They turned the TAVOR into a SAW weapon? Could be part of the SOD requirements.
In my opinion they should opt for High Capacity Magazines instead of drums
Plus doesnt a drum mag obstruct the movement of the right hand of the shooter as its round shape is going to get in between shoulder and hand.In my opinion they should opt for High Capacity Magazines instead of drums
Sure,Magpul D-60 is specifically designed to work reliably for firearms feeding from STANAG pattern magazines,it still has its own perks that i consider is not good for a special operations unit like Garud,as
>Drums are time consuming to load / unload
Although there are some drumps that have removable cover on its side to open it up and stack up rounds in / remove rounds from it while it's spring is fully coiled back,the most proliferate one in market and one that's there on this pic,MAGPUL D-60 doesn't have such thing and each round has to be feed inside it like a regular magazine THEN on each insertion it has to be manually cracked using a lever on its body...Just imagine,inserting a round then cranking lever each time
Oh,and not only loading but even unloading such a drum is time consuming as you will have to gradually push out one round at a time
point here,if you're going for drum mag,choose one that's easy to load (Although newer versions of MAGPUL D-60s are said to be compatible with stripper clips and magazine loaders,then again you'll have to invest in those loaders separately for this drum)
>Drum Magazines,by thumb rule,are less reliable
Of course,depends a lot on design of the drums and so,but still major designs have coiled springs with flexible followers in it and it is prone to malfunctions as whole coiled spring and flexible follower combo has to pass through coiled circular paths inside the mag and anything disrupting their motion would fail whole magazine,fixing it all is a whole mess on its own.AND unloading,as i said,has to be done one round at a time and if one hurridly pushes out rounds in quick succession it could potentially lock its spring inside.
>Due to their shape,Drum Magazines might cause hinderance for quick movements
Although debatable,i still believe a thick a** drum,that too on a bullpup like Tavor is not ideal for a special force like Garud whose operational requirements may demand operatives for quick movements with their firearms,as
- Tavor already is a rear-heavy bullpup rifle and putting a loaded drum would totally destabilise its centre of gravity,by default on its pistol grip and moving around with such an unbalanced weapon would be problematic for an operative
- It's preety obvious that one cannot put such drums in their chest rig due to its thickness/shape so swapping off drums from rear carry bag is time consuming in a heated firing (Assuming operative is carrying more than one such drum mag)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Instead of that,We should opt or those High Capacity Stacked Magazines like this SUREFIRE-60(though there are a lot of similar high capacity mags in market just like drums),as
>they are more reliable than drums (on thumb rule,of course,then it all depends on design),even disassembly and maintenance is a piece of cake compared to drums
Surefire 60 round magazine (MAG5-60)
Here Turkish Naval Commando is shown using Surefire-60 on his M4 pattern carbine
>could be easily loaded (using stripper clips or even by hands) or unloaded like just any other mag
look at this video how quickly it could be unloaded by just putting pressure at right point in right way (Here a Loader/Unloader tool STRIPLULA is used but one can even do it by using his finger)
>They are more convenient than a drum as moving around with it is like moving around with a "jungle styled" mag (two magazines tapped together),also these mags are somewhat lighter than drums,both loaded and unloaded,so it won't destabilise a bullpup much i think.Also one can stack such mags inside their chest rig,it's just like carrying a thicker magazine than normal one in pouch of a chest rig,and in heated battles one can quickly swap mags in their weapons from it.
Some pics of Tavor with Surefire-60 to make impression how convenient it is compared to a drum
some videos on Surefire-60 in range
Drum Magazine on a Bullpup?!!!!! I wonder who thinks these things through. Did Garud ask for this?Plus doesnt a drum mag obstruct the movement of the right hand of the shooter as its round shape is going to get in between shoulder and hand.
Plus loading time, issues with carrying drums, added weight of the weapon all are issues if looked from a SF perspective as u noted.
Anyway no wonder about the RFI as indian mil brass whether its SF or rest, they are decades behind in terms of thinking and lacks updation as we discuss in this forum many times.
Garuds are all after Instagram worthy Gucci gear..practicality and actual effectiveness be damned. They have big budget which they are determined to waste on baubles. Best equipped force in the nation and no discernible mission profile in combatDrum Magazine on a Bullpup?!!!!! I wonder who thinks these things through. Did Garud ask for this?
Let them experiment, nothing wrong.Drum Magazine on a Bullpup?!!!!! I wonder who thinks these things through. Did Garud ask for this?
Gucci gear? Lol.. you havent seen the gear of Nato SFs. Just like abigdonboy always says our gear is just comparable with Nijerian or Sudanese SF, not even with South African SF.Garuds are all after Instagram worthy Gucci gear..practicality and actual effectiveness be damned. They have big budget which they are determined to waste on baubles. Best equipped force in the nation and no discernible mission profile in combat
Continuation,just for a fair comparison,In my opinion they should opt for High Capacity Magazines instead of drums
Sure,Magpul D-60 is specifically designed to work reliably for firearms feeding from STANAG pattern magazines,it still has its own perks that i consider is not good for a special operations unit like Garud,as
>Drums are time consuming to load / unload
Although there are some drumps that have removable cover on its side to open it up and stack up rounds in / remove rounds from it while it's spring is fully coiled back,the most proliferate one in market and one that's there on this pic,MAGPUL D-60 doesn't have such thing and each round has to be feed inside it like a regular magazine THEN on each insertion it has to be manually cracked using a lever on its body...Just imagine,inserting a round then cranking lever each time
Oh,and not only loading but even unloading such a drum is time consuming as you will have to gradually push out one round at a time
point here,if you're going for drum mag,choose one that's easy to load (Although newer versions of MAGPUL D-60s are said to be compatible with stripper clips and magazine loaders,then again you'll have to invest in those loaders separately for this drum)
>Drum Magazines,by thumb rule,are less reliable
Of course,depends a lot on design of the drums and so,but still major designs have coiled springs with flexible followers in it and it is prone to malfunctions as whole coiled spring and flexible follower combo has to pass through coiled circular paths inside the mag and anything disrupting their motion would fail whole magazine,fixing it all is a whole mess on its own.AND unloading,as i said,has to be done one round at a time and if one hurridly pushes out rounds in quick succession it could potentially lock its spring inside.
>Due to their shape,Drum Magazines might cause hinderance for quick movements
Although debatable,i still believe a thick a** drum,that too on a bullpup like Tavor is not ideal for a special force like Garud whose operational requirements may demand operatives for quick movements with their firearms,as
- Tavor already is a rear-heavy bullpup rifle and putting a loaded drum would totally destabilise its centre of gravity,by default on its pistol grip and moving around with such an unbalanced weapon would be problematic for an operative
- It's preety obvious that one cannot put such drums in their chest rig due to its thickness/shape so swapping off drums from rear carry bag is time consuming in a heated firing (Assuming operative is carrying more than one such drum mag)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Instead of that,We should opt or those High Capacity Stacked Magazines like this SUREFIRE-60(though there are a lot of similar high capacity mags in market just like drums),as
>they are more reliable than drums (on thumb rule,of course,then it all depends on design),even disassembly and maintenance is a piece of cake compared to drums
Surefire 60 round magazine (MAG5-60)
Here Turkish Naval Commando is shown using Surefire-60 on his M4 pattern carbine
>could be easily loaded (using stripper clips or even by hands) or unloaded like just any other mag
look at this video how quickly it could be unloaded by just putting pressure at right point in right way (Here a Loader/Unloader tool STRIPLULA is used but one can even do it by using his finger)
>They are more convenient than a drum as moving around with it is like moving around with a "jungle styled" mag (two magazines tapped together),also these mags are somewhat lighter than drums,both loaded and unloaded,so it won't destabilise a bullpup much i think.Also one can stack such mags inside their chest rig,it's just like carrying a thicker magazine than normal one in pouch of a chest rig,and in heated battles one can quickly swap mags in their weapons from it.
Some pics of Tavor with Surefire-60 to make impression how convenient it is compared to a drum
some videos on Surefire-60 in range
Hahaha i was thinking the same.Drum Magazine on a Bullpup?!!!!! I wonder who thinks these things through. Did Garud ask for this?
I’m sure they did and there speaks to their incompetence and unprofessionalism.Drum Magazine on a Bullpup?!!!!! I wonder who thinks these things through. Did Garud ask for this?
But why the Tan? Makes no sense. Would stick out badly with all the black gear of NSG, have seen them with black SCARs in the past.
A Chetak Commando of Gujarat Police carrying FN SCAR L CQC of #NSG
SIG MPX in the background
NSG, Chetak & JKP displayed their equipment on National Unity Day at Statue of Unity
Choice of Tavor was a result of secret dealings between MoD and IWI. It had more to do with strategic relations than needs of SF. Not downplaying Tavor is a good weapon, but the Indo Israeli ties and need of Israel to find markets for their emerging brand of weapons all contributed to it. Why would you think CrpF would buy 12000 X-95 for common troopers where as Vanilla Aks could have done that job.Not once have i ever seen a drum magazine on any NATO special operations unit, having heard about the impracticality of drum magazines in the field online, i have little dificulty understanding why that is the case.
This seems another case of generals going online, pointing at something and saying-"hey that looks nice" and buying it with little afterthought.
The choice of Tavor for SF outfits in itself is a pretty difficult thing to wrap one's head around considering SF of countries who have a bullpup as standard weapon instead go for an AR 15 based platform.(Eg - Australia, UK, New zealand, France)
Now a drum magazine will just add more weight to the rear of the gun which is already heavier in bullpups as opposed to a normal rifle.
This is the result of non existent awareness amongst the higher officer corps regarding procurement. Can't blame them really, procurement is a really complex subject which requires meticulous study and understanding.
I've stressed on this before but educational institutions dedicated to teaching procurement is an absolute need of the hour, something which MOD is still sitting on without any progress.
Expect more stupidity like this unless this is sorted.
One cannot but pity the average soldier, stuck with an officer corps which doesn't know the basics of procurement on one hand and crappy DPSUs which shoves down crappy equipment down their throats with the support of the MOD on the other.
Now they will get these mags and in a few months the images of soldiers carrying them will be seen online eliciting ridicule from those who see them, calling into question the professionalism of the unit.
Unfortunate really.
Is it just me or drum magazine with Bullpup seems kinda odd since you have to reach for the trigger croosing over the magazine.
@Johny_Baba has given more info on other products available a few posts up.Is it just me or drum magazine with Bullpup seems kinda odd since you have to reach for the trigger croosing over the magazine.
Vs
Second one seems way more comfortable.
Thread starter | Similar threads | Forum | Replies | Date |
---|---|---|---|---|
W | SSS Defence M72 5.56×45mm carbine which is undergoing trials with the Indian Special Forces | Indian Army | 15 | |
Restructuring of Indian Special Forces | Indian Army | 27 | ||
Indian Special Forces | Strategic Forces | 43915 | ||
Indian Armed Forces Special Operations Division (AF-SOD) | Strategic Forces | 106 |