiment,
• Marine Fleet Antiterrorism Security Teams,
• 2nd Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion,
• 2nd Marine Logistics Group 39th Combat Engineer Battalion Co C.
• 511th Military Police Company, Ft Drum NY
• 1097th Transportation Company (Medium Boat), Fort Davis, Panama

Like in every war Infantary role undermined to
For SOF propaganda.

Many part of Front line assaults are substituted by
Machines today like drones

All The roles by SOF are specialized and practically
Initial and theater based intel collections roles

I can quote you 10 times more operations carried out by US Infantry battalions and Marine corps in
Gulf war

The serious warfighting is Done by Infantry units
With support of Airborne and Airforce elements

SOF practically has limited role for which they trained for.

You can't expect SOF to fight whole enemy
Armoured or mechanized armoured thrust
Or there MBRL barrage or Artillery

Like every Unit of military there role is Specialised
And Theatre driven
What they get is better PR and Propaganda
And over exaggeration by media.

That is used for physiological warfare

Special Operations is not just shooters on the ground

Example:
Psyops is sprcial operations
Cyber warefare /EW is special operations
160th SOAR is special.operatio s


Volume is always there for the larger military who pursue tactical objectives.

Special operations is about pursuing strategic objectives with a far far smaller footprint. The risk reward relationship is completely different for every dollar spent

 

[WARREN SS]

Special Operations is not just shooters on the ground

Example:
Psyops is sprcial operations
Cyber warefare /EW is special operations
160th SOAR is special.operatio s


Volume is always there for the larger military who pursue tactical objectives.

Special operations is about pursuing strategic objectives with a far far smaller footprint. The risk reward relationship is completely different for every dollar spent

I Understand there Role But People Should understand Every military unit has Specialized role in there Aspect of warfare

Civil Humint Units Will Do there jobs,SIGINT Units Will Do there jobs ,And ELINT Will do there Jobs In fact Infantry Units Can Be Specialized For Any Role For Any theatre of Warfare.Provide them Training And material cost & logistical support .

Even Diplomats has there Role Fixed .

In Last 2 Decades Media And movies Negated the Role of Broader Aspect of Military operations
They just Focused It on SOF And Its Role Majority of its Part Played by Hollywood. Make these SOF Look Like Some kind Of Super Soldiers

But Fact Is They are Just Another Unit in broader Military Warfare theatre like Any other Specialized units

 

[rkhanna]

Understand there Role But People Should understand Every military unit has Specialized role in there Aspect of warfare

Ofcourse.

The difference is ALWAYS in tasking. Convetional units - Artillery, SIGINT, Infantry, Armour will always serve the tactical theater. Few criterias of conventional units is their inability to be flexible to a changing battle space - they are most successful when executing orders to the letter T. They cannot operate detached from their main Combined Arms Formations. These guys are pure specialist and their skills cannot be mixed and matched

Special Operations Units will serve the Strategy Objective - to complete tasks within the same battlespace that the similar conventional unit does not have the capability to do so. they will have a shorter C&C, they will be more fluid, they will be faster to deploy and 1 unit can do the task of multiple specialized units.

Example a single ODA detachment left alone in the wild with precises CAS taskings can do AD, SIGINT, EW, Building up Civilian Infrastructure, build up local partner forces and secure an area that an entire division would take.

Like i have said calling an Light Infantry unit SOF just because of a tough selection doesnt make them sure. Its always in their employment.

as another example just look at the gradual change in fortunes of ISIS via its controlled terroritory. the Americans beefed up their support for the Kurds and other anti ISIS groups. The Russian GRU SF units beefed up the Syrian Military.

Look at the Paki SSG/ISI - they have managed to bleed India for over 30 years now by training and sending illiterate children with guns by filling their heads with songs of glory.

look at what the US/UK/Pak SOF units were able to accomplish against the Soviets in Afghanistan.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

That is because there is hardly one real war Fought by western units that was Iraq war after Vietnam

Sure Only Because Today we are In Age of Insurgency And asymmetrical or Unconventional warfare
where we are not in direct conflict with Adversary military

In real war

A Brigade of tanks And regiment of Artillery Can Annihilate A city Like Lahore in matter of hours While simultaneously taking out Adversaries units And Civilian resistance that is Why Strike corps are created for.

Real wars are Not theatre based Limited ops its is Broader Aspect of warfare

Psy ops can make a human chain around the city with media covering the event and the tanks would never go through.

This happens regularly in kashmir with stone pelting.

All these Training Are given to Infantry units in Belgaum And infantry school in HAWS or CITJWS. Normal RR battalions has these Experts Since late 90's


PS: I am All For Development of SF But not for exaggerating there roles. They are Specialized units for Special roles Like every unit in Military. A Corps of Signals or EME core is As important in military warfare as infantry units or SOF in All Our Wars from 1947 or in Every war

No RR is given Psy ops or language training.

 

[WARREN SS]

Special Operations Units will serve the Strategy Objective - to complete tasks within the same battlespace that the similar conventional unit does not have the capability to do so. they will have a shorter C&C, they will be more fluid, they will be faster to deploy and 1 unit can do the task of multiple specialized units.

Please Mention One Such operational role in Combat Which infantry cannot Do Infact Shock troops And Scouters Are created For these Roles only.

Remember SF are just create In last 70 years or So in Warfare before that All major Warfare operations were done by Normal military Units And Airbone units Kindly Study WW1 And Ww2

Like i have said calling an Light Infantry unit SOF just because of a tough selection doesnt make them sure. Its always in their employment.

Infact as the Role of convectional Warfare is Shirked in last 70 years that is Why Role SOF increased

 

[WARREN SS]

Psy ops can make a human chain around the city with media covering the event and the tanks would never go through.

This happens regularly in kashmir with stone pelting.

Because Its Not a Real war But insurgency

No RR is given Psy ops or language training.

FACULTY OF FOREIGN LANGUAGES
This faculty is responsible for imparting training in foreign languages viz Chinese, Tibetan, Dzongkha (Bhutanese), Sinhala, Burmese, Pushto, Persian, Arabic, Russian to personnel from AEC as well as from other Arms and Services.
The faculty is equipped with Modern Computer Aided Language Learning Labs (CALL Labs) with associated software’s to assist in making the Language Learning process much more effective and efficient.

The Official Home Page of the Indian Army

The latest news, images, videos, career information, and links from the Indian Army.

indianarmy.nic.in

.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Because Its Not a Real war But insurgency

FACULTY OF FOREIGN LANGUAGES
This faculty is responsible for imparting training in foreign languages viz Chinese, Tibetan, Dzongkha (Bhutanese), Sinhala, Burmese, Pushto, Persian, Arabic, Russian to personnel from AEC as well as from other Arms and Services.
The faculty is equipped with Modern Computer Aided Language Learning Labs (CALL Labs) with associated software’s to assist in making the Language Learning process much more effective and efficient.

The Official Home Page of the Indian Army

The latest news, images, videos, career information, and links from the Indian Army.

indianarmy.nic.in

.

AEC is Army education corps not RR.

 

[WARREN SS]

AEC is Army education corps not RR.

Its Military School Its Like HAWS,CIWJS others Open For Every Unit Even SF
personnel from AEC as well as from other Arms and Services

 

[rkhanna]

SF are just create In last 70 years or So in Warfare before that All major Warfare operations were done by Normal military Units And Airbone units Kindly Study WW1 And Ww2

I have studied both world wars is great detail and have written papers on them

The first offical use of special operations type forces in modern jargon was by the Nazis - the Brandenburg brigade.

In WWII parachute units or commando units WERE the special operations troopa for that era.

There were Darbys Rangers, the birth of the SAS in Africa and a host of other units across the European battlefield.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Its Military School Its Like HAWS,CIWJS others Open For Every Unit Even SF
personnel from AEC as well as from other Arms and Services

HAWS dont teach langauge..RR personnel doesnt have language specialists apart from JAKLI guys.

 

[WARREN SS]

HAWS dont teach langauge..RR personnel doesnt have language specialists apart from JAKLI guys.

Never said that
HAWS is Specialized School open for Every unit.

I Said AEC Work on Same principle

The AEC Training College & Centre conducts a variety of courses for personnel of Army, Navy, Air Force, Para Military Forces(CAPF) and Friendly Foreign Countries in domains of Instructional Methodology, Map Craft, Martial Music, Foreign Languages, Regional Languages, Information Technology and English. Various Faculties & Departments of AEC Training College & Centre.

Anybody can Apply in AEC its Open for all in Army units like Para selection

Same Way The Army War College, Mhow (A.W.C.) is Best Military institution In India For War Studies Courses are offered For All Even SS Shekhawat Did his research there after controversy

 

[ALBY]

I can quote you almost better operations carried out by Simple Infantary units in.Same wars

They are decorated For theatre Operations.

SOF only did specialized operational
Which had limited impact of few theater in war not war as whole every Unit has its own special area of operations.
Even Signal Regiment

SAS ops are very limited in whole aspect of war
They only used for intel collection
And initial assaults and weapons Support

While first major assault was conducted by
Parachute regiment
And 3rd commando brigade with SBS teams

The covering fire was provided by Navy
Code name operation Sutton

Operation Sutton - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Infact Air power and Naval power was
Conducted 60-70% of the all operational aspect in Falklands

Units like Gurkha not given opportunity who were desperate for actions


US invasion of Panama

These are many units that were part Panama theater
You can see SOF units are only 10 % of what actual warfightimg forces in Panama.and even less real operations

The U.S. Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines, and Coast Guard participated in Operation Just Cause. Ground forces consisted of :

• combat elements of the XVIII Airborne Corps,
• the 82nd Airborne Division,
• the 7th Infantry Division (Light),
• the 7th Special Forces Group (Airborne),
• the 75th Ranger Regiment,
• Tactical Air Control Parties from the 507th and 602nd Tactical Air Control Wings and the 24th Composite Wing[33]
• Combat Controllers from the 1721st Combat Control Squadron
• a Joint Special Operations Task Force,
• elements of the 5th Infantry Division
  • 1st Battalion, 61st Infantry Regiment
  • 4th Battalion, 6th Infantry Regiment (replacing 1/61st in September 1989),
• 16th Military Police Brigade (Airborne), Ft Bragg NC
• 503rd Military Police Battalion (Airborne), Ft Bragg NC
• 21st Military Police Company (Airborne), Ft Bragg NC
• 65th Military Police Company, Ft Bragg NC
• 108th Military Police Company (Air Assault), Ft Bragg NC
• 519th Military Police Battalion
• 1138th Military Police Company, Missouri Army National Guard
• 988th Military Police Company, Ft Benning, GA
• 555th Military Police Company, Ft Lee, VA
• 193rd Infantry Brigade
  • 5th Battalion, 87th Infantry Regiment
  • 1st Battalion, 508th Infantry Regiment
• 8th Ordnance Company (Ammo), Ft Bragg, NC (Select detachment attached to SOUTHCOM)
• Marine Security Forces Battalion Panama,
• Company K, 3rd Battalion, 6th Marines Regiment,
• Marine Fleet Antiterrorism Security Teams,
• 2nd Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion,
• 2nd Marine Logistics Group 39th Combat Engineer Battalion Co C.
• 511th Military Police Company, Ft Drum NY
• 1097th Transportation Company (Medium Boat), Fort Davis, Panama

Like in every war Infantary role undermined to
For SOF propaganda.

Many part of Front line assaults are substituted by
Machines today like drones

All The roles by SOF are specialized and practically
Initial and theater based intel collections roles

I can quote you 10 times more operations carried out by US Infantry battalions and Marine corps in
Gulf war

The serious warfighting is Done by Infantry units
With support of Airborne and Airforce elements

SOF practically has limited role for which they trained for.

You can't expect SOF to fight whole enemy
Armoured or mechanized armoured thrust
Or there MBRL barrage or Artillery

Like every Unit of military there role is Specialised
And Theatre driven
What they get is better PR and Propaganda
And over exaggeration by media.

That is used for physiological warfare

Whats your point? Everyone jnows every unit have their own plus and minuses and some roles onky they could do. But that doesnt mean you could compare an SF unit with a regular infantry and say SF is over rated and just pure propaganda. Dont know what triggered you to say so.
I am sure a full fledged Para SF battalion could do any task which could be mandated to another pure infantry like Madras or Gorkhas like doing a frontal attack or holding ground or doing door to door street fighting . But vice versa is not possible especially to do either an intel collection op, HVT elimination deep inside enemy territory or hostage rescue op.

 

[Vishalreddy3]

I have studied both world wars is great detail and have written papers on them

The first offical use of special operations type forces in modern jargon was by the Nazis - the Brandenburg brigade.

In WWII parachute units or commando units WERE the special operations troopa for that era.

There were Darbys Rangers, the birth of the SAS in Africa and a host of other units across the European battlefield.

Before that the Germans before Nazis in WW1 used Sturmtruppen or stormtroopers which is the first of a kind SOF ahead of its time!! People say modern day Special Operations Forces were modeled after SAS, but British themselves took inspiration from the Germans. Plus the first ever use and popularisation of using Parachute units or Paratroopers behind enemy lines were the Soviets.

 

[WARREN SS]

Whats your point? Everyone jnows every unit have their own plus and minuses and some roles onky they could do. But that doesnt mean you could compare an SF unit with a regular infantry and say SF is over rated and just pure propaganda. Dont know what triggered you to say so.
I am sure a full fledged Para SF battalion could do any task which could be mandated to another pure infantry like Madras or Gorkhas like doing a frontal attack or holding ground or doing door to door street fighting . But vice versa is not possible especially to do either an intel collection op, HVT elimination deep inside enemy territory or hostage rescue op.

Well nothing Triggered Me I just Presented Facts that SOF are Just Modern Aspect of Military Warfare As Convectional Military's Wars Scope are Shrinking They Will To be Replaced by Standoff PGM's And Drones in Future warfare.

PARA SF has Role of Specialized ops like any other Unit of Military. Any Infantry Units If given Task And Logistics support And operational orders To perform Surgical strikes based on Intelligence based ops they Will Do it .They Did its many Times In the Past It was 8th Battalion JKLI that captured Quaid Top on Saltaro ridge .It was Infantry And RR Which Won Us CI War against ISI Militants groups.Its Infantry that Took Kargil Strategic Peaks in Khalobar,Three pimple And Tiger hill.

@rkhanna Given example of SBS role in Falklands war But there Equal Important Role shared by Every Unit in that War And It was Complete British army victory.

 

[rkhanna]

Well nothing Triggered Me I just Presented Facts that SOF are Just Modern Aspect of Military Warfare As Convectional Military's Wars Scope are Shrinking They Will To be Replaced by Standoff PGM's And Drones in Future warfare.

PARA SF has Role of Specialized ops like any other Unit of Military. Any Infantry Units If given Task And Logistics support And operational orders To perform Surgical strikes based on Intelligence based ops they Will Do it .They Did its many Times In the Past It was 8th Battalion JKLI that captured Quaid Top on Saltaro ridge .It was Infantry And RR Which Won Us CI War against ISI Militants groups.Its Infantry that Took Kargil Strategic Peaks in Khalobar,Three pimple And

@rkhanna Given example of SBS role in Falklands war But there Equal Important Role shared by Every Unit in that War And It was Complete British army victory.

View attachment 79335

Not understanding your point. A military cannot be made up.only of SOF units. It takes a military to win a war.

This being a SOF thread we are only speaking of the SOF spectrum of war fighting.

The difference in the 21st Century warfare with non state actors and a new cold war brewing the role of 1x SOF unit is even more critical to the national policy objective than 1x tank regiment.

The efficiency and ORBAT mix has to change

 

[WARREN SS]

Not understanding your point. A military cannot be made up.only of SOF units. It takes a military to win a war.

This being a SOF thread we are only speaking of the SOF spectrum of war fighting.

The difference in the 21st Century warfare with non state actors and a new cold war brewing the role of 1x SOF unit is even more critical to the national policy objective than 1x tank regiment.

The efficiency and ORBAT mix has to change

Well My Point is on Broader Aspect of warfare.
Military Needs Over hall.

Point is Developing SOF culture Within Infantry Battalions Level itself From recruitment onwards . Re structuring From WW2 standards To 21st century at large scale.

Developing AF SOD Will Never Succeed until the Quality Of human Resource Its getting Will not Improve And That Is Reforming Indian Army Command And Leadership Pattern And Core Military Unit standards as a Whole.

 

[rkhanna]

Well My Point is on Broader Aspect of warfare.
Military Needs Over hall.

Point is Developing SOF culture Within Infantry Battalions Level itself From recruitment onwards . Re structuring From WW2 standards To 21st century at large scale.

Developing AF SOD Will Never Succeed until the Quality Of human Resource Its getting Will not Improve And That Is Reforming Indian Army Command And Leadership Pattern And Core Military Unit standards as a Whole.

Oh no doubt. I have said the exact same thing a few pages back. It has to be a top down military revolution - and each part has to fit into the national nal foriegn policy objective short term and long term.

Completely disagree of SOF within infantry battalions. We have to understand the demarcation between commando units and SOF units.