Indian Special Forces (archived)

[vampyrbladez]

Thanks for your detailed explanation.
Please do indulge me one last time--were our forces and their commanders working on the assumption in THIS particular operation that the terrorists being chased/sought to be captured/killed were Indians?
Thanks.

Indications show they were ISI CAD as per @WARREN SS.

 

[Bhadra]

I was the one


I say again and read properly


What was the other squad doing?One squad was pinned down and the other reached next morning.

You call this military tactics?

It was not only the other squad but troops of 8 JAT and two other RR battalions who were all spread out in the Area. Imagine an operation going on fot four days where the terrorist are being corners but not located exactly.

Now you are imagining the that the terrorists were seen . located, pinpointed , tactics made and then the two squads should have fired and moved etc etc etc.

However things as per narrative turned out to be different. Under such circumstances the only tactics is to kill the other guy even if with ones teeths.... that is all.

falling down a slow clad precipice and falling / sliding into a Nullaha does not need any tactics instructor many are masquadering around in this forum.

What if there were no terrorists there. All five of them could still have dies- three by sheer fall and the two other in a rescue attempt. You would still open a book and a question bank ??

 

[Bhadra]

As I keep saying, the army is infallible, don't question them.

If one is not there and part of it, raising stupid question on imagination holding your other gun between your fingers in your room is plain stupidity and like what they say being a "Keen Kumar" . Be there with your feet deep inside six feet snow and then raise tactical questions.....

 

[Bhadra]

u should read about this op sir.

2 teams were doing top down approach..one got pinned down.

Oh for God sake ...... two squads not teams, not in support of each other or not one behind the other ...

being pinned down is under fire from a distance not falling on the lap or falling over the other guy.... then you are straight away pinned up and up... probably some icicle or bayonet up yours....

And the top down approach is never in file formation but mostly in single file or line ahead while one is going down a gentle slop....

You saw the picture and the photo .... top down such a steep gorge and cliff it is mostly on your ass with your cock ahead... under such white out conditions, more so when you have been dropped by a chopper, one's left hand does not know the right....

Imagine I pick you from Srinagar and then take you to battalion HQ where you are briefed and then I drop you on six feet snow on top of a steep ridge line from where two squads commence their search / lay stops.... at two different places, one of the team falls down into rock cliffs..

And then we have the Forum experts teaching them Commando tactics.....

Durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Oh for God sake ...... two squads not teams, not in support of each other or not one behind the other ...

being pinned down is under fire from a distance not falling on the lap or falling over the other guy.... then you are straight away pinned up and up... probably some icicle or bayonet up yours....

And the top down approach is never in file formation but mostly in single file or line ahead while one is going down a gentle slop....

You saw the picture and the photo .... top down such a steep gorge and cliff it is mostly on your ass with your cock ahead... under such white out conditions, more so when you have been dropped by a chopper, one's left hand does not know the right....

Imagine I pick you from Srinagar and then take you to battalion HQ where you are briefed and then I drop you on six feet snow on top of a steep ridge line from where two squads commence their search / lay stops.... at two different places, one of the team falls down into rock cliffs..

And then we have the Forum experts teaching them Commando tactics.....

Durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

I agree people on this forum are just writing nonsense with no meaning.

So lets hear it from someome who was present there.

Hope you understand hindi well.



Jab humne terrorist spot kia toh

Wha pe hum do squad me split ho gaye

Subeidar Sanjiv sahab ka squad nallay me gir gaya

 

[ALBY]

I agree people on this forum are just writing nonsense with no meaning.

So lets hear it from someome who was present there.

Hope you understand hindi well.

How difficult it would have been to get thermal signatures of men in such snowy scenes using choppers from above? Does army uses the helpnof such tingsbin such low profile ops jist like IAF used in pAthankot?
What could probably the reason itbtook so much time for the second squad to reach the spot once first team had made contact with tangos? Is it too dangerous to move in snow in darkness beacause of possible geographical traps, could it be the reason?
Sorry if the doubts are already been asked

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

How difficult it would have been to get thermal signatures of men in such snowy scenes using choppers from above? Does army uses the helpnof such tingsbin such low profile ops jist like IAF used in pAthankot?
What could probably the reason itbtook so much time for the second squad to reach the spot once first team had made contact with tangos? Is it too dangerous to move in snow in darkness beacause of possible geographical traps, could it be the reason?
Sorry if the doubts are already been asked

Thats what i am thinking too.

When the operator clearly says that we split into 2 squads towards the edge of a mountain how far could they be..i guess not so much so why it took so much time.

I guess i will have to assume coz people here take personal offennses on good questions because of inferiority complex of some kind.

I think the reason would be that they thought there might be a trap and more terrrorists could be waiting..the second thing that comes to mind is weather.

But in that case the helis could have helped if the weather was good.

 

[Vande1947]

Indications show they were ISI CAD as per @WARREN SS.

if that is so, then some of what @rkhanna has written to my query does not hold water.
this was precisely the thrust of my enquiries.

 

[Vande1947]

On an unrelated note, some members know less and some know more ( or at least claim to know more ). Barring a minuscule minority, I doubt that anyone here has actually served in the forces. Everyone is learning thru knowledge transfer and gain. Also, please remember that there are different age groups represented here.
So, my request to fellow members will be to be kind to each other and have patience. The language used here and impatience displayed at times is cringeworthy. Some arguments/points of view might appear facetious to the knowledgeable but might be the stumbling block for the uninitiated ( I am one of them ).
Thanks.

In this context, thanks to @rkhanna for his patient replies to my queries.

Jai Hind

 

[samsaptaka]

And you object to "hearts and minds" within the borders of your own country?

Sir, don’t you agree that this strategy has failed ? Yes, I am saying Op Sadnhavana while it is good PR is too much of a handicap wrt the ROE for the foot soldier. I am saying it is a failure because all that it has given us are more jihadis who are willing to pelt stones on our soldiers for as little as ₹100 bucks and 1000s of brainwashed people attending funeral of a slain terrorist. If Op Sadbhavana and hearts and mind is working, why are these above scenes repeating ad nauseum everytime a yahoo is cornered or his dead body is returned ?
This hearts and mind approach should be consigned to the dustbin.
The gloves must be removed. Start using helos and disproportionate fire power and watch how the yahoos melt away. There will be some collateral damage but heck I have a feeling the avg kashmiri muslim has already slept too much with jihadis.

 

[Bhadra]

Sir, don’t you agree that this strategy has failed ? Yes, I am saying Op Sadnhavana while it is good PR is too much of a handicap wrt the ROE for the foot soldier. I am saying it is a failure because all that it has given us are more jihadis who are willing to pelt stones on our soldiers for as little as ₹100 bucks and 1000s of brainwashed people attending funeral of a slain terrorist. If Op Sadbhavana and hearts and mind is working, why are these above scenes repeating ad nauseum everytime a yahoo is cornered or his dead body is returned ?
This hearts and mind approach should be consigned to the dustbin.
The gloves must be removed. Start using helos and disproportionate fire power and watch how the yahoos melt away. There will be some collateral damage but heck I have a feeling the avg kashmiri muslim has already slept too much with jihadis.

In an insurgency or terrorism infest area everything is "heart and mind". In fact population is the center of gravity for terrorist and Security Forces as also for all government agencies and political parties.

Military operations, be it offensive or defensive in nature, all are directed towards winning the confidence of that block of population which has swayed to the other side or is neutral. Killing the terrorist is also primarily directed to win over that block of population. The population does sway towards the govt side with each and every killing of the terrorist specially the large chunk of neutral population which tend to go with the winner. That is population psychology. and that is where all psychological operations play vital role.

Sadbhavana is primarily conducted in those areas which are far away from Urban Srinagar and in comparatively remote ares nearer to LC where Army including RR are deployed. That not only effects the population there but extends the reach of govt face looking like administration .... about 12 to 18 schools run by Army in remote areas are a great success. Meeting and get togethers such as Iftar parties etc provides a communication channel. It is easier for ladies and folks to talk to soldiers engaged in welfare activities rather than soldiers with grenades in hand.

Well I am personally aware of great intelligence success stories of a unit medical officer in Nagaland who used to gathered very vital informations during conducting significant numbers of medical termination of pregnancies in his medical room.

Sadabhavana in that context is an important ingredient of military operations....

It is so Cool....

 

[vampyrbladez]

How difficult it would have been to get thermal signatures of men in such snowy scenes using choppers from above? Does army uses the helpnof such tingsbin such low profile ops jist like IAF used in pAthankot?
What could probably the reason itbtook so much time for the second squad to reach the spot once first team had made contact with tangos? Is it too dangerous to move in snow in darkness beacause of possible geographical traps, could it be the reason?
Sorry if the doubts are already been asked

Last I read weather made the task of retrieving bodies difficult.

I guess they used drones and thermal signature was null so they assumed squad was wiped out along with tangos.

Kind of like the last scene of the movie Sehar (2005) where only the civilian professor survives and both the cops as well as gangsters are killed.

Also do check this YT video. It's about FBI's bloodiest day in the field ( 4 KIA 2 WIA vs 2 Tangos Killed)

 

[12arya]

Col NS Bal SC- 2 SF...passed away due to cancer

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

Paratrooper Chhatrapal Singh, 4 Para SF
Rest In Peace
Hero Credits/Source : https://instagram.com/p/B-yl-ABj1rm/?igshid=tgnzp10gzr6k…

See the equipment wasn't bad. EXFIL Highcut Ballistic Helmet with TONBO Arjun Thermal Sight
IWI G-TAR 21 with MKEK T40 UBGL
Bullet Resistant Jacket

 

[abingdonboy]

Paratrooper Chhatrapal Singh, 4 Para SF
Rest In Peace
Hero Credits/Source : https://instagram.com/p/B-yl-ABj1rm/?igshid=tgnzp10gzr6k…

See the equipment wasn't bad. EXFIL Highcut Ballistic Helmet with TONBO Arjun Thermal Sight
IWI G-TAR 21 with MKEK T40 UBGL
Bullet Resistant Jacket

“Wasn’t bad” but it’s isn’t good either- ill fitting helmet with no integrated comns, the ridiculous load carrier over BPJ set up and a cloth cover instead of a custom paint job for the rifle.


It all just looks like a compromise and the product of it is a very unergonomic loadout that would be a pain to wear just walking around base, forget in the mountains in waist deep snow.


He needs a correctly sized helmet for his head size with noise-cancelling headset, painted rifle, combat shirt and trousers with integrated knee and elbow pads and a proper plate carrier with front and back plates built in and MOLLE to customise his loadout to his requirements.

it’s not fking rocket science but sure keep buying 100 junk tanks and helicopters from Russia.


At this point just round up all serving and former 2 star and above generals put them in the back of a chinook and push them out over the mountains of Kashmir without a parachute.

[mention]abingdonboy [/mention] *last sentence removed*

 

[aditya10r]

“Wasn’t bad” but it’s isn’t good either- ill fitting helmet with no integrated comns, the ridiculous load carrier over BPJ set up and a cloth cover instead of a custom paint job for the rifle.


It all just looks like a compromise and the product of it is a very unergonomic loadout that would be a pain to wear just walking around base, forget in the mountains in waist deep snow.


He needs a correctly sized helmet for his head size with noise-cancelling headset, painted rifle, combat shirt and trousers with integrated knee and elbow pads and a proper plate carrier with front and back plates built in and MOLLE to customise his loadout to his requirements.

it’s not fking rocket science but sure keep buying 100 junk tanks and helicopters from Russia.


At this point just round up all serving and former 2 star and above generals put them in the back of a chinook and push them out over the mountains of Kashmir without a parachute. These b@stards have utterly failed every single man under their command for the last 70 years.

Have we heard of suppressor?

Don't they like help in encounters and help conceal position or something like that?

__________________________________________

This looks like a nudge above regular infantry in Kashmir.

Not much different than year 2000.

__________________________________________

 

[WARREN SS]

it’s not fking rocket science but sure keep buying 100 junk tanks and helicopters from Russia.

Better Cancel Alcohol Subsidies And CSD Facilities You have you 1-2 billion $ Spare To arm them

Dedicated Budget AFSOD that means 5

At this point just round up all serving and former 2 star and above generals put them in the back of a chinook and push them out over the mountains of Kashmir without a parachute. These b@stards have utterly failed every single man under their command for the last 70 years.

When You inherited 1.5 million Troops To run in 23 billion $ and With huge pension bill

 

[Holy Triad]

Imo,Encrypted comm systems are the most required stuff out of all much needed std. loadout.

Bcoz,other stuffs like firearms, high end plate carriers,high cut helmets etc, can be procured within 6 months for all serving operators. It simply matter of money and fast tracking the purchase.


But replacing existing comms with secure systems requires more than billion dollars worth of investmenI,if you want achieve seamless integration between different services and weapons system. even if you start today,it'll take more than a year to see full deployment.

Comm infrastructure needs to fulfill three critical requirements,

1. SFs to regular troops connectivity
2. SFs to HQ live feed (both video n audio)
3. Most importantly,SFs to support aircraft(s) connectivity.

Some basic work started years before,but delayed on beurocratic bs.


Optical fibre network for defence services faces time, cost overruns: Telecom Department

https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...s-telecom-department/articleshow/57812276.cms


Some key elements of such systems are given below,




SPECIAL FORCES COMMUNICATION GEAR - FOUR COMMON CHALLENGES



The Special forces communication gear challenge #1:

What communication gear to use in different misson phases (brief/planning, waiting/standby, in-action, post-action, mission debrief)?

MANY COMMUNICATION TOOLS; RADIOS, MOBILE PHONES, TABLETS, INTERCOMS, SAT-COMS ETC.
Communication needs vary depending on the mission phase. We see that many of the user groups today are equipped with both tactical command radios, soldier squad radios, broadband devices such as mobile phones/tablets, DMR radios, sat-com and intercom systems on different platforms. As the use of mobile phone type of devices and services increases, we see that a need for capability to easily swap between a regular phone call (point-to-point) to a conference call or vice versa also increases, as well as being able to run and operate a number of VOIP PTT type applications on your smart device. All this of course on top of the need to be able to run and operate a growing number of tactical and squad type of radios and intercom systems from a single device, a Special forces PTT unit.

Special forces communication gear challenge #2:

What communication gear to use in combination with the different communication devices and still be able to operate each of them efficiently?



WITH OR WITHOUT PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT; HELMET, TACTICAL BALLISTIC VEST, RESPIRATOR MASK, GLOVES ETC.

The use of hearing protection is mandatory for most of today´s Special forces teams.The combination of ballistic helmets and the need to maintain comm’s in all situations is typically solved by using helmet mounted hearing protection cups or in-ear worn plugs. This is still common and straight forward. The challenge matrix only gets more complex when adding a respiratory mask, tactical ballistic vest and gloves to the mix. One clear challenge within this area is the possibility to communicate clearly with civilians, hostages or hostiles.



Special forces communication gear challenge #3:
What communication gear to use when using a full matrix of protective equipment and still wanting to be able to communicate with non-team members?



HEADSETS, HEADSETS, HEADSETS
Indeed, the need for having a Special Forces headset is obvious. However, as the need from the operational perspective is difficult if not impossible to predict from one mission to another, it is also clear that many Special Forces operators are not able to use a single headset solution for all mission scenarios. The need varies from only a simple semi covert earpiece to full covert communications set with in-ear miniature speaker, from low cost passive hearing protection earbuds with boom microphone to simple tactical headsets, from active tactical headsets to tactical headgear systems. Finding a communication gear that is capable of interfacing and running all these types of headset options can be challenging.


Special forces ommunication challenge #4:

What communication gear can provide the broadest headset options for the varying mission requirements?

https://blog.savox.com/special-forc...KHb3PWsbdjh0xw1acRV7t4GAsV-_Ty00Ij-uRv935PV7A




Secure Communication in the Armed Forces
Crypto AG


All means of communication have their place and rationale in the normal course of everyday military life. Voice is still the fastest and most natural way of communicating from person to person, and it needs no or few facilities. To exchange sensor data or to control weapons platforms, however, voice is not suitable. Data links are used for this purpose.

Messaging for Command and Reporting Level
Messaging indisputably has its advantages at the command and reporting level. Messaging is the military version of e-mail or the modern form of the ‘message runner’. Written commands and situation reports are clear, unambiguous and reproducible. Suitable means ensure that the recipient can be sought (and found) via different routes, or that delegates are informed and activated via automatic forwarding. Messaging can be and is used at all levels and in different corps, both in non-combat areas (planning, support, logistics) and also in fighting troop sections. The levels range from the uppermost command level to platoon, and more recently to the level of the individual. By forwarding attachments, comprehensive images and data can be transmitted to the recipient.

MultiCom Radio Encryption - The Universal Encryption Platform
Today, radio communications take place over an extremely wide frequency range. Many different transmission ranges, operating modes and bandwidths are available. In many civilian and military organisations, these options are used in parallel. It is therefore vital that the encryption is standardised and can guarantee compatibility between the different applications.

Crypto AG offers a universal solution which provides compatibility and simplifies operation: MultiCom Radio Encryption can be used for virtually all frequency ranges (HF, VHF, UHF, SatCom) and operating modes (narrowband/wideband digital voice encryption, data encryption, secure messaging, IP VPN). It is suitable both for single channel applications (mobile, desktop) as well as for integration in multi-channel command and control systems. The system is extremely robust and can be used it in vehicles, tanks, coastal and ocean-going ships, aircraft and helicopters.

The flexible and universal MultiCom Radio Encryption can be used for virtually all frequency ranges, operating modes and services.

Crypto Field Terminal – The All-In-One Military Messaging System
The Crypto Field Terminal is no ordinary laptop: It is a unit housed safely in a robust case, protected against damp, cold, heat, vibrations or knocks. It is an all-in-one messaging system with integrated application, communication and encryption.

It can be used flexibly everywhere, and autonomously, without great installation expense. This workstation allows a very high level of mobility thanks to the integrated and end-to-end secure-messaging application and the robust communication channels available.

The Crypto Field Terminal is also very well suited for fixed installations on land and on the high seas. Communication is via telephone or HF, VHF or UHF radio because the appropriate modems and the transmission protocols for most applications are available. Moreover, an analogue telephone modem is already built in.

The Crypto Field Terminal is designed to provide local security and secure communication via telephone or radio at tactical and strategic level.

Deployable Systems for Highly Mobile Communication via Satellite
Satellite communication – SatCom – is the communication channel of choice in cases where the terrestrial telecommunication infrastructure is in danger of breaking down or has already done so, for example during crises or in remote areas. Additionally, SatCom is an option if the terrestrial infrastructure does not allow enough bandwidth or there is a need to be mobile.

The new deployable secure satellite systems from Crypto AG consist of one, two or three easily deployable cases with integrated satellite communication, application and encryption equipment. The cases are available as "Traveller Case" for civil use as "Heavy Duty Case" ruggedised versions for military purposes. Each case can be configured with modules and applications. The main versions available are:

• Satellite Phone Fax System using the „classic“ (PSTN) applications phone and fax – or the ones based on TCP/IP: VoIP/FoIP

• Satellite Office Client System enabling standard IT applications (Email, Intranet, etc.) and/or real-time applications (VoIP, FoIP, Video Conferencing)

• Satellite Messaging System

Satellite Phone System consisting of satellite terminal, phone and the PSTN encryption unit from Crypto AG as well as the necessary accessories in a ruggedised case.



https://www.copybook.com/companies/crypto-ag/articles/secure-communication-in-the-armed-forces




As I said earlier,Out of all other required equipments,comms(full spectrum) are the most complex piece of the puzzle which requires considerable amount of time and money to achieve.

 

[mupper]

Why send a fire team for such mission. At least a squad should have been the norm. You don't send a fire team for area domination. That too special forces. Something is disturbing imho I may not have all the facts, but you know you will make contact with the enemy. You send a fire team without air support.something is weird

The western trend for an SF "team" aka a patrol etc for everyone from the various SAS's, almost all NATO and NATO standard SF/SOF/NSW etc is 6 men, the days of the 4 man patrol is pretty much gone. so it seems the Indian SF have adopted that too.

Also this seems like a pursuit operation....so these guys role might have been as a blocking force or a beating team...aka blocking the OF into a set area or actively pushing them towards another larger force.
It's a fairly standard tactic, the Brits/Americans did it at the start of operations in the Tora Bora mountains in Astan back in the day.

Unless we know the scale of the other forces and resources involved I think it would be a mistake to think these lads were the only ones involved.....it was just a bizarre contact they wound up in....it happens.

 

[mupper]

Question from an outsider. Do Indian SOF/SO LE etc send their patrol medics etc on secondment to hospitals. We do it here (and most others in Europe etc do too) to learn more advanced skill sets, trauma medicine etc that you can't get on a sterile mil course?