Indian Special Forces (archived)

[Rahul Singh]

Re: M4 Rifles for Army SF Units

what is the advantage of this guns over others???????

Colt M4 as we know it today is shortened and deeply modernized version of M-16A2. TAR-21 is a new generation Bullpup design, which conceptually retains features of conventional assault riffle but is short enough for use in CQBs where regular IARs don't fit properly due to longer size.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: M4 Rifles for Army SF Units

but kunal sir....there are many tv prog where even isreali army units are seen using M4 rather than T-21... cant be that useless..??!! plus is it possible HK416 was not for sale...??

Yes they use M4 in deserts not in Marine conditions, Slowly they are changing to X-95 there are few M4 left out and will be entierly replaced by Tavor types..

HK416 is used by many countries including US for example SEAL, DELTA and others, Many Regular units in Iraq using HK416 instead of M4..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: M4 Rifles for Army SF Units

Photos:

101st Airborne Division entirely using HK-416

Popular Mechanics (PM) has published some interesting photos of the HK416, which it calls "the world's newest celebrity weapon." While the Pentagon and HK won't admit the gun's role in the now infamous raid on bin Laden's compound, PM says its use has become "accepted history":

It is undoubtedly true that U.S. special forces helped create and use this weapon, making it a logical choice for the Naval Special Warfare Development Group operators who swept bin Laden's compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan.

German weaponmakers designed the HK416 specifically for, and with input from, U.S. Army special forces. Ten years ago, they wanted a better gun than the M4, which has a reputation for jamming. (There are those who defend the rifle, but U.S. special forces wanted something different.) The M16 and M4 both use gas tubes to launch their projectiles, and keep these gases (along with burned carbon particles) inside the gun, fouling the receiver. The HK416 uses a gas piston instead of a gas tube to launch projectiles. This method allows the weapon to vent hot gas and burned carbon from the rifle with each shot"¦

Read more: This Is The "Celebrity Weapon" Likely Used To Kill Osama Bin Laden - Business Insider

 

[john70]

Re: M4 Rifles for Army SF Units

@ Kunal, can you compare both M4 and X 95, not just the parameters and th specs, but why technically and practically it is good according to you.

 

[sayareakd]

Re: M4 Rifles for Army SF Units

MOD is under pressure of lobby from within army and outside to get uncle's weapons. Plus stupid way to promote weapon, rifle that kill Osama, what next bullet that kill Osama are for sale to India ? Helicopter that used in raid to kill Osama, list can go on.

 

[sayareakd]

Re: M4 Rifles for Army SF Units

If they want something good with money and weight as no consideration then they should go for South Korea's new assault rifle K-11.

I am not sure if SK has offered it to anyone.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: M4 Rifles for Army SF Units

@ Kunal, can you compare both M4 and X 95, not just the parameters and th specs, but why technically and practically it is good according to you.

Sure:

Weight: 3.1 kg
Length: (840 mm) (stock extended)
Barrel length: (370 mm)

-----------------------------------

Weight:2.98 Kg
Overall Length :590 mm
Barrel Length: 330 mm

-----------------------------------

But most Importantly reliability of TAR series of Rifles:

MUD TEST:



I recommend people to watch these vids:


You just dont have this in M4..
Only its second to a AK regarding reliability..

 

[ALBY]

but kunal sir....there are many tv prog where even isreali army units are seen using M4 rather than T-21... cant be that useless..??!! plus is it possible HK416 was not for sale...??

Are the tavors,M4s and hk416s the only high class rifles available in the market today?there are vast variety of arms available .if paras wanted no more of bullpups then there are much renowned weapons out there matching or much better than M4s like the SiG552,AK10x series,Fn scar,cz805s,beryl commando etc. And every time army goes for a weapon I hears 4 or 5 brands in the race
For getting selected. But here i read only India is gonna import M4s from USA.previous year it was Mha was awarding contracts to berettas and IMI which produces X95s with out any global tender. Same is the case of importing Akms from Bulgaria where we could get better Ak103s at a reduced price.
It could be argumented that it is better than getting struck in red tape just as in case of other military deals.But here we ahould remember that M4s had a bad reputation of getting jammed in the dust storm and mud.So that's why rangers and seals are switching over to Hk416s which are improved versions of M4s. There were reports of problems from astan and Iraq about these problems.
Coming to the validity of vedios showcasing the arms most of them are just posted just for weapons promotion. There is another vedio in youtube comparing M4 and ak74 by a western journalist and a georgian officer in Georgia.the M4 is fitted with all accessories available in market including an ACOG scope and Ak had none.As usual the Ak74 losed because hitting a taget with a weapon
Without a scope is much hard than the one with scope.If you go through any tavor promoting vedio you will feel that its yhe best one.
PS:if hks are not for sale how could it end up with polish special forces?America is just finding buyers for their surplus M4 stocks in our army with the help of MOD just like it sold many of the surplus M16s and M4s to Iraq Afghanistan,Georgia etc in the past.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: M4 Rifles for Army SF Units

If you go through any tavor promoting vedio you will feel that its yhe best one.

There are difference between bluff and real..

Not just that anyone said you have to believe, But judge yourself..

 

[Immanuel]

Re: M4 Rifles for Army SF Units

Bin Laden was most likely killed by the Colt C901 or even a SCAR. HK indeed is used by Delta units but I heard they brought in the new Colt since it was found to be extremly impressive. But one will never know since different weapons were at play and Seal teams have the choice of picking the weapons for each mission.

M-4 is a good rifle and M-4 is a very loosely used term and everything from Sig 556, Bushmaster's AR-15s, HK's etc fall in this category. All these are manufactured in the US by the different manufacturers and I wouldn't be surpriced what we finally get is not the Colt version. Bushmaster ARs come in various caliber options of 5.56, 6.8 spc and 7.26. The latest M-4s ordered for the US army are Remington R-4s these are better variants to the colt versions.

 

[Immanuel]

Re: M4 Rifles for Army SF Units

M4 Torture Test Promo - YouTube!

Looking at this video, this Daniel Defence M-4 might just be better than anything out there in terms of reliability and ruggedness. These are the latest variants. It might just be the most reliable ever made. This is freaking impressive.

 

[Bhadra]

Re: M4 Rifles for Army SF Units

The video shows just dip and take out. The oiling of the machine will prevent mudding and watering. The beauty lies when the rifle is underground or in the water for a month taken out and starts firing.

AK can do that... and only AK can do that. That is how terrorist dump their weapons when not needed for months, just take out when required and it still fires...

the video is a humbug advertisement...

 

[Spindrift]

Re: M4 Rifles for Army SF Units

Would they be getting it in 5.56 or 6.8?
Personally, i feel as it is for SF then it would be prudent to get it in 6.8.

 

[Ray]

Re: M4 Rifles for Army SF Units

Is M 14 rifle really a good rifle?

 

[ALBY]

There are difference between bluff and real..

Not just that anyone said you have to believe, But judge yourself..

I just told what I saw in the vedio showing ak74 and M4. I just quoted tavor as an example only. But my point was that even if the M4 which is gonna get selected is not the infamous colt but rather developed HK416 or diemacao c7,there were much better options available just like Sigs,G36, ak10X series etc.
Btw I didn't find the logic behind switching over from 7.62 round to 5.56 round in Para SF.I knew that 5.56 weapons are accurate,light,long ranged
etc.But on the other side they lack stopping power plus Ak grade reliability. Plus SF units are not expected to engage enemies at a distance more than 100 or more of it.Its the general infantry which engages in >150mts range and that too in conventional battles in plains and deserts,Sf whether engaged in CT ops inside nation or behind enemy lines are not expected to shoot across "two nations".At a distance less than 150mts Aks and VZs are quite accurate if fired in semi or 2/3 round bursts which all the SF around globe are trained to do with even small caliber ,recoil less weapons like MP5s.
Plus VZ58 is a very light weapon like M4 with high stopping power. What ever be the advts say no weapon chamberes for 5.56 will work great in dust ,mud,water or snow as a typical Akm will . Instead of importing M4s SF could have imported the SOCOM kits made by arsenal USA to use in Aks and Vzs.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: M4 Rifles for Army SF Units

I just told what I saw in the vedio showing ak74 and M4. I just quoted tavor as an example only. But my point was that even if the M4 which is gonna get selected is not the infamous colt but rather developed HK416 or diemacao c7,there were much better options available just like Sigs,G36, ak10X series etc.

That is why i said difference between reality and hoax, One need to decide based on his experience,AKM are Outstanding Rifle, But TAR have its reasons, Main reason PARA got TAR-21 coz its bull-pup deign, But barrel of AR rifle, PARA forces carry compact weapons so does other Equipments, you can also see there Helmets are no regular issue like in Infantry..

Plus SF units are not expected to engage enemies at a distance more than 100 or more of it.Its the general infantry which engages in >150mts range and that too in conventional battles in plains and deserts

No, SF also use dedicated Sniper Units, Wont be using that if they are only limited to CQB ? SF are trained to face any challenge in any terrain at any range..

AK are good against CT ops and CQB, But in a regular battle or small conflicts like Kargil, Punjab, Rajasthan and other range is needed..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: M4 Rifles for Army SF Units

I have seen AK versus M16 /M4 those are for entertainment..

 

[ALBY]

That is why i said difference between reality and hoax, One need to decide based on his experience,AKM are Outstanding Rifle, But TAR have its reasons, Main reason PARA got TAR-21 coz its bull-pup deign, But barrel of AR rifle, PARA forces carry compact weapons so does other Equipments, you can also see there Helmets are no regular issue like in Infantry..

Did I ever opposed selection of tavors but switching over to 5.56 rifles as Standard weapons considering SF now days engage more in CT ops in dense forests of NE and J&K .
Tavors are excellent weapons with fine balnce and are reportedly less problamatic compared to other bullpups like L85 .
But there is no reason for M4s import considering more reliable were available.

No, SF also use dedicated Sniper Units, Wont be using that if they are only limited to CQB ? SF are trained to face any challenge in any terrain at any range..

Come on dude ....you knew that now days almost all the work undertaken by SF are of CT ops type or behind enemy lines type which are of shot distanced and surprise typed ones where M43 is good for many reasons. For long range ones why couldn't just import more tavors instead of M4s if SF is so fond of tavors?

AK are good against CT ops and CQB, But in a regular battle or small conflicts like Kargil, Punjab, Rajasthan and other range is needed..

Ps:in kargil 9th PARAs had used VZs instead of INSAS. Plus army need to do a silenced work which couldn't be done with Uzis then Aks are better options than M4s considering the performance. This deal is more in the interest of colt and Mod than the interest of SF.

 

[ALBY]

I
Secondly I do think the NAVAC guy is wrong,I can understand in the army SF if 2-3 years service is compulsory to attempt selection(eg:SAS,SSG) but in the IA SF no prior service required a GC can volunteer for Probation right from the academy.Hence I think the Same would go for MARCOS because I have seen MARCO's with ranks of Sub Lt.,Lt. because otherwise given 5 year period+training time all MARCO personnel would be Lt. Commanders.

. He could be probably wrong as he is just a recently inducted technical officer trainee.He told me the 2 years tough training time and compulsory 5 years service stuff all through phone which he is allowed to use once in a week. May be I heard it wrong.Next time I will get more details about it.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: M4 Rifles for Army SF Units

but switching over to 5.56 rifles as Standard weapons.

But there is no reason for M4s import considering more reliable were available.

you knew that now days almost all the work undertaken by SF are of CT ops type, ones where M43 is good for many reasons. For long range ones why couldn't just import more tavors instead of M4s if SF is so fond of tavors?

Ps:in kargil 9th PARAs had used VZs instead of INSAS. Plus army need to do a silenced work which couldn't be done with Uzis then Aks are better options than M4s considering the performance. This deal is more in the interest of colt and Mod than the interest of SF.

There are no good bull-pups Which chamber`s M43, besides many would argue why need another AK when one have VZ-58, Though PARA still have VZ-58 & AKM, In many occasion saw them with both, One is service other is captured, But TAR-21 is liked coz its accurate ( Less Shots & Very stable in suppressive fire )

US lobby at MOD..

VZ-58 was lighter than AKM and reliable as AKM compare to INSAS, And INSAS had many faults during that time..