Indian Special Forces (archived)

[MuzzleVelocity]

Why? You have a whole bunch of posters here who post outstanding pictures and updates on the SOF from equipment to missions etc and you have a bunch of posters who point out the absurd and the ridiculous. isnt that what a forum and an accumulation of information should entail?

The real picture is always in the middle and its better to have a more vibrant discussion than a PakDef type retarded worship culture.

That's what I meant by constructive criticism and persistent negativity. You are enforcing my point. No one is asking anyone to worship Indian SOF or anything of that sort.

 

[rkhanna]

That's what I meant by constructive criticism and persistent negativity. You are enforcing my point. No one is asking anyone to worship Indian SOF or anything of that sort.

My point is it's okay. If persistent critisism is valid then so be it. The universe will balance itself no ?

 

[binayak95]

The problem with our SF that I can see is that we still clearly delineate between IA/IAF/IN controlled units and clandestine units under RAW.

S0, while Para SF, Garuds and Marcos are doing COIN/CT in J&K, the military sees that as only an experience gaining deployment and not as their primary role, that remains relegated to war time operations. Hunting down enemy TELs, sabotaging enemy units and logistics, naval asymmetric warfare, air liaisoning, etc.

That distinction in the mind of the top brass is perhaps faulty - and perhaps the upcoming SOD will rectify some of the more worrying trends.

That being said, our clandestine units are virtually unknown in the public eye - a good and encouraging sign, that some red lines are still being maintained.

 

[Immanuel]

Folks I have no problems as said calling for more new age equipment, that is not the case. But, to compare the Somali SF to our SF is just asking for it.

While I wholeheartedly agree that almost every piece of item on SF needs an upgrade. To equalize equipment level to operational abilities is silly.

The primary weapon in the SF is always the soldier, while equipment can always give an advantage. It's the soldier that needs to pass through years of missions, hurdles and never ending cycle of training. Most Indian SF are very very good at adapting to all kinds of situations and their training is on par with the Tier-1 units. What we hear on day-to day basis is only 10% of what they do. I don't see any other SF units playing chicken in the enemy's back yard especially one that keeps talking cock & bull about Newclear hot fart. People forget these are men who don't make excuses for failure, they are trained killers and will get the job done be it via a clean slit to throat of those who behead our men or pour down right hellfire from all directions after having trekked several miles of high altitude forests to hit well guarded launching pads. Most western SFs get into air taxis or vehicles, how good are they when they need to infiltrate mine infested areas, surrounded by well armed and dug in border outposts that can lay down HMG fire, mortars. They also carry a shit ton of ammo, supplies, heck even stretchers on foot in forests so quiet and dark at night even the faintest rustle on the ground can travel a 100m. Combine the snow in winters, ambient light from the moon, even the darkest night can be very bright so to speak.

From operations we know they use drones, IR devices, sophisticated navigation aids (including the humble compass) 2-3rd gen NVG, decent combat proven sights, wall penetrating radars, corner shots, decent rifles etc. They have done so while pursuing militants across into Myanmar in a 24 hr over 50km trek via deep thick jungle (where the forest is so thick, GPS signals can't penetrate). They have done so during Pathankot, a wide gamut of tech and equipment was put to good use during the surgical strikes. They did so while managing to put on a vast deception in a place which is littered with enemy eyes and counter intel. At the moment, our SF have the similar equipment level as Israeli SF, which are among the finest.

Come back when there are SF with such balls elsewhere. There are few good out there but they remain few.

Heck even our Ghataks can run circle around most SF units around the world in most terrains. If one golden balls Yogender Singh Yadav can scale a 1000 ft 90-95 degree incline with nothing but his rifle and his balls. He get's up there kills several uniformed pigs with bare hands, liberates several bunkers from their occupiers all while he had been shot 17 times.

Equipment, rifles, grenades, drones, sights, NVGs are all tools. The real and only multi tool will and should always be the man and these items are just an extension of him.

We in India have different realities and our Sf are already well geared for any action in Asia. With time, they will only get better since equipment is fast being improved.

Chill with the comparisons, give thanks to God that we for now have a better Govt. to serve such interests. Also comparing with other noob forces is silly, also not everyone is running around with 4-tube NVGs, only DEVGRU, DELTA, STS have access to them. Also appreciate the road to change, people are so childish. It's the journey to the destination that can be fun and exiting. While many see the slowness of having a JSOC style command for SF in India, I actually know for a fact that whatever is happening now is a result of years and years of careful deliberation, war gaming and discussion between the services to changing nature of conflict.

People who keep labeling our SF among the worst are only making giant fools of themselves. they also sound far too naPaki. Let's see how many of those SF units would keep their fancy helmets, heavy plate carriers on while on 24hr deadline where they need to trek over 50km in areas infested with land mines, spies, mosquito infested thick jungle, over 30 degrees in temp plus 96% humidity. Then go in on direct full frontal assault killing over a 100, killing another dozen re-enforcement trying to flank them in quick shots. These guys make most of the SF units look like pansies honestly. While I don't underestimate any force out there, I am fully confident in ours. We should be thankful that we continue to find soldiers worthy of that history and legacy. We should indeed provide them with all the gear they need, quicker the better.

There are many awesome posts in this thread and very well written and I commend folks like rkhanna, Sayare, Bhadra, Gessler, Aditya and others for lovely reads. Gents, keep it up.

 

[Gessler]

Rare pic of a Heckler & Koch MR556 rifle (civilian version of HK416) in use by an FSB Alpha unit:

These were probably imported by a civilian/sports rifle dealer before the bans on Russia (if not outright smuggled).

Not sure if they may have converted the lower to a full-auto capable setup or not. The MR556/HK416 is designed to accept any AR-15 lower/uppers so its possible.

Also note the assortment of American attachments: EOTech holo/magnifier combo, PEQ LAM, Magpul stock, etc. The American peripheral equipment is a common sight even on AKs and other Eastern bloc weapons used by Russian special forces, as seen here:

 

[Yodha]

Sir, we are missing something some where - the basic role of Infantry is to close in with enemy and destroy him by relentless close combat (that is what Infantry attack is all about) and that does involve clearing trench after trench, bunker after bunker and house after house . Attack - every one attacks - even artillery guns attack and so do tanks.
I agree though that US and many Westerner are actually bad at it.
.


No ... it is below the dignity of SF to say anything about Infantry soldiers. That is the "satya vachan"..

Nobody is punching below the belt here. Atleast not me.

It feels weird when we compare our commando course with ranger/SERE course. Both are light years apart in course framework, teachings and in fitness aspects. Our commando course is only a basic introduction to the various facets that are needed to be encountered in operations by a inf ghataks platoon. The course offers bare minimum value in survival, navigation, evasive and camouflage & concealment tactics. It's more in to breaking a soldiers psyche, his biological setup and mental endurance. Don't think that anyone who completes the course will start doing strikes in and out.

Corps battle schools offer good value vis-a-vis shooting drills, operational tactics.

LICO has better teachings when it comes to COIN ops.

@abingdonboy @rkhanna @Immanuel @armyofhind

 

[binayak95]

Rare pic of a Heckler & Koch MR556 rifle (civilian version of HK416) in use by an FSB Alpha unit:

These were probably imported by a civilian/sports rifle dealer before the bans on Russia (if not outright smuggled).

Not sure if they may have converted the lower to a full-auto capable setup or not. The MR556/HK416 is designed to accept any AR-15 lower/uppers so its possible.

Also note the assortment of American attachments: EOTech holo/magnifier combo, PEQ LAM, Magpul stock, etc. The American peripheral equipment is a common sight even on AKs and other Eastern bloc weapons used by Russian special forces, as seen here:

There is this video on Youtube of Larry Vickers with FSB guys. Very American is the first thing that pops into your head.

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

#IndianNavy #MARCOS & #Divers during recent exercise at an unknown location

 

[Bhadra]

Nobody is punching below the belt here. Atleast not me.

It feels weird when we compare our commando course with ranger/SERE course. Both are light years apart in course framework, teachings and in fitness aspects. Our commando course is only a basic introduction to the various facets that are needed to be encountered in operations by a inf ghataks platoon. The course offers bare minimum value in survival, navigation, evasive and camouflage & concealment tactics. It's more in to breaking a soldiers psyche, his biological setup and mental endurance. Don't think that anyone who completes the course will start doing strikes in and out.

Corps battle schools offer good value vis-a-vis shooting drills, operational tactics.

LICO has better teachings when it comes to COIN ops.

@abingdonboy @rkhanna @Immanuel @armyofhind

We are missing Macros in favour of Micros.

Firstly, Commando training was always there since long much before the Ghataks came into existence. Khanna said correctly that the aim of that course is to develop Junior Leadership skills, confidence and certain minor techniques / skills considered useful for Infantry tasks - Junior Leadership.

I have been emphasising time and again that Ghatak's should be proficient in carrying out tasks that fall within the ambit of Infantry battalion operations and not typical SF operations. They are not there for hostage rescue, storming a hijacked aircraft, rescue operation Ivan Crasto style, deep water sabotage, carrying out free fall ops or microlight operation. No one should task them to destroy a TEL, radar setups or stroam an airfield and destroy aircrafts or kill a political bigwig somewhere.

They can be trained and expected to do rope fixing for a cliff assault by a company of Infantry, be good snipers, be good in desert, jungle and mountain survival, avalanche rescue, crevasse rescue, dealing with high altitude situations and emergencies, river and canal crossing and rope fixing, bunker bursting, FIBUA, deal with explosives, IEDs and mines, communications, sensors, navigation including GPS, map reading and elementary satellite imagery interpretation, etc etc. They should be able to clear a nest inside a minefield, know road denial, obstacle making and obstacle fixing, limited helicopter operations etc etc in furtherance and as part of Infantry battalion operations.

It would be rare, out of place and unrealistic to task them and performs roles that do not fall within the realm of "Infantry Battalion"... not detached tasks. For example they can be tasked to go to enemy posts across and bring back some heads but it would be unrealistic to task them to infiltrate To Chakoti and carry out a two days operation.

Good mental makeup, battle craft, good field craft, very good firing standards and motivation is what makes any one 2/3 SF compliant material. Or fit to be trained further. Rest all are skills and bunkum. Those fancy jigs etc are function of money - throw the money and get it. Most of the time it is feel good and feel very different.

Coming back to Ghatak's - my worry was that individual soldiers Ghatak can be trained by various training institution but who and how to train a subunit ? After all that unit has to function as a combined and composite whole . Who trains them as a subunit. Our training institutions do take subunits.

Active formations and battalions do not have time and others have no wherewithal to do that.

Making a good Ghatak could be a good material for induction into SF - that lessons some problem.

 

[Jay99]

The main officer who planned the surgical strike but never took any credit ...the real hero who needs to be acknowledged

http://www.indianpolitics.co.in/the...-the-border-lt-general-paramjit-singh-sangha/

 

[rkhanna]

Folks I have no problems as said calling for more new age equipment, that is not the case. But, to compare the Somali SF to our SF is just asking for it.

Everything you said in your post is valid. Just want to comment on the above part NOBODY compared Indian SOF to Somali SOF. But Indian kit WAS compared to Somali SOF.

The East African Countries have united against Al Shabab on a strategic level and have taken action in a cohesive manner (with American help/proding ofcourse) to tackle the issue. Billions of Dollars from Mog and the Ports of Somalia are to be made by ALL if stability is achieved.

In India (specially with SOF) we lack such cohesive thought at a StratCom level. SOF tend to go from one reactionary op to another or pursue tactical objectives to maintain Status Quo on the border. In the late 90s and early 00s we infact pursued broader security mandates via SOF which then reduced greatly post 9/11 and now is gradually finding its way back with the NSA and CS.

That being said - gone are the days where the Soldier maketh the Man - and equipment was secondary. In today combined Arms / Data Fusion senario SOF units have evolved and training and equipment go hand in hand. the Sheer Scale of the Mil-Ind complex that works along side JSOC and UKSFHQ is phenomenal. Their Training is now driven by tech. Where effeciency is found lacking SOF personal (via the CAG) go back to tech companies and help design equipment to make their training more efficient. Every single piece of "gucci" kit serves a very specific and critical purpose.

In India we believe that equipment is an add on to the soldier. In the West the Equipment is Part of the Soldier that is a weapon system.

 

[rkhanna]

It feels weird when we compare our commando course with ranger/SERE course

Just to point out - Ranger Course and the 75th Ranger Regiment Selection and Training are two seperate things. The Ranger course is alot like our Commando Course.

Ranger Course is a 61 week Leadership course - Candidates who pass this are NOT US Army Rangers. Officer and NCO cadre across the Spectrum of the US Miliary (Army, AF, Navy) can volunteer to join this course and then revert back to their units post completion.

The Ranger School is NOT organizationally affliated with the 75th Ranger Regiment.

Selection and Training for the 75th Ranger Regiment leads to you be badged as US Army Rangers. Though on passing ranger school you get the Ranger Tab. This Ranger tab is DIFFERENT from insignia of the 75th Ranger Regiment.

I was saying that Ranger School is like our Junior Leaders Commando School in Belguam. They both serve the same purpose. Both Schools have no affliation to any Specific Unit.

That being said the Ranger School has also evolved over the decades and serves the operational (expedientiary) nature of US Military Operations. The Indian school serves India's needs so their regimes are different but the aim is the same.

SERE is a whole different thing and serves a completely different purpose across the spectrum of military units.

 

[rkhanna]

I have been emphasising time and again that Ghatak's should be proficient in carrying out tasks that fall within the ambit of Infantry battalion operations and not typical SF operations. They are not there for hostage rescue, storming a hijacked aircraft, rescue operation Ivan Crasto style, deep water sabotage, carrying out free fall ops or microlight operation. No one should task them to destroy a TEL, radar setups or stroam an airfield and destroy aircrafts or kill a political bigwig somewhere.

100% Agree. But keeping in mind that the future of Warfare specially with our Western Neighbour should give these ghataks even an abinitio capability in MOUT operations which will include basic skills of asymetrical warfare including Hostage interdictions.

Their Primarily Role should continue to be Long Range Recon Patrols, Sniper/Scout Duties, Forward Observers for Artillery. Their missions have to align in aiding the furthering of objectives of their Infantry battalion/ regiment in a purely tactical sense.

 

[rkhanna]

The main officer who planned the surgical strike but never took any credit ...the real hero who needs to be acknowledged

http://www.indianpolitics.co.in/the...-the-border-lt-general-paramjit-singh-sangha/

Very interesting thanks. Highlights 2 important points

1. The Need and usefulness of promoting SF officers up the ranks bring added flexibility of thinking at the HQ level.
2. Lack of an SOF command means that a Conventional Army CoS did the primary planning - While it worked here - will definetly show constraints in the long run.

 

[Bhadra]

100% Agree. But keeping in mind that the future of Warfare specially with our Western Neighbour should give these ghataks even an abinitio capability in MOUT operations which will include basic skills of asymetrical warfare including Hostage interdictions.

Their Primarily Role should continue to be Long Range Recon Patrols, Sniper/Scout Duties, Forward Observers for Artillery. Their missions have to align in aiding the furthering of objectives of their Infantry battalion/ regiment in a purely tactical sense.

MOUT - yes, yes, very much. Operational environment exist on western border right from the word go. Small town around the border to midsize town as little as 10 km from border.

Thanks Rkhanna.

Not only Ghatak but Infantry battalions need to be trained in MOUT.

The worrying thing for Indian Army is not urban cluster across western borders but MOUT as internal security operations. For Western borders, Indian Army has a doctrinal way of dealing with urban clusters - a la Bangladesh 1971. Bypass and overcome by manoeuvre but still some portion of it might have to deal with it - However, Infantry will remain Infantry without any alternative.

What is more worrying for future scenarios is "Urban Insurgency" inside India. We can not forget Punjab experiences. Look at Arvind Kejriwal in Delhi, Mamata Banerjee in West Bengal needing a Bangladeshi artist to canvass for her, rising Mokokchung, Dibrugarh, Bhilai or Trivandrum. Urban Naxalism as also Urban Jihadi ghettos a la Mujjarfarnagar is what is scaring the security agencies in India - specially the police forces and their agencies. But when the going gets tough in India - the Infantry gets going.

Stalingrad type of FIBUA will not be enough in dealing with Urban Naxals.Indian Army does need a well thought doctrine for it. We definitely need full fledged training schools for MOUT. If terrain is mother of all military operations then our urban areas is our new terrain. Internal security threats emanating from those is future of our operations.

 

[rkhanna]

MOUT - yes, yes, very much. Operational environment exist on western border right from the word go. Small town around the border to midsize town as little as 10 km from border.

Thanks Rkhanna.

Not only Ghatak but Infantry battalions need to be trained in MOUT.

The worrying thing for Indian Army is not urban cluster across western borders but MOUT as internal security operations. For Western borders, Indian Army has a doctrinal way of dealing with urban clusters - a la Bangladesh 1971. Bypass and overcome by manoeuvre but still some portion of it might have to deal with it - However, Infantry will remain Infantry without any alternative.

What is more worrying for future scenarios is "Urban Insurgency" inside India. We can not forget Punjab experiences. Look at Arvind Kejriwal in Delhi, Mamata Banerjee in West Bengal needing a Bangladeshi artist to canvass for her, rising Mokokchung, Dibrugarh, Bhilai or Trivandrum. Urban Naxalism as also Urban Jihadi ghettos a la Mujjarfarnagar is what is scaring the security agencies in India - specially the police forces and their agencies. But when the going gets tough in India - the Infantry gets going.

Stalingrad type of FIBUA will not be enough in dealing with Urban Naxals.Indian Army does need a well thought doctrine for it. We definitely need full fledged training schools for MOUT. If terrain is mother of all military operations then our urban areas is our new terrain. Internal security threats emanating from those is future of our operations.

100% Agree. But do note that MOUT has 2 levels of escalation. COIN (within Indian Borders) will be of lower intensity as its easier to manage and control OPFOR logistics from our end. Just look at how we do CASO in JK today. Its at our leisure and with overwhelming force superiority.

MOUT in denied territory will be a different beast where combined arms proffeciency will be of great importance. And also Schools like the Junior Leaders Commando School will be of priceless value in conditioning junior line commanders

MOUT (non indian territory) will be against a highly trained / highly equipped OPFOR - in high density areas with high concentrations of RPGS and heavy Small Arms - Basics of Fire, maneuver and Communicate will go through a paradigm shift. Infantry Support arms will go through a paradigm shift. Just look at How quickly the Americans Evolved Their Air, Infantry and SOF doctrine and equipment post their Iraq invasion. Bradleys and Strikers all got various upgrades, Apaches never ventured over city limits after the battle of Karbala and SOF elements operated ONLY at night using both Air and Ground Assets with LARGE Ranger/marine QRTs in tow for perimeter security. All while being quater backed by an infusion of ISR via Drones, AWACs and JStars. All this while Ground Pounders with small diameter ordanance was on stand by for CAS within City limits and with doctrines to minimize collatoral damage.

 

[Gessler]

Just to point out - Ranger Course and the 75th Ranger Regiment Selection and Training are two seperate things. The Ranger course is alot like our Commando Course.

Ranger Course is a 61 week Leadership course - Candidates who pass this are NOT US Army Rangers. Officer and NCO cadre across the Spectrum of the US Miliary (Army, AF, Navy) can volunteer to join this course and then revert back to their units post completion.

The Ranger School is NOT organizationally affliated with the 75th Ranger Regiment.

Selection and Training for the 75th Ranger Regiment leads to you be badged as US Army Rangers. Though on passing ranger school you get the Ranger Tab. This Ranger tab is DIFFERENT from insignia of the 75th Ranger Regiment.

I was saying that Ranger School is like our Junior Leaders Commando School in Belguam. They both serve the same purpose. Both Schools have no affliation to any Specific Unit.

That being said the Ranger School has also evolved over the decades and serves the operational (expedientiary) nature of US Military Operations. The Indian school serves India's needs so their regimes are different but the aim is the same.

SERE is a whole different thing and serves a completely different purpose across the spectrum of military units.

I believe the ex-Chief of Army Staff Gen. VK Singh was a Ranger school pass-out.

 

[rkhanna]

I believe the ex-Chief of Army Staff Gen. VK Singh was a Ranger school pass-out.

Correct. A number of Indian affsaars have gone through Ranger School - its been an ongoing tradition for long. Similarly US Military officers and senior NCOs come to our schools at HAWS and CIJW. These are not large scale unit exchanges but in ones and twos

 

[Bhadra]

Correct. A number of Indian affsaars have gone through Ranger School - its been an ongoing tradition for long. Similarly US Military officers and senior NCOs come to our schools at HAWS and CIJW. These are not large scale unit exchanges but in ones and twos

MOUT in our context is vastly different than US Forces MOUT.

Though the terrain may be urban but our aims, objectives, forces, their equipment and end state will be different. India unlike USA is unlikely to militarily intervene anywhere for its resources, regime change or occupation even if it is Pakistan. While attacking Pakistan I dot not visualise any one allowing Indian Forces doing Racca in Sukkur or bombing entire Bahawalpur to raise it to ground.

Unlike USA, our MOUT will be full fledged conventional military operations if against Pakistan, opposed by conventional Army rather than organised terrorists or militia like ISIS. Arms and equipment to be used will also continue to remain conventional rather than customised for MOUT like strykers of USA.

Entire Kashmir valley is urban. Even the outlying Gujjar villages are like urban terrain. However, we do not apply the kind of resources and force matrix in the valley which a US task force commander will be free to do in Fallujah. It is unimaginable.

We may never attack Jaffna, Trincomalee, Batticaloa or Colombo but we were made to deal with those once upon a time. Indian Army neither had guns not tanks, BMPs, Attack Heptrs or Air assets supporting their operations. Do you feel if the requirement arose again, Indian Army will be allowed to use those resources like USA.

We will not be allowed to destroy even one building in Male, Thimpu, Rakhine, Viratnagar in Nepal or Sylhet in Bangladesh if Indian Forces are employed to fulfil requirements of Indian national interests there.

So it is the PBI which has taken the burnt and shall continue to do that.

Therefore, Indian Forces need a separate doctrine for their MOUT. It needs considerable discussion, thoughts and evolution process. It would be interesting to watch what French would be doing to save French buildings in Paris.

It is going to be a headache.

 

[binayak95]

MOUT in our context is vastly different than US Forces MOUT.

Though the terrain may be urban but our aims, objectives, forces, their equipment and end state will be different. India unlike USA is unlikely to militarily intervene anywhere for its resources, regime change or occupation even if it is Pakistan. While attacking Pakistan I dot not visualise any one allowing Indian Forces doing Racca in Sukkur or bombing entire Bahawalpur to raise it to ground.

Unlike USA, our MOUT will be full fledged conventional military operations if against Pakistan, opposed by conventional Army rather than organised terrorists or militia like ISIS. Arms and equipment to be used will also continue to remain conventional rather than customised for MOUT like strykers of USA.

Entire Kashmir valley is urban. Even the outlying Gujjar villages are like urban terrain. However, we do not apply the kind of resources and force matrix in the valley which a US task force commander will be free to do in Fallujah. It is unimaginable.

We may never attack Jaffna, Trincomalee, Batticaloa or Colombo but we were made to deal with those once upon a time. Indian Army neither had guns not tanks, BMPs, Attack Heptrs or Air assets supporting their operations. Do you feel if the requirement arose again, Indian Army will be allowed to use those resources like USA.

We will not be allowed to destroy even one building in Male, Thimpu, Rakhine, Viratnagar in Nepal or Sylhet in Bangladesh if Indian Forces are employed to fulfil requirements of Indian national interests there.

So it is the PBI which has taken the burnt and shall continue to do that.

Therefore, Indian Forces need a separate doctrine for their MOUT. It needs considerable discussion, thoughts and evolution process. It would be interesting to watch what French would be doing to save French buildings in Paris.

It is going to be a headache.

To be honest, there was a time when IAF Canberras bombed Naga villages - a decision that I cannot understand, nor do I know anything substantial of the situation in the NE then.

Honestly, even now in Kashmir valley, I do not understand why armored vehicles are used more proactively. A CASO operation supported by armored vehicles and a mounted HMG ready to tear apart any opposition would put a quick stop to any opposition.. yet we persist with on foot patrols..