Indian Special Forces (archived)

[Unknowncommando 2]

One more ...............

 

[Gessler]

View attachment 39257
Garud Commandos during Aero India & IAF Day

Hmm...Mepro X6 marksman scopes for the STAR-21...

Guess they're getting rid of their old Nimrod 6x40 scopes for the STARs and going in for a more modern, compact package...

Having crappy outdated Generation NVGs is a WHOLE another thing.

Oh don't get me started on how the NVGs used by the nation's most elite special forces are actually no better than what are issued to the regular infantry at LoC and other use-cases.

Namely the PNVG from BEL (PVS-7 copy, or perhaps licensed Meprolight Boxer...they're all fruits of the same tech tree), which has two ocular lenses but a single tube, so limited FoV...

And the monocular ITL N/SEAS, again very limited FoV....

Even if we consider that something like GPNVG-18 is out of our league (don't see why we should when countries like Ukraine and South Korea can get them), the least we can do for the SFs is a proper modern binocular NVG with dual tubes:

 

[rkhanna]

Even if we consider that something like GPNVG-18 is out of our league

Sadly TONBO makes them all and has been exporting to NATO for a few years I believe .

 

[Gessler]

Sadly TONBO makes them all and has been exporting to NATO for a few years I believe .

The BNVD-P? I don't think that one is in production yet.

Rest of the stuff, I'm aware of at least one huge deal with Peru (I think) for TI weapon-mounted sights from Tonbo.

 

[rkhanna]

The BNVD-P? I don't think that one is in production yet.

Rest of the stuff, I'm aware of at least one huge deal with Peru (I think) for TI weapon-mounted sights from Tonbo.

Could be true.

The website shows both the BNVD and the P as part of their portfolio. If the Army is serious (and its not in production yet) the Army should partner, test, refine and help with production on a Post Haste basis.

Hell the Duvi B system gives the soldier the ability to have a fused display of LowLight Illuminator over layered with Thermal. (Imagine that in the Forest firefight for Major Sharma)!!!

Where there is a will there is a way.

 

[WolfPack86]

GHATAK PLATOON Grenadiers Regiment During Indo-Thai Joint Military #ExMaitree 2019 B&T Mp9 with Suppressor, Flashlight with Laser/IR. BEL Passive Night Vision Single Tube ' Full Field ' Binocular System MKU Ballistic Helmet

 

[abingdonboy]

]

Reading India's Most Fearless 2 right now. Balls of steal yes, Insane courage and bravery ofcourse! Skills / Tactics? Questionable

couple of observations so far

1. Story of Major Mohit Sharma - 24 Man 1Para team enters heavy Forest Area to hunt for unknown number of terrorist. Forest is so dark, sunglight does not breach canopy even at 12 noon. Net result 8 Para SF dead, 12 Terrorist Dead. 4 Para SF taken out by OPFOR Sniper with headshots.

a) NO NVGS used - Our night fighting skills are severly lacking.
b) SF continued to be used as Elite Infantry- A ghatak platoon could have done the same task
c) NO SNIPER capability within the 24 man team. AGL and RCL weapon of choice for supressive fire.

2. Corp Jyoti Nirala (Garud)

The story opens with the Corporal recieveing a Watsapp Call from his daughter during the Mission Briefing.

Clearly we have ZERO concept of Opsec - Concept of SCIFs are still alien to us. When we all know that our security establishment leaks like hell via informants etc etc

very poor from a SOF unit

3. Captain Pawan (9 SF) - CT/HR mission where he died. He died during a Room entry.
Use of flashbangs could have saved his life. No Flash Bangs in arsenal.


All three operations displayed insane bravery and leadership qualities under extreme stress. But our lack of tech shows in our tactics and training


DISCLAIMER: This is ofcourse based on reading prose by Shiv Aroor. Who simply is a crap story teller. So ofcourse my opinion is based on the level of information and detail he has gone into. Reality could be completely different (luxury of being an Arm Chair Mental masturbator )

Spot on!

the number of times you hear CT ops being called off in India because of nightfall is ridiculous, it happened even during Pathankot! In the past 3 decades Western SFs then their regular military branches adopted the approach of using NOD technology to create a tactical advantage over their adversaries and SF/raid Ops during Iraq/Afghanistan onwards almakt exclusively occurred during the night. It’s the complete reverse in the indian context which reveals just how backwards these guys are to this day.

This is what I mean when I say you can’t expect SFs to overcome equipment deficiencies with their “toughness”. It HAS cost lives and cost them tactical victories.

even here in 2019 they haven’t even moved beyond single-tube NVGs, this is what Western SFs had about 35 years ago (in 1993 during Black Hawk Down incident their SFs had dual tube NVGs).

totally a$$ backwards, it’s going to take a LONG time for them to catch up.

View attachment 39254
One more ...............

A crappy basic wooden AK with the buttstock not even properly deployed?

what a bloody disgrace! I pray this isn’t a Garud, if it is the situation is worse than even I had thought.

 

[abingdonboy]

Let SOD come with the goodies and by year end, our boys will be rocking new kits comparable to NATO/JSOC standards!

Year end? Not a chance. This is at least a 5 year project (assuming they even start on a sound footing). And even if they have gucci gear it will take some time to become proficient with it and to adapt tactics and SOPs to compliment them.

what’s more important about SOD is creating an operator mindset that is mission-orientated. I’m yet to see this from any indian SF.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Year end? Not a chance. This is at least a 5 year project (assuming they even start on a sound footing). And even if they have gucci gear it will take some time to become proficient with it and to adapt tactics and SOPs to compliment them.

what’s more important about SOD is creating an operator mindset that is mission-orientated. I’m yet to see this from any indian SF.

The year end quote is with respect to the projected delivery of the gear. We are getting gucci gear! :biggrin2:

Top Ministry of Defence (MoD) officials want the equipment to be purchased through the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) route from the US, to be broken up into smaller procurements of Rs 300 crores and acquired by the Army under its own financial powers. This process, sources say, could further delay acquisitions by another six months.

The shopping list includes 715 Mk 48 Light Machine Guns (LMGs), 1,050 FN Scar (H) 7.62x51 assault rifles, 1,400 FN Scar (L) or HK-416 assault rifles, 110 .50 Cal Browning heavy machine guns (HMG), 400 helmet-mounted night vision systems, 600 combat free fall parachutes, 100 Barret M107 A1 heavy sniping rifles and 20 million rounds of ammunition for all of these small arms.

https://www.dailyo.in/politics/para...try-of-defence-indian-army/story/1/30043.html

The weapons will be what the special forces of the United States armed forces use; they will be purchased through the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) route and is expected by the year-end. The total cost is likely to be about Rs 850 crore.

The decision cleared by the defence ministry's Services Capital Acquisition Plan Categorization Higher Committee (SCAPHCC), headed by a top-level army officer earlier this week has cleared the purchase of 1,500 carbines, 1,100 rifles, 400 parachutes, 100 sniper rifles, 750 light machine-guns and also, technical equipment that will enhance the capability of the special forces soldier.

https://www.timesnownews.com/india/...rmys-special-forces-to-get-new-weapons/459700

India's special forces will soon be fielding new sniper rifles, anti-tank weapons that are man-portable, midget submarines and micro unmanned aerial vehicles for surveillance.

Multiple contracts worth billions of rupees have already been inked to equip these elite special forces, the Times of India on Thursday reported, citing sources from the Ministry of Defence.

https://www.business-standard.com/a...ipers-underwater-chariots-118071900395_1.html

 

[vampyrbladez]

No offence to any serving or retired armed forces/police forces members here but Garuds have a pretty dicey record regarding anti - insurgency operations.

The first combat deployments start from 2009.

Air chief marshal P.V. Naik told reporters at the Hindon air base in Uttar Pradesh that its Garud special forces would be present in the helicopters flying in Maoist-hit areas for rescue operations and would defend their personnel and equipment.

https://www.livemint.com/Politics/5...els-gun-down-17-policemen-in-Maharashtra.html

This is from 2013.

The pilot, crew and the two Garud Commandos on board the chopper escaped, apparently to call for assistance, leaving behind the injured man, a light machine gun and personal weapons.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/ind...ng-an-injured-personnel-in-maoist-area-535110

This is from 2016.

A Court of Inquiry into the Pathankot attack conducted by Air Vice-Marshal Amit Dev besides noticing serious lapses in the base security as well as the handling of the incident, it had also noted that had the terrorists been pinned down by IAF Garud commandoes, the lives of the five Defence Security Corps personnel could have been saved.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nat...ed-blow-in-their-first-operation-1671290.html

This is from 2017.

Security personnel who operated with the Garud special forces in the Rakh-e-Hajin village said the bullet piercing marks on the helmets could be seen clearly after the bodies of the two soldiers were recovered following the operations.

https://www.indiatoday.in/mail-toda...-kashmir-ak-47-indian-army-1066774-2017-10-18

We need a conscientious push for better equipment and training for our special forces units. Our braves must be back with political and strategic willpower to go with their courage and discipline!

 

[abingdonboy]

The year end quote is with respect to the projected delivery of the gear. We are getting gucci gear! :biggrin2:



https://www.dailyo.in/politics/para...try-of-defence-indian-army/story/1/30043.html



https://www.timesnownews.com/india/...rmys-special-forces-to-get-new-weapons/459700





https://www.business-standard.com/a...ipers-underwater-chariots-118071900395_1.html

I remember hearing about that FMS deal and it was being reported that it was stalled by red tape. No indication that it was ever cleared.

and a few new rifles isn’t going to change anything. Like I said they need to take a clean sheet approach and get everything new from top to bottom- boots, uniforms, combat belts, plate carriers , helmets etc etc etc.

It would have to be such a huge upgrade on what existing SFs in India have today that I’m not even sure the guys putting in the procurement requests have the slightest indication of the kit that is out there and what they should be procuring. They think buying a new rifle is enough

 

[abingdonboy]

No offence to any serving or retired armed forces/police forces members here but Garuds have a pretty dicey record regarding anti - insurgency operations.

The first combat deployments start from 2009.



https://www.livemint.com/Politics/5...els-gun-down-17-policemen-in-Maharashtra.html

This is from 2013.



https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/ind...ng-an-injured-personnel-in-maoist-area-535110

This is from 2016.



http://www.newindianexpress.com/nat...ed-blow-in-their-first-operation-1671290.html

This is from 2017.



https://www.indiatoday.in/mail-toda...-kashmir-ak-47-indian-army-1066774-2017-10-18

We need a conscientious push for better equipment and training for our special forces units. Our braves must be back with political and strategic willpower to go with their courage and discipline!

That’s not entirely fair


Anyway garuds have come a long way since then. Giving them combat exposure was always the weak link and something they have worked to resolve since 2016. Ideally they’d be attached to PARA SF teams and not RR units but it’s a modest start.

 

[vampyrbladez]

I remember hearing about that FMS deal and it was being reported that it was stalled by red tape. No indication that it was ever cleared.

and a few new rifles isn’t going to change anything. Like I said they need to take a clean sheet approach and get everything new from top to bottom- boots, uniforms, combat belts, plate carriers , helmets etc etc etc.

It would have to be such a huge upgrade on what existing SFs in India have today that I’m not even sure the guys putting in the procurement requests have the slightest indication of the kit that is out there and what they should be procuring. They think buying a new rifle is enough

As per the Times Now article, it got cleared. I referenced it in my post.

 

[rkhanna]

As per the Times Now article, it got cleared. I referenced it in my post.

Sirji, What good is the equipment when our basic SOPs need looking into. Do we need another 26/11 to happen for our SOF to go and do deep introspection like NSG did ?

Few pages back there is a video of US SFG training with Indian SF. on the static range there are short clips of both set of operators shooting from behind cover. You can see Indian SF popup over cover and shoot at target. You can see US SFG bend and shoot from deep behind cover (cutting the pie)

You can see the same SOP in multiple videos. This is just one example.

I am saying that we need to go back to the basics. Rebuild from Scratch. We have some of the best quality Human Resources on the planet. Get them the best quality instruction. the Kit can follow AFTER that.

 

[mayfair]

You can see the same SOP in multiple videos. This is just one example.

I am saying that we need to go back to the basics. Rebuild from Scratch.

Why do we have such SoPs in the first place? Why they were never upgraded, evolved or done away with?

Who is responsible for devising and implementing these?

According to you isn't that an indictment of the same "some of the best human resources"?

 

[AnantS]

Sirji, What good is the equipment when our basic SOPs need looking into. Do we need another 26/11 to happen for our SOF to go and do deep introspection like NSG did ?

Few pages back there is a video of US SFG training with Indian SF. on the static range there are short clips of both set of operators shooting from behind cover. You can see Indian SF popup over cover and shoot at target. You can see US SFG bend and shoot from deep behind cover (cutting the pie)

You can see the same SOP in multiple videos. This is just one example.

I am saying that we need to go back to the basics. Rebuild from Scratch. We have some of the best quality Human Resources on the planet. Get them the best quality instruction. the Kit can follow AFTER that.

Which video? can u link it?

Rest I guess SF is no different from IT field in the sense that one has to constantly learn unlearn relearn something else and repeat to maintain itself in competition instead being contended with having expertise in now fast getting obsolete skill set. nevermind my stupid analogy, hope you get the gist

 

[rkhanna]

Which video? can u link it?

Rest I guess SF is no different from IT field in the sense that one has to constantly learn unlearn relearn something else and repeat to maintain itself in competition instead being contended with having expertise in now fast getting obsolete skill set. nevermind my stupid analogy, hope you get the gist

Not just IT. any field in the 21st Century. Outside of evolving basic soldiering the Operators have new-learn, re-learn, COMMS, ELINT, Cyber etc etc

The video is a few pages back on this thread. Unknown posted it via twitter. Will try and find when i have time

 

[rkhanna]

Yo, has this video been posted here already?
If not, check it out. Some nice lil snippets of our guys and even the Paras 4:47 onwards.

This video 4.55-5.05 Mark.

Why do we have such SoPs in the first place? Why they were never upgraded, evolved or done away with?

Who is responsible for devising and implementing these?

According to you isn't that an indictment of the same "some of the best human resources"?

When i mean human resources - I am talking about the raw potential - Physical, Intelligence, Emotional and mental Attributes. our Jungle Skills are second to none, our mountain skills are second to none, our desert skills are second to none.

Upgrades only happen when there is a will to continously learn and evolve by leadership. Evolution can never happen in an Echo Chamber.

Just look at the Poles - They took a bunch of random dudes, gave them to CAG/JSOC for a 2-3 years and GROM today is a premier SOF unit. Another example is that of Philippines.

What makes JSOC so great. They are continuously pushing the boundary of what they can do and the tech they can do it with. Its an entrepreneurial spirit that we need to cultivate within our SOF communities. For the americans this leads to the same guys leaving the forces and in civilian/contractor form building better tactics , better guns and better Kit.

NEVER be afraid to learn. Nobody is the master of anything. Evolution starts with that attitude.


Using IT as an example - Infyosys/TCS/Oracle/Microsoft/Sun of the world are regular Infantry - Silicon Valley is your SOF.

Last thought - Incidents like 26/11 and Kargil show that we (In India) tend to evolve or find a need to evolve onnly after a crises has passed. it is never proactively. Post 26/11 Ballistic Shields were bought, Flash Bangs, etc etc. These should have been common place to begin with. Let alone high end stuff like Seeing through walls blah blah

 

[ALBY]

Sirji, What good is the equipment when our basic SOPs need looking into. Do we need another 26/11 to happen for our SOF to go and do deep introspection like NSG did ?

Few pages back there is a video of US SFG training with Indian SF. on the static range there are short clips of both set of operators shooting from behind cover. You can see Indian SF popup over cover and shoot at target. You can see US SFG bend and shoot from deep behind cover (cutting the pie)

You can see the same SOP in multiple videos. This is just one example.

I am saying that we need to go back to the basics. Rebuild from Scratch. We have some of the best quality Human Resources on the planet. Get them the best quality instruction. the Kit can follow AFTER that.

I was reading the chapter about martyred Garud Nirala in the book by Shiv Aroor, the very same one mentioned by you earlier. No disrespect for the fallen, but if every account of the book is true, then there is some serious issues with training of SF in India. In that book, we could read that the operator had disregarded the repeated calls to take cover from his buddy and CO and charged directly into the enemy without cover. Yes, his direct charge without cover led to 2 kills and entrapment of other three but it cost his life.That one was avoidable.
Sometjme back in a CT op video we could hear one SF operator yelling at his buddy not to be a hero by charging without cover.
Such actions are justifiable if were RR ir Ghatak or anysuch comparatively less trained men, but Special Forces are meant to act with high precision, discipline in the field and not do Rambo acts.

 

[rkhanna]

I was reading the chapter about martyred Garud Nirala in the book by Shiv Aroor, the very same one mentioned by you earlier. No disrespect for the fallen, but if every account of the book is true, then there is some serious issues with training of SF in India. In that book, we could read that the operator had disregarded the repeated calls to take cover from his buddy and CO and charged directly into the enemy without cover. Yes, his direct charge without cover led to 2 kills and entrapment of other three but it cost his life.That one was avoidable.
Sometjme back in a CT op video we could hear one SF operator yelling at his buddy not to be a hero by charging without cover.
Such actions are justifiable if were RR ir Ghatak or anysuch comparatively less trained men, but Special Forces are meant to act with high precision, discipline in the field and not do Rambo acts.

Amen. Like I said in my previous post . There is no room for emotion such as revenge etc etc in the middle of a goddamn op. These are SOF for fucks sake.

I also have a feeling that with letting younger people join ranks there is an erosion of ethos taking place. (My opinion only) but it started with the conversion of infantry units to SF.

In the 90s the joke used to be that even the cooks in SF ran selection ( which they did. Not to get selected but to show solidarity with the shooters )