Indian Special Forces

[Aspirant847]

Please delete this post ASAP. Do not post information related to serving personnel's personal lives/details. IT WILL PUT THEM AND THEIR FAMILIES AT RISK, SHOULD IT FALL INTO THE WRONG HANDS. Do not post stuff like this again. @ALBY @ezsasa @hit&run @tarunraju

has stuff like that happened? Serving officers targeted for some ops they did?

 

[vampyrbladez]

Please delete this post ASAP. Do not post information related to serving personnel's personal lives/details. IT WILL PUT THEM AND THEIR FAMILIES AT RISK, SHOULD IT FALL INTO THE WRONG HANDS. Do not post stuff like this again. @ALBY @ezsasa @hit&run @tarunraju

Remove the quote. People can read the original message.

 

[Killbot]

has stuff like that happened? Serving officers targeted for some ops they did?

Yeah. Google Col Hunny Bakshi (retd), former CO of the now disbanded TSD. He is only 1 example. ISI made 4 attempts on his life.

 

[Killbot]

Remove the quote. People can read the original message.

Done

 

[ALBY]

My 2 Paisa. Impossible to update SOF units before getting an understanding of the modern day battle space as well as the entire eco system that puts shooters on target and gets them out.

1) Understanding leads to strategy
2) strategy leads to SOF doctrine
3) Doctrine leads to developing kit and tactics and units bases resources we have

With a proper process its the difference between having sex with a doll vs a human being to put it crassly.

For your article I would recommend reading the following

1) relentless strike
2) inside delta force
3) one perfect op
4) red cell.

Google on the Phlipino Light Combat Battalion / GROM / SK SOF experiences

Understand the difference between conventional war and asymmetrical war such as the GWOT

Read our own history in Lanka / Kashmir / NE

Find the Gaps in what we do. Search a solution

Could you please pm a link to read those books or to download

 

[rkhanna]

Could you please pm a link to read those books or to download

Haha yea sure. Out of the house right now. Will do in a bit.

 

[Killbot]

Haha yea sure. Out of the house right now. Will do in a bit.

Me too please.

 

[tomthounaojam]

@tomthounaojam
Please delete this post ASAP. Do not post information related to serving personnel's personal lives/details. IT WILL PUT THEM AND THEIR FAMILIES AT RISK, SHOULD IT FALL INTO THE WRONG HANDS. Do not post stuff like this again. @ALBY @ezsasa @hit&run @tarunraju

Anyway, his name is everywhere and we are proud of his service, we will do whatever to protect him, So, people don't assume everyone with an Asian feature fighting the Chinese as Tibetan as commented by some here, that assumption like that can get create more problems, assuming without knowing, Imagine this captain going without Uniform, will be called Momo, Chinkis even Chinese in ROI. Chills and carry on with your post, the post is also deleted as well.

 

[Killbot]

Anyway, his name is everywhere and we are proud of his service, we will do whatever to protect him, So, people don't assume everyone with an Asian feature fighting the Chinese as Tibetan as commented by some here, that assumption like that can get create more problems, assuming without knowing, Imagine this captain going without Uniform, will be called Momo, Chinkis even Chinese in ROI. Chills and carry on with your post, the post is also deleted as well.

Yeah.. We're all proud of our soldiers. No offense intended.

 

[samsaptaka]

The source also told me that, SG has been using comtacs (peltor ones) in limited numbers...JPCs are being standardized in SF and we even have bino NODs/NVGs in limited numbers (can't say about navy and Airforce)

God, how I hate this 'limited number' thing ! Are we an African militia or what.

 

[samsaptaka]

Its because we have our DNA like that.. early days we used to think elephants will save us in battles.Now we think it will be tanks.

Neither did elephants save Porus..nor will tanks save Kupwara.

LOL. Well technically Purushottam's elephants did extract a huge cost on Alexander and weakened him for subsequent battles....But I agree with you totally, but like @abingdonboy said money is not the problem, its the distribution

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

guys what action plan would you suggest for modernizing Para SF in the next decade? im planning to write an article on this topic but need to do extensive research so I need a branching off point. would like your inputs. @rkhanna @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR @abingdonboy @Gessler

I would suggest this..

Take out a SF battalion from deployment for an year.

Send it to a friendly country willing to share SF exposure.

Train them there and buy similar equipments for them.

Bring the experience back and cross train.

Same for Sniper school.

I would also suggest to offer people who fail NDA/ IMA exams repeatedly to be offered NCO jobs direct entry as it would enhance the education level of jawans.

Units should be utilising the peace time well.

Things like Bisleri Army and Goli chalti he hole karti he are making fun of your own knowledge and exposure only.

We have to make a lot of improvement in every field.

If u ask me and i will offend almost everyone by saying that as per me Para SF is at super infantry level and deployment..Rest of the SF are regular infantry level.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

has stuff like that happened? Serving officers targeted for some ops they did?

ya

 

[abingdonboy]

I would suggest this..

Take out a SF battalion from deployment for an year.

Send it to a friendly country willing to share SF exposure.

Train them there and buy similar equipments for them.

Bring the experience back and cross train.

Same for Sniper school.

I would also suggest to offer people who fail NDA/ IMA exams repeatedly to be offered NCO jobs direct entry as it would enhance the education level of jawans.

Units should be utilising the peace time well.

Things like Bisleri Army and Goli chalti he hole karti he are making fun of your own knowledge and exposure only.

We have to make a lot of improvement in every field.

If u ask me and i will offend almost everyone by saying that as per me Para SF is at super infantry level and deployment..Rest of the SF are regular infantry level.

I don’t think this would actually work as they will return to the same machine that has produced the dismal results we see today. Garbage in= garbage out.

This is a cultural issue to its core and we are only ever talking about the symptoms

I didn’t used to believe it but I think the ISI has won- they have achieved what they wanted to. They wanted to bleed India by a thousand cuts and keep it bogged down in Kashmir at the cost of focusing elsewhere.

the Indian army (the other 2 services have gladly been almost entirely spared which is no small miracle) has become almost entirely COIN focused. This is where their combat arms sharpen their teeth, this is the operational experience all of its senior leadership have.

Instead of focusing on strategic missions or thinking of the bigger picture >50% of India’s army is focusing on one tiny state/valley and the other 50% are now orientating to defend a barren remote line in the sand to the East.

I’ve used the example before but I have to say it again- before 2015 (Myanmar surgical strikes) PARA SF battalions hadn’t trained to operate at a battalion level for possibly professional generations. This was because of the enormous burden put on SF btns for COIN ops in JK and the NE. And we don’t know if the SF battalion training that started to occur post 2015 sustains to this day or if it fizzled out after the 2016 SS as operational commitments took hold once again.


COIN mindset (winning hearts and minds/minimum force) has infected the entire IA, their warrior culture is now wrapped up in handing out toys to local Kashmiris and not stomping on the face of the enemy. 10-20 years in Afghanistan/Iraq battered the ISAF/NATO armies and caused a dilution of their capabilities that they are now actively trying to re-establish. What do we think it has done to the IA that has been in this fight for 40+ years?


So the answer to this mess may not even lay inside MoD at all but MHA. CRPF needs to take FULL control of the JK and NE COIN requirements, RR needs to be disbanded or at the very least reduced to perhaps 50% of its size today and only employed to support CRPF/CAPFs. Trim the fat on the IA, theaterise and reorient them as strategic OFFENSIVE assets not freaking border guards/law enforcement

 

[WARREN SS]

I would suggest this..

Take out a SF battalion from deployment for an year.

Send it to a friendly country willing to share SF exposure.

Train them there and buy similar equipments for them.

Bring the experience back and cross train.

Same for Sniper school.

I would also suggest to offer people who fail NDA/ IMA exams repeatedly to be offered NCO jobs direct entry as it would enhance the education level of jawans.

Units should be utilising the peace time well.

Things like Bisleri Army and Goli chalti he hole karti he are making fun of your own knowledge and exposure only.

We have to make a lot of improvement in every field.

If u ask me and i will offend almost everyone by saying that as per me Para SF is at super infantry level and deployment..Rest of the SF are regular infantry level.

None offense taken but
This Is there JOB
SF are just Specialised Infantry that is trained for Specialised jobs based on intel
That paves way for large scale future military operations

Same is for Delta or SAS they achieved nothing special for US or NATO army in terms of operational level at any war they fought ww2,Vietnam, Gulfwar,Afghanistan, Iraq

War was one by regular Infantry and regular Marines.
Air power and Armoured thrust.

SF are just smaller tools in broader aspect of warfare.

If you asked me SF concept itself is Over exaggerated myth
Created by Militaries as tool for physiological warfare on enemies.

But there operational results are mixed.

Para SF is nothing Special than a RR infantry battalion

Same way A Delta or a Green baret is nothing special over Regular 506 th Infantry division in a broader scope of warfare.

 

[rkhanna]

Same is for Delta or SAS they achieved nothing special for US or NATO army in terms of operational level at any war they fought ww2,Vietnam, Gulfwar,Afghanistan, Iraq

Allow me to disagree.

The conclusions of the Pentagon and Rumfield were exactly the opposite which lead to the great SOCOM surge in the early days of the WOT.

Borneo/Falklands - SAS had tremendous impact in the outcome

Panama - Delta / DevGru tremendous impact

First gulf war - minimally utilizes took out the scuds in the desert - successful prevented the Israelis from joining the conflict

GWOT - dismantled the Iraqi / Taliban / AQ C&C preventing any serious fight back from the opfor and forced them into an insurgency. The normal' military then did it's job as an Occupying force. SOF prepped the battled field for them every single time.

Hell there is great story of how a delta company with 2 Abrams and 2 Apaches in support tricked an entire Republican Guard regiment to surrender

The Israeli SOF units allow Israel to go to war every day without actually mobilizing the whole country for it.

Whether they are super infantry or something else all depends on how they are utilised to achieve the strategic objectives from a national security policy perspective.

 

[samsaptaka]

I don’t think this would actually work as they will return to the same machine that has produced the dismal results we see today. Garbage in= garbage out.

This is a cultural issue to its core and we are only ever talking about the symptoms

I didn’t used to believe it but I think the ISI has won- they have achieved what they wanted to. They wanted to bleed India by a thousand cuts and keep it bogged down in Kashmir at the cost of focusing elsewhere.

the Indian army (the other 2 services have gladly been almost entirely spared which is no small miracle) has become almost entirely COIN focused. This is where their combat arms sharpen their teeth, this is the operational experience all of its senior leadership have.

Instead of focusing on strategic missions or thinking of the bigger picture >50% of India’s army is focusing on one tiny state/valley and the other 50% are now orientating to defend a barren remote line in the sand to the East.

I’ve used the example before but I have to say it again- before 2015 (Myanmar surgical strikes) PARA SF battalions hadn’t trained to operate at a battalion level for possibly professional generations. This was because of the enormous burden put on SF btns for COIN ops in JK and the NE. And we don’t know if the SF battalion training that started to occur post 2015 sustains to this day or if it fizzled out after the 2016 SS as operational commitments took hold once again.


COIN mindset (winning hearts and minds/minimum force) has infected the entire IA, their warrior culture is now wrapped up in handing out toys to local Kashmiris and not stomping on the face of the enemy. 10-20 years in Afghanistan/Iraq battered the ISAF/NATO armies and caused a dilution of their capabilities that they are now actively trying to re-establish. What do we think it has done to the IA that has been in this fight for 40+ years?


So the answer to this mess may not even lay inside MoD at all but MHA. CRPF needs to take FULL control of the JK and NE COIN requirements, RR needs to be disbanded or at the very least reduced to perhaps 50% of its size today and only employed to support CRPF/CAPFs. Trim the fat on the IA, theaterise and reorient them as strategic OFFENSIVE assets not freaking border guards/law enforcement

You've hit the nail on the centre of the head !

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

I don’t think this would actually work as they will return to the same machine that has produced the dismal results we see today. Garbage in= garbage out.

This is a cultural issue to its core and we are only ever talking about the symptoms

I didn’t used to believe it but I think the ISI has won- they have achieved what they wanted to. They wanted to bleed India by a thousand cuts and keep it bogged down in Kashmir at the cost of focusing elsewhere.

the Indian army (the other 2 services have gladly been almost entirely spared which is no small miracle) has become almost entirely COIN focused. This is where their combat arms sharpen their teeth, this is the operational experience all of its senior leadership have.

Instead of focusing on strategic missions or thinking of the bigger picture >50% of India’s army is focusing on one tiny state/valley and the other 50% are now orientating to defend a barren remote line in the sand to the East.

I’ve used the example before but I have to say it again- before 2015 (Myanmar surgical strikes) PARA SF battalions hadn’t trained to operate at a battalion level for possibly professional generations. This was because of the enormous burden put on SF btns for COIN ops in JK and the NE. And we don’t know if the SF battalion training that started to occur post 2015 sustains to this day or if it fizzled out after the 2016 SS as operational commitments took hold once again.


COIN mindset (winning hearts and minds/minimum force) has infected the entire IA, their warrior culture is now wrapped up in handing out toys to local Kashmiris and not stomping on the face of the enemy. 10-20 years in Afghanistan/Iraq battered the ISAF/NATO armies and caused a dilution of their capabilities that they are now actively trying to re-establish. What do we think it has done to the IA that has been in this fight for 40+ years?


So the answer to this mess may not even lay inside MoD at all but MHA. CRPF needs to take FULL control of the JK and NE COIN requirements, RR needs to be disbanded or at the very least reduced to perhaps 50% of its size today and only employed to support CRPF/CAPFs. Trim the fat on the IA, theaterise and reorient them as strategic OFFENSIVE assets not freaking border guards/law enforcement

Well this is a different debate altogether.

The thing is just like the Americans said India and Pakistan has WW2 military mindset just like PLA and many other Asian militaries.

The education i feel is lacking and hence no changes have been made.

Which is just like how bad the Indian Police is.Heirarcy is everything.

I ask what great feats has the Mobile infantry achieved?

Except ordering more and more tanks nothing else is ordered.

All these tanks in a proper war with a formidable mobile Army will burst like popcorns on a hot pan.

Look at people being so proud of TATA Safari in the PLA propoganda video on Twitter.Whenever i open Twitter i am not let down by self claimed idiots..ah i mean intellectuals.

Instead of having a proper vehicle like Sherpa we are celebrating Safari.And this is exactly the level of intellect of Army officers i think.

30 years in Kashmir..where are your armoured vehicles?How much of the % of vehicles are armoured..even after Pulwama!!

Now they will buy after being given a taste of battlefield.

In joint exercises they come to know of weapon systems which is laughable and then the right things like Apache and P8i will be ordered less..

But yeah..tanks to order karna he boss!

I dont know if we dumb or corrupt

 

[WARREN SS]

Allow me to disagree.

The conclusions of the Pentagon and Rumfield were exactly the opposite which lead to the great SOCOM surge in the early days of the WOT.

Borneo/Falklands - SAS had tremendous impact in the outcome

Panama - Delta / DevGru tremendous impact

First gulf war - minimally utilizes took out the scuds in the desert - successful prevented the Israelis from joining the conflict

GWOT - dismantled the Iraqi / Taliban / AQ C&C preventing any serious fight back from the opfor and forced them into an insurgency. The normal' military then did it's job as an Occupying force. SOF prepped the battled field for them every single time.

Hell there is great story of how a delta company with 2 Abrams and 2 Apaches in support tricked an entire Republican Guard regiment to surrender

The Israeli SOF units allow Israel to go to war every day without actually mobilizing the whole country for it.

Whether they are super infantry or something else all depends on how they are utilised to achieve the strategic objectives from a national security policy perspective.

I can quote you almost better operations carried out by Simple Infantary units in.Same wars

They are decorated For theatre Operations.

SOF only did specialized operational
Which had limited impact of few theater in war not war as whole every Unit has its own special area of operations.
Even Signal Regiment

SAS ops are very limited in whole aspect of war
They only used for intel collection
And initial assaults and weapons Support

While first major assault was conducted by
Parachute regiment
And 3rd commando brigade with SBS teams

The covering fire was provided by Navy
Code name operation Sutton

Operation Sutton - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Infact Air power and Naval power was
Conducted 60-70% of the all operational aspect in Falklands

Units like Gurkha not given opportunity who were desperate for actions


US invasion of Panama

These are many units that were part Panama theater
You can see SOF units are only 10 % of what actual warfightimg forces in Panama.and even less real operations

The U.S. Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines, and Coast Guard participated in Operation Just Cause. Ground forces consisted of :

• combat elements of the XVIII Airborne Corps,
• the 82nd Airborne Division,
• the 7th Infantry Division (Light),
• the 7th Special Forces Group (Airborne),
• the 75th Ranger Regiment,
• Tactical Air Control Parties from the 507th and 602nd Tactical Air Control Wings and the 24th Composite Wing[33]
• Combat Controllers from the 1721st Combat Control Squadron
• a Joint Special Operations Task Force,
• elements of the 5th Infantry Division
  • 1st Battalion, 61st Infantry Regiment
  • 4th Battalion, 6th Infantry Regiment (replacing 1/61st in September 1989),
• 16th Military Police Brigade (Airborne), Ft Bragg NC
• 503rd Military Police Battalion (Airborne), Ft Bragg NC
• 21st Military Police Company (Airborne), Ft Bragg NC
• 65th Military Police Company, Ft Bragg NC
• 108th Military Police Company (Air Assault), Ft Bragg NC
• 519th Military Police Battalion
• 1138th Military Police Company, Missouri Army National Guard
• 988th Military Police Company, Ft Benning, GA
• 555th Military Police Company, Ft Lee, VA
• 193rd Infantry Brigade
  • 5th Battalion, 87th Infantry Regiment
  • 1st Battalion, 508th Infantry Regiment
• 8th Ordnance Company (Ammo), Ft Bragg, NC (Select detachment attached to SOUTHCOM)
• Marine Security Forces Battalion Panama,
• Company K, 3rd Battalion, 6th Marines Regiment,
• Marine Fleet Antiterrorism Security Teams,
• 2nd Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion,
• 2nd Marine Logistics Group 39th Combat Engineer Battalion Co C.
• 511th Military Police Company, Ft Drum NY
• 1097th Transportation Company (Medium Boat), Fort Davis, Panama

Like in every war Infantary role undermined to
For SOF propaganda.

Many part of Front line assaults are substituted by
Machines today like drones

All The roles by SOF are specialized and practically
Initial and theater based intel collections roles

I can quote you 10 times more operations carried out by US Infantry battalions and Marine corps in
Gulf war

The serious warfighting is Done by Infantry units
With support of Airborne and Airforce elements

SOF practically has limited role for which they trained for.

You can't expect SOF to fight whole enemy
Armoured or mechanized armoured thrust
Or there MBRL barrage or Artillery

Like every Unit of military there role is Specialised
And Theatre driven
What they get is better PR and Propaganda
And over exaggeration by media.

That is used for physiological warfare

 

[rkhanna]

30 years in Kashmir..where are your armoured vehicles?How much of the % of vehicles are armoured..even after Pulwama!!

Lol only when the Chinese came a knocking we realised our BMPs can't fight at night.