Indian Special Forces (archived)

[samsaptaka]

How special are PLA special forces?

After reading that shitty propoganda article , the answer is - not so special at all !

 

[Suryavanshi]

Cannot agree more. We are rich enough to equip our finest with gear on par with the west. Pvt sector defence industries like Tonbo imaging, SSS Defence, MKU and many more already have the tech in their hands. It is the political will and "chalta hai" attitude which fails us everytime.

Most of the time we have to throw more bodies into the fight to overcome the technological gap.
It doesn't bother the politician or the bureaucrats at the top because they don't have to face the bullet.
During Kargil war Army was let down by faulty Insas and then OFB that ran out of shell. Baba kalyani had to step in to maintain the supply, also emergency procurement were carried out to make up for the shortage of ammunition.

Politician get money, Babus remain in the safety of their AC rooms, PSU get underserved money. The common soldiers get faulty rifles cheap boots and some and ww2 era helmet.
Things could have been done better in Kargil war.
And if u think advocating basic equipments for Soldier amounts to being an armchair general than u can shove this middle finger up ur ass.

 

[abingdonboy]

Thanks for taking that post.

I am tired of these "we are soo secretive" bullshit from the fanboys.

They dont watch encounter videos from youtube and see for themselves.

Ya soo secretive they are that they would be killed in ops doing room intervention just to keep the secrecy..

Fucking stupid are you?

Indeed, just have to watch any live encounter vids to see how inept they are in real world ops, there isn't any super secret equipment that they are hiding

This is as good as it gets- ill fitting BPJs, no standard uniforms, basic Patkas/ACHs, no real comes, no NODs anywhere to be seen, no med packs, sometimes not even spare ammo, rarely sidearms, no modern plate carriers of course, nothing that would mark these out as Special Forces anywhere else in the world.

Oh but they have Tavors so clearly they are super soldiers now.

Exactly...and hate to think that we are dumb or what..

Decades old war and we have not invented any weapons or things.

It took us 25 years to "import" ballistic shields from outside...I mean dont we have a fcking brain to make something like that for room intervention.

Same about cornershot or bpj.

On one hand we are reaching moon and conquering space and on the other hand we are dumb...it doesnt make any sense.

This is what has always blown my mind, fighting this fight for almost 3 decades and in that time they have adopted/ developed almost no new equipment or tactics.

Israelis face similar threats and their response has been to become the gold standard in CT that gives lessons to other countries, after 26/11 who did MH police turn to? Indian SOF community? Nope, the Israelis.

CoD warriors should know that Para SF is employed along the LoC at all times, whether its daytime or night. Here is an example of what I am talking about from the recent Republic Day Gallantry awards.

I don't know what this is meant to prove, I never doubted they were brave individuals but the Indian SOF community as a whole is a joke and not worthy of the praise they get from fanboys.

Furthermore, like I said- they are decent commandos in the traditional 1940s/1960s way but they are NOT 21st century warfighters and would (and do) get ripped apart in a modern asymmetric conflict. You think these guys could be deployed to Syria or Iraq as US/NATO SOFs are today and deleiver the same results? You're delusional if you think your answer is yes.

There is nothing to display for your or my consumption. There is no need. The whole point of having Special Forces is to make sure they can do their operations without any Tom,Dick, and Harry needing to know every single detail about their existence!

These guys are so unserious that they manage to carry out every single task that is given to them and do it with minimum casualties. 2016 Surgical strikes, 2015 Myanmar strikes.... the list is endless. Just because they don't look like the jokers you see in your latest XBOX or Playstation consoles you start crying uncle.

Unlike your and that joker aviator's imaginary world, I choose to live in reality and results speak for themselves

And you can keep dreaming that these guys have some unique capabilities just because they happen to be Indian, there's no objective evidence that they are anywhere near the top tier of global SOFs. They have had modest successes as a commando force but pretty much all their actual SF missions are a pretty poor performance- EDI is just one of countless examples.

Weep you piece of shits.

Do not descend to this, have some respect fro your fellow countrymen.

 

[IndiaRising]

again, the hype machine continues to praise Western SOF for taking part in raids in Syria or Iraq against 5th-pass Jihadi warriors equipped with Soviet era weapons, yet Para SF has had "modest successes "defending against an insurgency fueled by a nuclear power for the past 30 years. See how the standards are. For the past 20 years, all NATO troops with their super-gold plated equipment achieved ghanta in terms of results in Afghanistan, yet Para SF achieved "modest successes" in spanking Pakistan and its proxies continuously whenever they were asked to do so. Id rather have men who deliver in terms of results, instead of those who continuously have propaganda built around them to even portray small successes as massive victories.

2015 Myanmar strikes- going 40 km in enemy territory and returning without casualties- poor performance LOL

2016 surgical strikes- attacking a nuclear power in one of the most military-dense environments like the LoC, akin to the DMZ in Korea along 4 different locations, killing close to 60 of their jihadis and returning without a single casualty. this is what 1940 commandos managed to achieve yet we are supposed to blindly worship NATO forces because oh look they have a shiny new BPJ and that exotic modern plate carrier.... lets gather around them and build a temple

 

[abingdonboy]

again, the hype machine continues to praise Western SOF for taking part in raids in Syria or Iraq against 5th-pass Jihadi warriors equipped with Soviet era weapons, yet Para SF has had "modest successes "defending against an insurgency fueled by a nuclear power for the past 30 years. See how the standards are. For the past 20 years, all NATO troops with their super-gold plated equipment achieved ghanta in terms of results in Afghanistan, yet Para SF achieved "modest successes" in spanking Pakistan and its proxies continuously whenever they were asked to do so. Id rather have men who deliver in terms of results, instead of those who continuously have propaganda built around them to even portray small successes as massive victories.

Instead of talking in broad strokes you need to be specific


And again, this is about equipment and the knock-on effect it has on capabilities. How exactly does Indian SF overcome their vast technical inferiority as compared to other SF units? Just by naturally be better? By being supermen?

Your argument that Indian SF are ultra effective whereas Western SF are overhyped makes little sense, look at raw capabilities. Could any Indian SF unit conduct a mission like that that took out OBL? Not a chance. The one that rescued Captain Phillips in the middle of the Ocean? You've got to be joking.


There are countless examples of extraordinary missions Western SFs have undertaken that Indian SF can only dream of- the most Indian SF have to their names is trekking a few KMs into Pak territory and blowing up some huts.

Asserting that superior equipment doesn't lead superior capabilities is beyond asinine and this kind of view is the very kind that has lead to this mess, PARA (SF) officers and the leadership above them actually believe this BS that they are more capable even with junk equipment just well....because.


Indian SF would get torn apart in Afghanistan or Iraq and that is just the sad reality.

 

[Waanar]

again, the hype machine continues to praise Western SOF for taking part in raids in Syria or Iraq against 5th-pass Jihadi warriors equipped with Soviet era weapons, yet Para SF has had "modest successes "defending against an insurgency fueled by a nuclear power for the past 30 years. See how the standards are. For the past 20 years, all NATO troops with their super-gold plated equipment achieved ghanta in terms of results in Afghanistan, yet Para SF achieved "modest successes" in spanking Pakistan and its proxies continuously whenever they were asked to do so. Id rather have men who deliver in terms of results, instead of those who continuously have propaganda built around them to even portray small successes as massive victories.

Set America in India's geographical location and wait for the storm.

5th pass Jihadi warriors with Soviet era weapons?

-
(radio sets)

HECK, They even captured a MiG ffs.
I don't know which soviets you are talking about but if you're talking about the ones I know of, no.... These weapons aren't from their era.

 

[IndiaRising]

Instead of talking in broad strokes you need to be specific


And again, this is about equipment and the knock-on effect it has on capabilities. How exactly does Indian SF overcome their vast technical inferiority as compared to other SF units? Just by naturally be better? By being supermen?

Your argument that Indian SF are ultra effective whereas Western SF are overhyped makes little sense, look at raw capabilities. Could any Indian SF unit conduct a mission like that that took out OBL? Not a chance. The one that rescued Captain Phillips in the middle of the Ocean? You've got to be joking.


There are countless examples of extraordinary missions Western SFs have undertaken that Indian SF can only dream of- the most Indian SF have to their names is trekking a few KMs into Pak territory and blowing up some huts.

Asserting that superior equipment doesn't lead superior capabilities is beyond asinine and this kind of view is the very kind that has lead to this mess, PARA (SF) officers and the leadership above them actually believe this BS that they are more capable even with junk equipment just well....because.


Indian SF would get torn apart in Afghanistan or Iraq and that is just the sad reality.

OBL operation???? Is that all you got? a fixed match between CIA and ISI is being compared to making ingresses in a military dense environment like the LoC and returning without a SINGLE casualty. In Iraq, what have they achieved in practical terms? A tinpot general like Soleimani was enough to keep them at bay despite his irregular troops being vastly under equipped in comparison to NATO forces.

Countless operations of success, like regular failures against Taliban for the past 20 years despite having the superior equipment you claim. Indian SF don't need to be degraded in comparison with those who hype their smallest successes and deny their biggest failures.

 

[IndiaRising]

Set America in India's geographical location and wait for the storm.

5th pass Jihadi warriors with Soviet era weapons?

-
(radio sets)

HECK, They even captured a MiG ffs.
I don't know which soviets you are talking about but if you're talking about the ones I know of, no.... These weapons aren't from their era.

ehh most of the junk they have is indeed from the Soviet Era. whatever modern weapons they have could have been captured from either Syrian or Iraqi armies. here is a small list. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_equipment_of_ISIL

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Your argument that Indian SF are ultra effective whereas Western SF are overhyped makes little sense, look at raw capabilities. Could any Indian SF unit conduct a mission like that that took out OBL? Not a chance. The one that rescued Captain Phillips in the middle of the Ocean? You've got to be joking.

Dunno about Western special forces.
But we have faced western trained Special forces. If india have stealth helicopters and other equipments then OSBL raid is nothing more than house invasion.

Since its establishment in 1956, the Army Special Service Group have been regularly interacted and trained together with the United States Army Special Forces–though the Pakistan Army's infantry branch had first participated in Exercise Vulcan and Exercise Handicap in 1954.[5]:14[44] Besides training and the interaction with the United States Army, Pakistan Army Special Service Group have held joint special warfare training exercises with the Special Air Service (SAS) of the British Army, Special Forces Command of the Turkish Land Forces, Special Operation Forces of the Royal Jordanian Army, the Special Operation Forces of the Chinese People's Liberation Army Ground Forces

Since 1998, the Army Special Service Group biannually conducts the military exercise with the Turkish Land Forces's Special Forces, which have been designated as the "Jinnah–Ataturk Series."[45] The military exercise held in Pakistan is known as "Ataturk Exercise" while in Turkey, it is known as "Jinnah Exercise."[45] The first of these series of exercise were held in Pakistan, with twenty-one Turkish Land Forces officers and fourteen enlists coming to Pakistan for the exercise– Pakistan reciprocated the visit in 2000.[45] The Jinnah-Ataturk Series are oriented and focused towards the snow, high-altitude, and mountain warfare."[45]
In 2008–09, the Army Special Service Group, together with the United States Army Special Forces, participated in the multinational security exercise

And in neither operation SSG troops with" better certified training and weapons were able to give india heavy damages "
So why Pakistan is not ahead of india in RAW capabilities?

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

again, the hype machine continues to praise Western SOF for taking part in raids in Syria or Iraq against 5th-pass Jihadi warriors equipped with Soviet era weapons, yet Para SF has had "modest successes "defending against an insurgency fueled by a nuclear power for the past 30 years. See how the standards are. For the past 20 years, all NATO troops with their super-gold plated equipment achieved ghanta in terms of results in Afghanistan, yet Para SF achieved "modest successes" in spanking Pakistan and its proxies continuously whenever they were asked to do so. Id rather have men who deliver in terms of results, instead of those who continuously have propaganda built around them to even portray small successes as massive victories.

2015 Myanmar strikes- going 40 km in enemy territory and returning without casualties- poor performance LOL

2016 surgical strikes- attacking a nuclear power in one of the most military-dense environments like the LoC, akin to the DMZ in Korea along 4 different locations, killing close to 60 of their jihadis and returning without a single casualty. this is what 1940 commandos managed to achieve yet we are supposed to blindly worship NATO forces because oh look they have a shiny new BPJ and that exotic modern plate carrier.... lets gather around them and build a temple

Look, no one is degrading the Para SF. I am just saying that they need better weapons and equipment. If the Para SF is capable of succeding in taking out terror proxies seated in Pakistan with mediocre weapons, then just imagine how much more damage they can cause with top of the line, gold standard equipment on par with that of Western SOF.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

Look, no one is degrading the Para SF. I am just saying that they need better weapons and equipment. If the Para SF is capable of succeding in taking out terror proxies seated in Pakistan with mediocre weapons, then just imagine how much more damage they can cause with top of the line, gold standard equipment on par with that of Western SOF.

And nearly 90% of this state of art equipment can be procured from the indigenous defence industry. It just the political will which is missing.

 

[armyofhind]

There are countless examples of extraordinary missions Western SFs have undertaken that Indian SF can only dream of- the most Indian SF have to their names is trekking a few KMs into Pak territory and blowing up some huts.

uhhh.... Nope.

Op Khukri? Inserting a recon element within 50mtrs from the enemy and then releasing entire two companies from tangos, that too from drug crazed yahoos like RUF, is not a small feat.

Raid on Mandhol? Striking 70 kms deep into a front-line during a war to destroy a detachment of arty guns isnt a small feat either.

I'm not even going into the undercover ops conducted by SF during the heydays of the Kashmir militancy. Or the Tiger Team jungle penetration missions done under IPKF.

and its a pretty open secret that Indian SF were in Afghanistan supporting Ahmed Shah Massoud against Taliban long before the Green Berets ever landed there. I've heard the stories second hand, but they are probably as good as it gets in terms of sensitive info coming out.

So to say that Indian SF doesn't have spectacular operations to its credit, isn't being fair.

And again, this is about equipment and the knock-on effect it has on capabilities. How exactly does Indian SF overcome their vast technical inferiority as compared to other SF units? Just by naturally be better? By being supermen?

coming to this, I believe what other members are trying to say, and its an opinion that I share as well, is that gear isnt everything. In fact, there have been accounts from within the US SOF community only, of gear failing them at the most critical of times. Op Red Wing is a case in point, with their Comms failing at a critical moment.

And apart from that, US SOF has seen a pretty high casualty rate in Afghanistan as well, some data points can be explored to compare that with Indian SF in Kashmir.
Only GROM seems to have done really well, but then again, the scope of their ops in Afghanistan has been limited.

I agree on the point that new gear spawns new tactics and new SOP's, but gear procurement isnt really the job of the boots on the ground. The men dont procure gear, even the officer's dont, they can only recommend and carry out testing, its the babus who have been doing it and thats where the entire travesty lies.
Now with the appointment of CDS and a Special Operations command, and with the coming of Rajnath Singh as Defence minister (NSG underwent a complete transformation with him as Home Minister) I expect things to change and that time will tell.

As the past 5 years have passed by, I have observed the equipment profile of atleast the RR units deployed in the Valley change quite a bit from where it was before that. Standardisation is coming in, in terms of PPE, optics, even ballistic shields etc.
Its safe to say that similar changes have happened on the end of SF as well. (by the way the photos that you've posted showing poor equipment levels of Indian SF are from 2010-11).
Still a lot to go in terms of integrated comms with tactical and strategic channels etc. but we as outsiders can only hope for the best.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

Just imagine all our Para SF units being equipped with:
Glock Pistols
Tavor/M4/SSS defence assualt rifles
SSS Defence sniper rifles
MKU bullet proof jackets
MKU high cut ballastic helmets(HCBH)
Negev LMG or equivalent indigenous SAW
Tonbo Bnvd-P
state of the art comms and imaging equipment
better armoured vehicles/armoured troop carriers
dedicated dhruv and rudra helo fleet

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Dunno about Western special forces.
But we have faced western trained Special forces. If india have stealth helicopters and other equipments then OSBL raid is nothing more than house invasion.

Since its establishment in 1956, the Army Special Service Group have been regularly interacted and trained together with the United States Army Special Forces–though the Pakistan Army's infantry branch had first participated in Exercise Vulcan and Exercise Handicap in 1954.[5]:14[44] Besides training and the interaction with the United States Army, Pakistan Army Special Service Group have held joint special warfare training exercises with the Special Air Service (SAS) of the British Army, Special Forces Command of the Turkish Land Forces, Special Operation Forces of the Royal Jordanian Army, the Special Operation Forces of the Chinese People's Liberation Army Ground Forces

Since 1998, the Army Special Service Group biannually conducts the military exercise with the Turkish Land Forces's Special Forces, which have been designated as the "Jinnah–Ataturk Series."[45] The military exercise held in Pakistan is known as "Ataturk Exercise" while in Turkey, it is known as "Jinnah Exercise."[45] The first of these series of exercise were held in Pakistan, with twenty-one Turkish Land Forces officers and fourteen enlists coming to Pakistan for the exercise– Pakistan reciprocated the visit in 2000.[45] The Jinnah-Ataturk Series are oriented and focused towards the snow, high-altitude, and mountain warfare."[45]
In 2008–09, the Army Special Service Group, together with the United States Army Special Forces, participated in the multinational security exercise

And in neither operation SSG troops with" better certified training and weapons were able to give india heavy damages "
So why Pakistan is not ahead of india in RAW capabilities?

And when we compare Kashmir with Afghanistan we timely again and again forgot that indian army trains more for High intensity warfare rather than covert ones if government allows Tanks and helicopter in kashmir who knows then after few weeks POk is also part of india

And terrorists in kashmir nowadays when border is too hot with continues pounding are not kiddies pakistan will obviously push efforts to send the ones which are of top of the line.

For example -
This was a classic commando raid replete with beach landing et al. It had all the markings of a thorough Pakistani SSG trained operation – which makes it a Pakistani Army action.

This was not your ordinary terrorist operation – our NSG commandos can flush these “terrorists” out in 10 minutes flat – no more. What Mumbai saw, was a sophisticated assault by Pakistan on India.

The total number of terrorists who came to India are rumored to be 40, of which 29 are Pakistani and the rest from Bangladesh. About 20 came in a week before and the rest a few days back from sea. A couple of them were in India for some time, having found jobs in catering divisions of hotels that were attacked to facilitate arms storage and logistics through service areas. Not all, I expect, will be commando trained - neither will the majority be ex-army / commando embedded in LeT (Lashkar e Tayyiba). What is interesting this time - India has captured one terrorist alive and though badly injured, apparently he is being made to SING and SINGING he is.

Let’s look at the footprints of a classic commando raid : It had stealth “undetected” entry, speed, precision, accuracy, cohesion, ferocity and aggression, clarity of thought and action, planning and reconnoitering, dry runs and degree of resistance.

What gave them away too was weapons handling, the way to hold and fire assault rifles, the way to throw grenades etc. Like a good martial artist knows another good martial artist, our NSG and MARCOS commandos knew they were up against (mostly) SSG trained commandos.

Whatever our media tells us or puts a spin, make no mistake, this was an out and out classic commando raid.

They took down a NSG officer and a few commandos.

Hence these “terrorists” were not the ordinary terrorists one encounters around the world. They received 3 months standard high end commando training by SSG trainers. A few could have been terrorists drawn from the usual basket, but the best of the best to have to pass the gruelling commando course. Normally, these small groups of commando saboteurs are led by SSG Major and I will not be surprised to see one in this raid too.

These commando terrorists did not hide their faces, and it looks like they wanted to convey a message that they were commandos. Which gives rise to the question – Pakistan wanted to send a message to India – what could that be?

ISI Chief and Gen Kiyani are coming to India(NOW IT TRANSPIRES, THEY ARE NOT AND ARE SENDING "REPRESENTATIVES" (yawn !!). Expect nothing much out of this. The old story will be played out. India will offer “proof of Pakistani involvement” and Pakistan will deny it.

has been a well thought of strategy of Pakistan Army to embed the Taliban and terrorist organizations like Lashkar e Taiyyba, Jaish e Mohammad, Lashkar e Jahagvi with its own soldiers and commandos. These army recruits blend in with Taliban and terror organizations, deemed to have gone "native", maybe without the knowledge of Taliban / terror organizations who are just happy to have received high class "recruits".

Pakistan Army, through ISI, now draws back its own cadres from Taliban and these terror organizations for special operations around the globe. For Mumbai attacks, Lashkar e Taiyyba was chosen - but the actual foot soldiers were ex-army soldiers including SSG commandos (leading the charge) already embedded in these organizations - as well as a few battle hardened fidayeen terrorists. These LeT "terrorists" were given rigourous training by either current or ex-SSG commando trainers (sufficiently bearded to evade detect) who will probably be known as Gen Saab or Gen Mohd (aka John Doe).

After training, the underworld network of Dawood Ibrahim takes over the logistics of ferrying these so called "terrorists" to India and within India. The arms shipment is taken care by a specialized unit of Pakistan Army that affords it complete deniability.

26/11 Mumbai terror attack: Court issues non-bailable warrant against 2 Pakistan Army officials
Both officials are 'wanted accused' in the investigation of the Mumbai terrorist attacks that took place on November 26, 2008. One of them, Major Iqbal, is still serving in Pakistani Army.https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.in...-2-pakistan-army-officials-1445711-2019-02-03

 

[Waanar]

Women and children taken hostage by a convict screaming of his innocence in Farrukhabad. Hurled a weak bomb out the window too, the sick, poor bastard.

ATS on spot and NSG mobilizing.

Don't mean to sound like a cold blooded cunt but it'll be a true test of NSG's skill and expertise, provided the convict doesn't lose his shit before negotiations even start...

 

[Bleh]

Raid on Mandhol? Striking 70 kms deep into a front-line during a war to destroy a detachment of arty guns isnt a small feat either.

Never understood the point of this one... Why not simply do an airstrikes the location of the arty were known?

 

[vampyrbladez]

Here is the kit our soldiers are using or will use in the near future :

IA - Regular Infantry

Special Forces - Standard Kit

NSG

IA - Ghatak Force (1st Operator)

 

[Suryavanshi]

Here is the kit our soldiers are using or will use in the near future :

View attachment 42146

IA - Regular Infantry

View attachment 42147

Special Forces - Standard Kit

View attachment 42148

View attachment 42150

NSG

View attachment 42149

IA - Ghatak Force (1st Operator)

Somewhere between terrible and Average.
No com set in any of them.

Helmet problem will be solved as most infantry, RR, CRPF will get standard issue helemt.

Armour problem will he solved with the arrival of SMPP vests. 1.5 million order placed.

Rifle problem will be soved after the Arrival of AK 203.

If u have been following the latest loc covering then u can see this particular scope with most of the patrolling troops

Se this video

Spoiler

Also this night vision is also spotted a lot

Looks like these two products from Tonbo were mass produced.

Also this MOLLE is seen on almost every soldier these days.

Amd what the fuck are these kitchen gloves, otherwise a decent load out.

TBH RR has the most visible change in terms of Equipment don't know about the PARA or infantry.


So conclusion soldiers on forward borders have been given best of the best equipment that is available in the inventory.

But this isn't a monolith some units have the best some have none.

Standardisation , Procurement and Implementation is clearly the problem.

 

[Suryavanshi]

TONBO has done a lot of service to the nation
They may be corporate entity but their spirit is Indian to the core.

 

[south block]

TONBO has done a lot of service to the nation
They may be corporate entity but their spirit is Indian to the core.

Their tech is foreign ---- nothing indigenous about them.