Indian Special Forces (archived)

[ezsasa]

Garuds are buying 60 Round Drum Magazines for Tavors..

 

[vampyrbladez]

Garuds are buying 60 Round Drum Magazines for Tavors..

View attachment 40069

They turned the TAVOR into a SAW weapon? Could be part of the SOD requirements.

 

[Johny_Baba]

Garuds are buying 60 Round Drum Magazines for Tavors..

View attachment 40069

In my opinion they should opt for High Capacity Magazines instead of drums

Sure,Magpul D-60 is specifically designed to work reliably for firearms feeding from STANAG pattern magazines,it still has its own perks that i consider is not good for a special operations unit like Garud,as
>Drums are time consuming to load / unload
Although there are some drumps that have removable cover on its side to open it up and stack up rounds in / remove rounds from it while it's spring is fully coiled back,the most proliferate one in market and one that's there on this pic,MAGPUL D-60 doesn't have such thing and each round has to be feed inside it like a regular magazine THEN on each insertion it has to be manually cracked using a lever on its body...Just imagine,inserting a round then cranking lever each time

Oh,and not only loading but even unloading such a drum is time consuming as you will have to gradually push out one round at a time

point here,if you're going for drum mag,choose one that's easy to load (Although newer versions of MAGPUL D-60s are said to be compatible with stripper clips and magazine loaders,then again you'll have to invest in those loaders separately for this drum)

>Drum Magazines,by thumb rule,are less reliable
Of course,depends a lot on design of the drums and so,but still major designs have coiled springs with flexible followers in it and it is prone to malfunctions as whole coiled spring and flexible follower combo has to pass through coiled circular paths inside the mag and anything disrupting their motion would fail whole magazine,fixing it all is a whole mess on its own.AND unloading,as i said,has to be done one round at a time and if one hurridly pushes out rounds in quick succession it could potentially lock its spring inside.

>Due to their shape,Drum Magazines might cause hinderance for quick movements
Although debatable,i still believe a thick a** drum,that too on a bullpup like Tavor is not ideal for a special force like Garud whose operational requirements may demand operatives for quick movements with their firearms,as
- Tavor already is a rear-heavy bullpup rifle and putting a loaded drum would totally destabilise its centre of gravity,by default on its pistol grip and moving around with such an unbalanced weapon would be problematic for an operative
- It's preety obvious that one cannot put such drums in their chest rig due to its thickness/shape so swapping off drums from rear carry bag is time consuming in a heated firing (Assuming operative is carrying more than one such drum mag)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Instead of that,We should opt or those High Capacity Stacked Magazines like this SUREFIRE-60(though there are a lot of similar high capacity mags in market just like drums),as
>they are more reliable than drums (on thumb rule,of course,then it all depends on design),even disassembly and maintenance is a piece of cake compared to drums

Surefire 60 round magazine (MAG5-60)

Here Turkish Naval Commando is shown using Surefire-60 on his M4 pattern carbine

>could be easily loaded (using stripper clips or even by hands) or unloaded like just any other mag

look at this video how quickly it could be unloaded by just putting pressure at right point in right way (Here a Loader/Unloader tool STRIPLULA is used but one can even do it by using his finger)


>They are more convenient than a drum as moving around with it is like moving around with a "jungle styled" mag (two magazines tapped together),also these mags are somewhat lighter than drums,both loaded and unloaded,so it won't destabilise a bullpup much i think.Also one can stack such mags inside their chest rig,it's just like carrying a thicker magazine than normal one in pouch of a chest rig,and in heated battles one can quickly swap mags in their weapons from it.

Some pics of Tavor with Surefire-60 to make impression how convenient it is compared to a drum

some videos on Surefire-60 in range

 

[ALBY]

In my opinion they should opt for High Capacity Magazines instead of drums

Sure,Magpul D-60 is specifically designed to work reliably for firearms feeding from STANAG pattern magazines,it still has its own perks that i consider is not good for a special operations unit like Garud,as
>Drums are time consuming to load / unload
Although there are some drumps that have removable cover on its side to open it up and stack up rounds in / remove rounds from it while it's spring is fully coiled back,the most proliferate one in market and one that's there on this pic,MAGPUL D-60 doesn't have such thing and each round has to be feed inside it like a regular magazine THEN on each insertion it has to be manually cracked using a lever on its body...Just imagine,inserting a round then cranking lever each time

Oh,and not only loading but even unloading such a drum is time consuming as you will have to gradually push out one round at a time

point here,if you're going for drum mag,choose one that's easy to load (Although newer versions of MAGPUL D-60s are said to be compatible with stripper clips and magazine loaders,then again you'll have to invest in those loaders separately for this drum)

>Drum Magazines,by thumb rule,are less reliable
Of course,depends a lot on design of the drums and so,but still major designs have coiled springs with flexible followers in it and it is prone to malfunctions as whole coiled spring and flexible follower combo has to pass through coiled circular paths inside the mag and anything disrupting their motion would fail whole magazine,fixing it all is a whole mess on its own.AND unloading,as i said,has to be done one round at a time and if one hurridly pushes out rounds in quick succession it could potentially lock its spring inside.

>Due to their shape,Drum Magazines might cause hinderance for quick movements
Although debatable,i still believe a thick a** drum,that too on a bullpup like Tavor is not ideal for a special force like Garud whose operational requirements may demand operatives for quick movements with their firearms,as
- Tavor already is a rear-heavy bullpup rifle and putting a loaded drum would totally destabilise its centre of gravity,by default on its pistol grip and moving around with such an unbalanced weapon would be problematic for an operative
- It's preety obvious that one cannot put such drums in their chest rig due to its thickness/shape so swapping off drums from rear carry bag is time consuming in a heated firing (Assuming operative is carrying more than one such drum mag)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Instead of that,We should opt or those High Capacity Stacked Magazines like this SUREFIRE-60(though there are a lot of similar high capacity mags in market just like drums),as
>they are more reliable than drums (on thumb rule,of course,then it all depends on design),even disassembly and maintenance is a piece of cake compared to drums

Surefire 60 round magazine (MAG5-60)

Here Turkish Naval Commando is shown using Surefire-60 on his M4 pattern carbine

>could be easily loaded (using stripper clips or even by hands) or unloaded like just any other mag

look at this video how quickly it could be unloaded by just putting pressure at right point in right way (Here a Loader/Unloader tool STRIPLULA is used but one can even do it by using his finger)


>They are more convenient than a drum as moving around with it is like moving around with a "jungle styled" mag (two magazines tapped together),also these mags are somewhat lighter than drums,both loaded and unloaded,so it won't destabilise a bullpup much i think.Also one can stack such mags inside their chest rig,it's just like carrying a thicker magazine than normal one in pouch of a chest rig,and in heated battles one can quickly swap mags in their weapons from it.

Some pics of Tavor with Surefire-60 to make impression how convenient it is compared to a drum

some videos on Surefire-60 in range

Plus doesnt a drum mag obstruct the movement of the right hand of the shooter as its round shape is going to get in between shoulder and hand.
Plus loading time, issues with carrying drums, added weight of the weapon all are issues if looked from a SF perspective as u noted.
Anyway no wonder about the RFI as indian mil brass whether its SF or rest, they are decades behind in terms of thinking and lacks updation as we discuss in this forum many times.

 

[rkhanna]

Plus doesnt a drum mag obstruct the movement of the right hand of the shooter as its round shape is going to get in between shoulder and hand.
Plus loading time, issues with carrying drums, added weight of the weapon all are issues if looked from a SF perspective as u noted.
Anyway no wonder about the RFI as indian mil brass whether its SF or rest, they are decades behind in terms of thinking and lacks updation as we discuss in this forum many times.

Drum Magazine on a Bullpup?!!!!! I wonder who thinks these things through. Did Garud ask for this?

 

[uoftotaku]

Drum Magazine on a Bullpup?!!!!! I wonder who thinks these things through. Did Garud ask for this?

Garuds are all after Instagram worthy Gucci gear..practicality and actual effectiveness be damned. They have big budget which they are determined to waste on baubles. Best equipped force in the nation and no discernible mission profile in combat

 

[rkhanna]

Inc ase someone is interested. A window into a SOF unit calling for CAS in an Ambush. Combined Arms with 21st Century Tech ( note - Iraqi insurgents were using IR blankets!!!)

"We were then instructed to go East, as US Marine Special Forces from a recon got ambushed and were getting shot at by a few snipers. So about 80 miles of transit and we had to redo everything. And my wingman and I had already dropped some bombs on enemy guys. And we had to redo everything: negotiate a new tanker; advise the carrier we’ll be late; come up with a game-plan. Pretty rushed and then on arrive on scene. It was quite difficult to spot the first group of snipers. They had ‘IR shields’ and stuff like that so we found them with the help of the SF on the ground using small UAVs and compare my footage with this SF UAV footage. I got rid of those two guys"

https://hushkit.net/2019/11/11/flyi...afale-interview-with-a-rafale-combat-veteran/

(Lol the rest of the article can be posted on the Rafale thread)

ISR, Data Fusion and Comms are the premier weapons of the SOF today

 

[ezsasa]

Drum Magazine on a Bullpup?!!!!! I wonder who thinks these things through. Did Garud ask for this?

Let them experiment, nothing wrong.

On a lighter note, there was a time not so long ago Garuds were presenting cheap Chinese roadside LED light as special equipment. I am sure that video is still available on YouTube.

 

[ALBY]

Garuds are all after Instagram worthy Gucci gear..practicality and actual effectiveness be damned. They have big budget which they are determined to waste on baubles. Best equipped force in the nation and no discernible mission profile in combat

Gucci gear? Lol.. you havent seen the gear of Nato SFs. Just like abigdonboy always says our gear is just comparable with Nijerian or Sudanese SF, not even with South African SF.
Those equipments are minimal ones, if we dont have them then there is no need to call them SF. Air force/MoD decision makers are to be blamed for lack of experience of Garuds

 

[Noname34]

Not once have i ever seen a drum magazine on any NATO special operations unit, having heard about the impracticality of drum magazines in the field online, i have little dificulty understanding why that is the case.

This seems another case of generals going online, pointing at something and saying-"hey that looks nice" and buying it with little afterthought.

The choice of Tavor for SF outfits in itself is a pretty difficult thing to wrap one's head around considering SF of countries who have a bullpup as standard weapon instead go for an AR 15 based platform.(Eg - Australia, UK, New zealand, France)

Now a drum magazine will just add more weight to the rear of the gun which is already heavier in bullpups as opposed to a normal rifle.

This is the result of non existent awareness amongst the higher officer corps regarding procurement. Can't blame them really, procurement is a really complex subject which requires meticulous study and understanding.

I've stressed on this before but educational institutions dedicated to teaching procurement is an absolute need of the hour, something which MOD is still sitting on without any progress.

Expect more stupidity like this unless this is sorted.

One cannot but pity the average soldier, stuck with an officer corps which doesn't know the basics of procurement on one hand and crappy DPSUs which shoves down crappy equipment down their throats with the support of the MOD on the other.

Now they will get these mags and in a few months the images of soldiers carrying them will be seen online eliciting ridicule from those who see them, calling into question the professionalism of the unit.

Unfortunate really.

 

[Johny_Baba]

In my opinion they should opt for High Capacity Magazines instead of drums

Sure,Magpul D-60 is specifically designed to work reliably for firearms feeding from STANAG pattern magazines,it still has its own perks that i consider is not good for a special operations unit like Garud,as
>Drums are time consuming to load / unload
Although there are some drumps that have removable cover on its side to open it up and stack up rounds in / remove rounds from it while it's spring is fully coiled back,the most proliferate one in market and one that's there on this pic,MAGPUL D-60 doesn't have such thing and each round has to be feed inside it like a regular magazine THEN on each insertion it has to be manually cracked using a lever on its body...Just imagine,inserting a round then cranking lever each time

Oh,and not only loading but even unloading such a drum is time consuming as you will have to gradually push out one round at a time

point here,if you're going for drum mag,choose one that's easy to load (Although newer versions of MAGPUL D-60s are said to be compatible with stripper clips and magazine loaders,then again you'll have to invest in those loaders separately for this drum)

>Drum Magazines,by thumb rule,are less reliable
Of course,depends a lot on design of the drums and so,but still major designs have coiled springs with flexible followers in it and it is prone to malfunctions as whole coiled spring and flexible follower combo has to pass through coiled circular paths inside the mag and anything disrupting their motion would fail whole magazine,fixing it all is a whole mess on its own.AND unloading,as i said,has to be done one round at a time and if one hurridly pushes out rounds in quick succession it could potentially lock its spring inside.

>Due to their shape,Drum Magazines might cause hinderance for quick movements
Although debatable,i still believe a thick a** drum,that too on a bullpup like Tavor is not ideal for a special force like Garud whose operational requirements may demand operatives for quick movements with their firearms,as
- Tavor already is a rear-heavy bullpup rifle and putting a loaded drum would totally destabilise its centre of gravity,by default on its pistol grip and moving around with such an unbalanced weapon would be problematic for an operative
- It's preety obvious that one cannot put such drums in their chest rig due to its thickness/shape so swapping off drums from rear carry bag is time consuming in a heated firing (Assuming operative is carrying more than one such drum mag)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Instead of that,We should opt or those High Capacity Stacked Magazines like this SUREFIRE-60(though there are a lot of similar high capacity mags in market just like drums),as
>they are more reliable than drums (on thumb rule,of course,then it all depends on design),even disassembly and maintenance is a piece of cake compared to drums

Surefire 60 round magazine (MAG5-60)

Here Turkish Naval Commando is shown using Surefire-60 on his M4 pattern carbine

>could be easily loaded (using stripper clips or even by hands) or unloaded like just any other mag

look at this video how quickly it could be unloaded by just putting pressure at right point in right way (Here a Loader/Unloader tool STRIPLULA is used but one can even do it by using his finger)


>They are more convenient than a drum as moving around with it is like moving around with a "jungle styled" mag (two magazines tapped together),also these mags are somewhat lighter than drums,both loaded and unloaded,so it won't destabilise a bullpup much i think.Also one can stack such mags inside their chest rig,it's just like carrying a thicker magazine than normal one in pouch of a chest rig,and in heated battles one can quickly swap mags in their weapons from it.

Some pics of Tavor with Surefire-60 to make impression how convenient it is compared to a drum

some videos on Surefire-60 in range

Continuation,just for a fair comparison,

Drum magazines are pretty common in Kalashnikov platform than AR or other NATO pattern firearm.

In Kalashnikovs,Soviets themselves developed drums for RPK Light Machine Gun and their kommie allies made their own variants of drums (e.g. Chinese made their own drums and so).Though same guys also developed high capacity magazines (as an alternative to drum) for AK that were....just...elongated standard magazines (sometimes weirder ones,too,like that 100 round one )

Anyway,
It seems like even Russians are adopting high capacity quad-stack magazines in little numbers in their special operations units.Some examples,

Russian Alpha Team operative showing upgraded AK-74M,50 rounder high capacity mag from Izhmash

Russian Police SOBR Member with a 60-rounder quad-stack magazine made by PufGun (a russian manufacturer of magazines)

and even with this all,latest iteration of their RPK in 5.45x39mm,RPK-16 is equipped with a 96-rounder drum (also compatible with previous generation drums for RPK-74 which was 100 rounder and so)

So it's a really interesting case,as they(Russians) are adopting both drums for a LMG and High Capacity Quad-Stack Magazine for Special Operations Units.

 

[rkhanna]

Drum magazines ( essential box mags) on MMGs / LMGs is fine.

Drum magazines on a Bullpup (assuming LMG) is a question mark as your forarm will be banging against it.

Drum magazines on a a Bullpup assault rifle is weird for a number of reasons. If the soldier is going to go through such a high rate of fire his Barrell will fail . LMGs have heavier barrells.

For an assaulter who needs to be accurate the box mags throws off the weight of the rifle not to mention manoverability

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Drum Magazine on a Bullpup?!!!!! I wonder who thinks these things through. Did Garud ask for this?

Hahaha i was thinking the same.

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

A Chetak Commando of Gujarat Police carrying FN SCAR L CQC of #NSG

SIG MPX in the background

NSG, Chetak & JKP displayed their equipment on National Unity Day at Statue of Unity

 

[abingdonboy]

Drum Magazine on a Bullpup?!!!!! I wonder who thinks these things through. Did Garud ask for this?

I’m sure they did and there speaks to their incompetence and unprofessionalism.

I have no problem with these “high speed” units testing out new stuff on a constant basis- that’s what they should be doing. But look at the quantities- almost 3K units. Clearly they’ve decided this is a good option for them....lured by some flashy presentation or sweet talked at a stand at some expo maybe?

This requirement very well may have emerged after their cutting of teeth in JK where operators reported back that they were blowing through their 30 round mags quicker than they expected. But the solution to this would be better plate carriers with more mag pouches and more importantly to improve their transition skills. look at any western military’s even infantrymen- they can drop out a mag and replace it within a couple of seconds at most. NEVER seen such smooth drills from an Indian unit. Worse I don’t see even SF operators in India walking around with anything other than 3 mags (1 in rifle, 2 spare) on many occasions I’ve seen SF guys running around IN THEATRE with just a bullet proof jacket with nowhere to store mags so all they have in them is the 30 rounds in their rifle, I wondered every time wtf these guys are gonna do when they fire through them, they don’t even carry a secondary weapon in most cases!

So they’ve seen a problem and come up with the wrong answer once again. People are fuming about generals and commanders here but this seems to be an operator issue- US/NATO SOFs were transformed by the WOT within literally half a decade, Indian SFs have been fighting in Kashmir and the NE for 7 decades and what have they learnt? What have they adopted? They are still getting killed and injured at an eye watering level and their missions seems to be plagued with failures (tactical missions not the strategic ones). I mean these are the guys that are STILL calling off missions as the sun starts to set or charging into multi-story buildings with little tactics- no flash bangs, no diversions, not multiple points of attack, no sniper cover etc etc.

Again and again indian SOFs are going against the grain, finding odd and unique ways to find common problems. There’s a reason why all top tier SOFs around the world almost look identical today, there’s absolutely no reason why Indian SOFs continue to find more imaginative and contrarian ways to keep re-inventing the wheel whilst failing to even develop the basics.

The SAS were pretty sh!tly equipped during the IRA days but their tactics were deadly and they were ruthlessly effective. No one can say the same for Indian SOFs.

 

[abingdonboy]

A Chetak Commando of Gujarat Police carrying FN SCAR L CQC of #NSG

SIG MPX in the background

NSG, Chetak & JKP displayed their equipment on National Unity Day at Statue of Unity

But why the Tan? Makes no sense. Would stick out badly with all the black gear of NSG, have seen them with black SCARs in the past.

 

[ALBY]

Not once have i ever seen a drum magazine on any NATO special operations unit, having heard about the impracticality of drum magazines in the field online, i have little dificulty understanding why that is the case.

This seems another case of generals going online, pointing at something and saying-"hey that looks nice" and buying it with little afterthought.

The choice of Tavor for SF outfits in itself is a pretty difficult thing to wrap one's head around considering SF of countries who have a bullpup as standard weapon instead go for an AR 15 based platform.(Eg - Australia, UK, New zealand, France)

Now a drum magazine will just add more weight to the rear of the gun which is already heavier in bullpups as opposed to a normal rifle.

This is the result of non existent awareness amongst the higher officer corps regarding procurement. Can't blame them really, procurement is a really complex subject which requires meticulous study and understanding.

I've stressed on this before but educational institutions dedicated to teaching procurement is an absolute need of the hour, something which MOD is still sitting on without any progress.

Expect more stupidity like this unless this is sorted.

One cannot but pity the average soldier, stuck with an officer corps which doesn't know the basics of procurement on one hand and crappy DPSUs which shoves down crappy equipment down their throats with the support of the MOD on the other.

Now they will get these mags and in a few months the images of soldiers carrying them will be seen online eliciting ridicule from those who see them, calling into question the professionalism of the unit.

Unfortunate really.

Choice of Tavor was a result of secret dealings between MoD and IWI. It had more to do with strategic relations than needs of SF. Not downplaying Tavor is a good weapon, but the Indo Israeli ties and need of Israel to find markets for their emerging brand of weapons all contributed to it. Why would you think CrpF would buy 12000 X-95 for common troopers where as Vanilla Aks could have done that job.
There was plans to locally make Zittaras but didnt materialised. Plus the options jn front of us back then was limited. Only Sigs, AR-15/M4, G-36 and Augs were there.
Scar and Hk416s were only in development phase. Plus Indians had been associating with Israel from the very start about Tavor-21s development.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Garuds are buying 60 Round Drum Magazines for Tavors..

View attachment 40069

Is it just me or drum magazine with Bullpup seems kinda odd since you have to reach for the trigger croosing over the magazine.

Vs

Second one seems way more comfortable.

 

[ezsasa]

Is it just me or drum magazine with Bullpup seems kinda odd since you have to reach for the trigger croosing over the magazine.

Vs

Second one seems way more comfortable.

@Johny_Baba has given more info on other products available a few posts up.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Would have been nice if they had asked for supressor,optics and better integrated communication set.
Their primary objective is to protect stationary target that won't require u to rain bullet on the enemies, just better coordination, situational awareness would do the job.