Indian Special Forces (archived)

[vampyrbladez]

Miscellaneous

It’s funny isn’t it, the contempt and venom the military leadership and those retired from it have for the IPS but this IPS run organisation has utterly humiliated them in terms of their transformation and capability upgrade and this isn’t a isolated case- most units under MHA have more modern small arms than those under MOD.

I guess military folks want to demean IPS because if IPS performs it will only further highlight what frauds Indian military leadership is and the jolly ride they’ve been taking the Indian public on all these years- 100s of billions thrown at them for very very mediocre returns. Where did all the money go I wonder becuase we know how adverse they are to Indian products.

BC that is NSG! They finally look like an FBI HRT now! ROFL Garud boyz!

 

[Suryavanshi]

BC that is NSG! They finally look like an FBI HRT now! ROFL Garud boyz!

Yo what was GARUD even supposed to do?
Never heard of a air force special force before.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Yo what was GARUD even supposed to do?
Never heard of a air force special force before.

Those are our equivalent of the Special Tactics unit of USAF. These guys are the youngest SF and have a fairly mixed record.

 

[rkhanna]

Yo what was GARUD even supposed to do?
Never heard of a air force special force before.

Huh? Airforce SOF is a thing.

Do a Google of American AFSOC with units like STS / Pararescue , 160th SOAR,

Or the Israeli Unit 669 and 5700

Or the RAF JTAC with the UKSFSG

Or the French Air Parachute Commando And DOS units

Or the Pakistani SSW

 

[indiatester]

Huh? Airforce SOF is a thing.

Do a Google of American AFSOC with units like STS / Pararescue , 160th SOAR,

Or the Israeli Unit 669 and 5700

Or the RAF JTAC with the UKSFSG

Or the French Air Parachute Commando And DOS units

Or the Pakistani SSW

Won't it be better for army which specializes in land based ops to take ownership here? I mean, I expect the senior leadership of AF to be experts on air warfare, and not necessarily on ground based engagements at close quarters. I do expect the army leadership for this aspect though.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Won't it be better for army which specializes in land based ops to take ownership here? I mean, I expect the senior leadership of AF to be experts on air warfare, and not necessarily on ground based engagements at close quarters. I do expect the army leadership for this aspect though.

Rescuing downed pilots, picking out targets via laser pointing them, securing airfields, etc are some the jobs done by Garuds.

 

[rkhanna]

Won't it be better for army which specializes in land based ops to take ownership here? I mean, I expect the senior leadership of AF to be experts on air warfare, and not necessarily on ground based engagements at close quarters. I do expect the army leadership for this aspect though.

<not talking about Garud but AF SOF in general>

The Whole point of an AF SOF capability is to bring cohesiveness to Combined Arms Warfare. Its not about AF fights in the sky and Army fights on land etc.

They all fight together.

That being said the Army simply doesnt have the time to bring Army SOF soldiers up to the same level of skill and understanding of technology as the AF has.

AF SOF can take down an airfield and communication towers and build up an AirTrafficControl out of no where. They Can JAM/Take over enemy radios waves and other Comm Infra for propogranda purposes

AF SOF know how various munitions of the AirForce assets work and their capability so know which munition to call in for a strike

AF SOF play mini ATC to AWACs as well. In one skrimish in Iraq 2 ODAs stumbled upon an entire RG Brigade in a city and the only way to stay alive was to bring in Air Power. the Attached JTACs had to coordinate over 200 Aircraft in the Air - Stack them up based on their ordnance and fuel capacity limitations of the AirCraft (their staying power on station) and bring in strikes on a rotational basis all while Making sure ordnance didnt fall on their own soldiers. WHILE the ODA guys were fully engaged. Do you realise how much math that is - Caluclating Speed / Height of various Aircraft, Keeping a Track of what munitions they are carrying, Keeping track of their Fuel so that no AC has to return without emptying his load, etc etc

The Other JTAC was using his SIGINT Gear to determine where in the city the HVTs where located. try to determine from enemy transmissions where civilians were located and bring in airpower accordingly to be effective all while trying to layer a GPS Grid on maps that had never been documented by their intel before.

The Airpower in support included Predator Drones, Apaches, C-130s Specters, F15s, F16s AWACs, RAF Tornados. -

Can you imagine the level of skill required to coordinate all of that being on the ground with a couple of radios and GPS behind a SandDune?

That alone requires an insane amount of knowledge of technology and knowledge of capability of their own AF. which no Army guy is EVER going to have.


And last but not the Least the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment is the cutting edge of Special Operations Capability and has nothing to do with shooters or boots on the ground.

 

[Knowitall]

<not talking about Garud but AF SOF in general>

The Whole point of an AF SOF capability is to bring cohesiveness to Combined Arms Warfare. Its not about AF fights in the sky and Army fights on land etc.

They all fight together.

That being said the Army simply doesnt have the time to bring Army SOF soldiers up to the same level of skill and understanding of technology as the AF has.

AF SOF can take down an airfield and communication towers and build up an AirTrafficControl out of no where. They Can JAM/Take over enemy radios waves and other Comm Infra for propogranda purposes

AF SOF know how various munitions of the AirForce assets work and their capability so know which munition to call in for a strike

AF SOF play mini ATC to AWACs as well. In one skrimish in Iraq 2 ODAs stumbled upon an entire RG Brigade in a city and the only way to stay alive was to bring in Air Power. the Attached JTACs had to coordinate over 200 Aircraft in the Air - Stack them up based on their ordnance and fuel capacity limitations of the AirCraft (their staying power on station) and bring in strikes on a rotational basis all while Making sure ordnance didnt fall on their own soldiers. WHILE the ODA guys were fully engaged. Do you realise how much math that is - Caluclating Speed / Height of various Aircraft, Keeping a Track of what munitions they are carrying, Keeping track of their Fuel so that no AC has to return without emptying his load, etc etc

The Other JTAC was using his SIGINT Gear to determine where in the city the HVTs where located. try to determine from enemy transmissions where civilians were located and bring in airpower accordingly to be effective all while trying to layer a GPS Grid on maps that had never been documented by their intel before.

The Airpower in support included Predator Drones, Apaches, C-130s Specters, F15s, F16s AWACs, RAF Tornados. -

Can you imagine the level of skill required to coordinate all of that being on the ground with a couple of radios and GPS behind a SandDune?

That alone requires an insane amount of knowledge of technology and knowledge of capability of their own AF. which no Army guy is EVER going to have.


And last but not the Least the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment is the cutting edge of Special Operations Capability and has nothing to do with shooters or boots on the ground.

While this might be true in the case of American or other NATO special forces. I seriously doubt that our guards actually have this sort of capability. Calling in airstrikes painting targets etc they simply don't have the equipment for that. Of all the rfi that are there is barely any for command and control elements and other such gear etc. I mean even during photo ops you never see them with that kind of stuff and i am fairly sure its not in the classified territory because if we had that MOD would surely give a glimpse. Guards if you look from 2012 to now have pretty much stagnated with minor updates. Only NSG has constantly evolved and it shows.

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

Indian Navy Marine Commandos in action

 

[rkhanna]

While this might be true in the case of American or other NATO special forces. I seriously doubt that our guards actually have this sort of capability. Calling in airstrikes painting targets etc they simply don't have the equipment for that. Of all the rfi that are there is barely any for command and control elements and other such gear etc. I mean even during photo ops you never see them with that kind of stuff and i am fairly sure its not in the classified territory because if we had that MOD would surely give a glimpse. Guards if you look from 2012 to now have pretty much stagnated with minor updates. Only NSG has constantly evolved and it shows.

That why my disclaimer above - that i am not talking about Garud but AF SOF in general.

our SOFs across the spectrum have lost the edge they used to hold in SOF warfare in the 80s/90s because they have simply failed to evolve with the times. NSG was forced too the hard way.

 

[Chinmoy]

No gloves pathetic helmet no protection for eyes. Old age bullet proof jacket.
I always said gear for photo ops is different and gear on ground is different.

IA - you have tavor gun now you are special forces. If these guy's are with AK-47 i cannot even make difference between them and infantry

Its not the head gear, comm set or the gun which makes a force special. Its the training which differentiate one from other.

In deployment state a SF guy would make use of any weapon available to him. Tavor has been provided for special purpose like room to room interdiction. It has nothing to do with being a part of special force. NSG is equipped with MP9 variant for the same purpose as to why SF guys are equipped with Tavors. Its just the nature of operation which would dictate the equipment a operator would carry.

 

[Knowitall]

Gear, communications set and a better gun do make sf special. Sf around the world simply don't spend millions to look cool if they felt that training alone would do the job for them. There is a reason why sf constantly evolves around the globe. Training can only take you so far you cannot hope to fight at darkness without nvg hoping your training works. You cannot except you wont have any causality when you a breach a door and don't know what inside thats what they use mini drones for. You might feel headset is something not needed but ask the sf guy who has to face the loud bangs of an ak rifle and would wish for noise cancellation. Having real time data which shows where you and your teammates are sights lasers to paint the targets etc is something not done to look cool it's something done to make sure lives are saved and unnecessary casualties don't occur. The talk about deployment state dosent make sense as any properly funded sf unit will have gear and equipment ready on the go etc. How can training compensate for the fact that we don't have medical operators embedded in our units and no proper medical gear at all. The only hope you have after getting shot is to wait for the chopper and most of the time your fate is sealed. proper medical gear and not your patti bandho or bhejo can save a lot of lives.how can you compensate the lack of a proper sniper duo of spotter and shooter who can provide recce and play a major role in the success of any operation or the fact that silencers do help you keep the element of surprise rather than go guns blazing. You see training can only take you so far flashbangs drones etc ask an operator he will tell you how important such things are.

 

[armyofhind]

Below is a link to a Reality TV show produced by SOFREP. It has a bunch of ex SOF operators learning and competing against each other

https://sofrep.com/videos/category/training-cell

If anybody is interested they should watch / download torrents

cant find the torrent anywhere. Any links?

 

[ALBY]

Miscellaneous

It’s funny isn’t it, the contempt and venom the military leadership and those retired from it have for the IPS but this IPS run organisation has utterly humiliated them in terms of their transformation and capability upgrade and this isn’t a isolated case- most units under MHA have more modern small arms than those under MOD.

I guess military folks want to demean IPS because if IPS performs it will only further highlight what frauds Indian military leadership is and the jolly ride they’ve been taking the Indian public on all these years- 100s of billions thrown at them for very very mediocre returns. Where did all the money go I wonder becuase we know how adverse they are to Indian products.

Careful bro, u are putting allegations over military. Dont u know our military is stagnant only because of Babus in MoD, jealous Ips/IaS lobby and lastly Nehrus. We gets faulty equipment from Ofb only because of the left wing unions and not because of the obsolete parameters demanded by tge decision makers.
Corruption percentage in military is less than the amount of bacteria remaining in toilet cleaned by harpic

 

[Chinmoy]

Gear, communications set and a better gun do make sf special. Sf around the world simply don't spend millions to look cool if they felt that training alone would do the job for them. There is a reason why sf constantly evolves around the globe. Training can only take you so far you cannot hope to fight at darkness without nvg hoping your training works. You cannot except you wont have any causality when you a breach a door and don't know what inside thats what they use mini drones for. You might feel headset is something not needed but ask the sf guy who has to face the loud bangs of an ak rifle and would wish for noise cancellation. Having real time data which shows where you and your teammates are sights lasers to paint the targets etc is something not done to look cool it's something done to make sure lives are saved and unnecessary casualties don't occur. The talk about deployment state dosent make sense as any properly funded sf unit will have gear and equipment ready on the go etc. How can training compensate for the fact that we don't have medical operators embedded in our units and no proper medical gear at all. The only hope you have after getting shot is to wait for the chopper and most of the time your fate is sealed. proper medical gear and not your patti bandho or bhejo can save a lot of lives.how can you compensate the lack of a proper sniper duo of spotter and shooter who can provide recce and play a major role in the success of any operation or the fact that silencers do help you keep the element of surprise rather than go guns blazing. You see training can only take you so far flashbangs drones etc ask an operator he will tell you how important such things are.

I'd take that we have written it in response to what I have written.

Nowhere I have said that SF guys don't need special tac equipment. But nowhere it is a written rule that they would be loaded with those for each and every ops. As I mentioned earlier, any equipment or even weapon a operator would carry would depend on the particular nature of operation. Now you can't expect one to carry a Laser designator to COIN or CASO op in valley. Even if he carries, what good it would be other then weight increment. He is not going to call in Air cavalry to take down a house. None of the SF team which goes on a night ops goes sans a NVG. But expecting them to wear one even at the afternoon sun in insane IMO.

As far as medical corp unit attached with any operational unit is concerned, I don't know where you got the idea that they go on without the bare minimum requirement. If you expect them to carry around or move around with a field hospital to carry out onsite surgery for grave injuries, well its not going to happen anyway. During ops they act more like paramedics rather then doctors or surgeons. So they only carries whatever bare minimum is required at times like that.

Now regarding Head gear and BPJ and gloves and kneepad. Among all of these BPJ is a must have and we are seeing them coming now a days. As far as Helmet vs Patka is concerned, now a days we are seeing Helmets making presence felt in the field of Patka. More of it has to do with the initial training process rather then availability. I've first hand experience of knowing operators who prefer Patka over Helmets only because he is more comfortable in a Patka rather then Helmet. Providing Helmets directly to field operatives is not going to make any difference unless it is made mandatory at initial training level. Modern helmets are becoming a part of training only recently ans the result could be seen in the young bloods. As far as veterans are concerned, you would see them in a Patka more often then a Ballistic helmet. Same goes on with other gears.

2008. Place Vairengte. A US column was training with an Indian column in CIJW school. All of them were veterans on both the side. One stark difference between both the team were the gears. Indian team was devoid of all the fancy head gear, comm set, gloves, kneepads, mask that the US team was sporting. But nowhere the team was lagging behind their US counterpart in operation aspect during the exercise. I was lucky enough to share mess space with few of the participants from our side & when I brought up the topic on gears, the unanimous reply was that they are not comfortable in those as they have not been trained in those gears. Its not like interaction never happens in between two teams and sharing of these gears had not taken place. But Indian counterparts were not comfortable while operating wearing those. So its a matter of how and with what you train which dictates the later part of life.

 

[abingdonboy]

Yo what was GARUD even supposed to do?
Never heard of a air force special force before.

There’s a legitimate reason to have Garuds- CSAR, TAC etc but IAF has no clue about how to use them so they’ve become mostly a QRT for strategic vases and it seems to me they themselves barely understand what they should be doing beyond posing for cameras.

 

[abingdonboy]

Careful bro, u are putting allegations over military. Dont u know our military is stagnant only because of Babus in MoD, jealous Ips/IaS lobby and lastly Nehrus. We gets faulty equipment from Ofb only because of the left wing unions and not because of the obsolete parameters demanded by tge decision makers.
Corruption percentage in military is less than the amount of bacteria remaining in toilet cleaned by harpic

I remember when I used to believe just these well crafted and well spread narratives! There’s some truth to them but nowhere near as prevalent as they would want you to believe and the more you look the more fingers need to be pointed at the services.

it isn’t MOD that is drafting ridiculous QRs, rigging the game and then going on absurd circuses around the world. It isn’t IPS that is returning billions in unspent CAPEX to FM.

but of course in India the services can never be challenged, their intentions are always pure.

 

[abingdonboy]

I'd take that we have written it in response to what I have written.

Nowhere I have said that SF guys don't need special tac equipment. But nowhere it is a written rule that they would be loaded with those for each and every ops. As I mentioned earlier, any equipment or even weapon a operator would carry would depend on the particular nature of operation. Now you can't expect one to carry a Laser designator to COIN or CASO op in valley. Even if he carries, what good it would be other then weight increment. He is not going to call in Air cavalry to take down a house. None of the SF team which goes on a night ops goes sans a NVG. But expecting them to wear one even at the afternoon sun in insane IMO.

As far as medical corp unit attached with any operational unit is concerned, I don't know where you got the idea that they go on without the bare minimum requirement. If you expect them to carry around or move around with a field hospital to carry out onsite surgery for grave injuries, well its not going to happen anyway. During ops they act more like paramedics rather then doctors or surgeons. So they only carries whatever bare minimum is required at times like that.

Now regarding Head gear and BPJ and gloves and kneepad. Among all of these BPJ is a must have and we are seeing them coming now a days. As far as Helmet vs Patka is concerned, now a days we are seeing Helmets making presence felt in the field of Patka. More of it has to do with the initial training process rather then availability. I've first hand experience of knowing operators who prefer Patka over Helmets only because he is more comfortable in a Patka rather then Helmet. Providing Helmets directly to field operatives is not going to make any difference unless it is made mandatory at initial training level. Modern helmets are becoming a part of training only recently ans the result could be seen in the young bloods. As far as veterans are concerned, you would see them in a Patka more often then a Ballistic helmet. Same goes on with other gears.

2008. Place Vairengte. A US column was training with an Indian column in CIJW school. All of them were veterans on both the side. One stark difference between both the team were the gears. Indian team was devoid of all the fancy head gear, comm set, gloves, kneepads, mask that the US team was sporting. But nowhere the team was lagging behind their US counterpart in operation aspect during the exercise. I was lucky enough to share mess space with few of the participants from our side & when I brought up the topic on gears, the unanimous reply was that they are not comfortable in those as they have not been trained in those gears. Its not like interaction never happens in between two teams and sharing of these gears had not taken place. But Indian counterparts were not comfortable while operating wearing those. So its a matter of how and with what you train which dictates the later part of life.

I’ve heard this before and I didn’t buy it then and I don’t buy it now.

you think western forces spend billions to make their soldiers less effective? Average Australian soldier has $27,000 worth of equipment issued to them. This makes the soldier more lethal, more survivable and more competent. they are force multipliers.

In India soldier gets issued a rifle and helmet just like 100 years ago. PLA have even realised the futility in this approach and are cutting their manpower by 30-40% so they can spend more on each individual soldier and CAPEX and they have a defence budget 3-4X India’s!


In this day and age people still making a case against mechanisation and automation?

you constantly are hearing in JK/NE about ops being called off because it’s getting dark, have heard of terrorists escaping cordons becuase of a lack of communication and command and control awareness. You’re telling me Indian forces aren’t compromised by their lack of equipment at all? I’d say you’re naive if you actually believe that.

 

[rkhanna]

cant find the torrent anywhere. Any links?

If I find will pass it on ......

 

[apoorv465]

Gear, communications set and a better gun do make sf special. Sf around the world simply don't spend millions to look cool if they felt that training alone would do the job for them. There is a reason why sf constantly evolves around the globe. Training can only take you so far you cannot hope to fight at darkness without nvg hoping your training works. You cannot except you wont have any causality when you a breach a door and don't know what inside thats what they use mini drones for. You might feel headset is something not needed but ask the sf guy who has to face the loud bangs of an ak rifle and would wish for noise cancellation. Having real time data which shows where you and your teammates are sights lasers to paint the targets etc is something not done to look cool it's something done to make sure lives are saved and unnecessary casualties don't occur. The talk about deployment state dosent make sense as any properly funded sf unit will have gear and equipment ready on the go etc. How can training compensate for the fact that we don't have medical operators embedded in our units and no proper medical gear at all. The only hope you have after getting shot is to wait for the chopper and most of the time your fate is sealed. proper medical gear and not your patti bandho or bhejo can save a lot of lives.how can you compensate the lack of a proper sniper duo of spotter and shooter who can provide recce and play a major role in the success of any operation or the fact that silencers do help you keep the element of surprise rather than go guns blazing. You see training can only take you so far flashbangs drones etc ask an operator he will tell you how important such things are.

Plus it's not just about the equipment but also about the support they get, like JSOC has 170 SOAR for transport and Pararescuemen for medical support, ISA and Regimental Reconnaissance Company for special reconnaissance. SAS has
Special Reconnaissance Regiment. Our SOF also also needs this types of SMU's for support for ops.