Indian Special Forces (archived)

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Bhadra

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Another Area of Training and Operation for PBI and Ghatak

http://idrw.org/category/india/


Army to deploy fleet of hovercraft along Pak border at Rann of Kutch



Army Chief General Bipin Rawat said on Monday that Army will deploy a fleet of hovercrafts at Rann of Kutch for guarding the international border with Pakistan. The Army Chief said that the “training” and “operation” of the hovercrafts would be done by the Army in coordination with the Coast Guard which have experience in operating it. “They are being based on the western coast in the Rann of Kutch,” said Rawat when asked about the deployment of hovercrafts. The Army Chief was talking to ANI here after inducting the Coast Guard ship “Veera” into the maritime force took after the security of the eastern coast. The India Coast Guard and the Army were cleared to buy around 12 hovercrafts for surveillance in marshy and marine areas in the Gujarat border. “The Indian Coast Guard has been carrying out its task in a very professional manner and they have been continuously upgrading their effort. Today I am very happy that Indian coast guard ship Veera has been commissioned and it will add to the coast guard strength and help them monitor the coastline of the country more effectively,” said General Rawat .

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Would be very useful in Andaman and Nicobar and Indian Amphibious forces.
 
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Bhadra

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To be honest, there was a time when IAF Canberras bombed Naga villages - a decision that I cannot understand, nor do I know anything substantial of the situation in the NE then.

Honestly, even now in Kashmir valley, I do not understand why armored vehicles are used more proactively. A CASO operation supported by armored vehicles and a mounted HMG ready to tear apart any opposition would put a quick stop to any opposition.. yet we persist with on foot patrols..
Why use a hammer to kill mosquitos?
Why militarise / criminalise the population to higher degree ? That adds to the difficulties of Security force.
Population / people are the Centre of Gravity in COIN operations. All security Forces are directed to win them to their sides - the same objective as that of the terrorists.

MPVs , Rakshaks etc are quite good and adequate.
 

Yodha

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Another Area of Training and Operation for PBI and Ghatak

http://idrw.org/category/india/


Army to deploy fleet of hovercraft along Pak border at Rann of Kutch



Army Chief General Bipin Rawat said on Monday that Army will deploy a fleet of hovercrafts at Rann of Kutch for guarding the international border with Pakistan. The Army Chief said that the “training” and “operation” of the hovercrafts would be done by the Army in coordination with the Coast Guard which have experience in operating it. “They are being based on the western coast in the Rann of Kutch,” said Rawat when asked about the deployment of hovercrafts. The Army Chief was talking to ANI here after inducting the Coast Guard ship “Veera” into the maritime force took after the security of the eastern coast. The India Coast Guard and the Army were cleared to buy around 12 hovercrafts for surveillance in marshy and marine areas in the Gujarat border. “The Indian Coast Guard has been carrying out its task in a very professional manner and they have been continuously upgrading their effort. Today I am very happy that Indian coast guard ship Veera has been commissioned and it will add to the coast guard strength and help them monitor the coastline of the country more effectively,” said General Rawat .

*************************************************

Would be very useful in Andaman and Nicobar and Indian Amphibious forces.
Would be very useful in A&N and in AA role, yes. But not for Ghataks. Sir, ghataks as a platoon has its operational role limited to very specific tasks. You'll never see a Ghatak platoon working in conjunction with the regular inf companies of the same battalion any combat. They have tasks assigned to them keeping in mind the overall situation of the battle. If it comes to LC scenario, they are limited to surveillance, raids and LRPs. I'm reiterating the same thing I said before, that ghataks are not SF and the strength of that platoon is very less, less than a regular inf platoons strength that's authorised. You cannot assign them every task that seems important to you.

Giving hovercrafts to ghataks is laughter material. If any units are made responsible to operate these hivercrafts, I'm definitely sure that dedicated platoons or companies will be raised or existing ones will be trained. Or else maybe a section of them will be assigned to jointly operate for gathering intelligence or recce.
 

Bhadra

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Griffon 8000TD
Reliable work horse
  • Specification
  • Length (m) hovering22.52
  • Beam (m) hovering11
  • Passengers (excl crew)42-56
  • Minimum crew2
  • Maximum payload (tonnes)8
  • Normal endurance (hours)10
  • Maximum Speed at full payload (knots)40
  • Engine type (Diesel)2 x IVECO
  • Hull MaterialMarine Grade Aluminium
With passenger capacity of 42 - 56, Payload 08 tonnes (-) 4 tonnes of passenger and a speed of 40 knots Indian Army seems to keen on capturing some post appraochable by sea.

Remember the boundary there is not settled....... disputed.
Would be very useful in A&N and in AA role, yes. But not for Ghataks. Sir, ghataks as a platoon has its operational role limited to very specific tasks. You'll never see a Ghatak platoon working in conjunction with the regular inf companies of the same battalion any combat. They have tasks assigned to them keeping in mind the overall situation of the battle. If it comes to LC scenario, they are limited to surveillance, raids and LRPs. I'm reiterating the same thing I said before, that ghataks are not SF and the strength of that platoon is very less, less than a regular inf platoons strength that's authorised. You cannot assign them every task that seems important to you.

Giving hovercrafts to ghataks is laughter material. If any units are made responsible to operate these hivercrafts, I'm definitely sure that dedicated platoons or companies will be raised or existing ones will be trained. Or else maybe a section of them will be assigned to jointly operate for gathering intelligence or recce.
yes, you have all the points as correct.
I am referring to a situation of a very restricted areas of Southern Gujrat border (bhats / runs/coastal areas) which remain under constant threat from Pakistani incursion. Here surveillance and patrolling is carried out by BSF by boats. Water runs very deep inside many areas during high tide. If BSF is required to be reinforced, it is better that Army has such kind of boats at their disposal.

Pakistan launched operation DWARKA during 1965 war. Any terrorist attacks on Narayan Sarovar, Dwarka or Somnath would be a big embarrassment to any govt in India.

I agree that for a discreet recce and surveillance these are large crafts. Still, something is better than nothing.
 

rkhanna

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MOUT in our context is vastly different than US Forces MOUT.

Though the terrain may be urban but our aims, objectives, forces, their equipment and end state will be different. India unlike USA is unlikely to militarily intervene anywhere for its resources, regime change or occupation even if it is Pakistan. While attacking Pakistan I dot not visualise any one allowing Indian Forces doing Racca in Sukkur or bombing entire Bahawalpur to raise it to ground.

Unlike USA, our MOUT will be full fledged conventional military operations if against Pakistan, opposed by conventional Army rather than organised terrorists or militia like ISIS. Arms and equipment to be used will also continue to remain conventional rather than customised for MOUT like strykers of USA.

Entire Kashmir valley is urban. Even the outlying Gujjar villages are like urban terrain. However, we do not apply the kind of resources and force matrix in the valley which a US task force commander will be free to do in Fallujah. It is unimaginable.

We may never attack Jaffna, Trincomalee, Batticaloa or Colombo but we were made to deal with those once upon a time. Indian Army neither had guns not tanks, BMPs, Attack Heptrs or Air assets supporting their operations. Do you feel if the requirement arose again, Indian Army will be allowed to use those resources like USA.

We will not be allowed to destroy even one building in Male, Thimpu, Rakhine, Viratnagar in Nepal or Sylhet in Bangladesh if Indian Forces are employed to fulfil requirements of Indian national interests there.

So it is the PBI which has taken the burnt and shall continue to do that.

Therefore, Indian Forces need a separate doctrine for their MOUT. It needs considerable discussion, thoughts and evolution process. It would be interesting to watch what French would be doing to save French buildings in Paris.

It is going to be a headache.
I would like to disagree. My Premise is the following:

The whole world has watched the battle space and battle tactics evolve in Iraq and Afghanistan, Syria, yemen. How a smaller , less technologically advanced force can hold off a larger opposition by negating a large chunk of technological advantage with House to House Fighting, Superior Small Unit skills and fighting within a Civilian population as cover.

it then becomes a battle of attrition - can the defending force hold off the Invading force till a) international community comes to their aid (diplomacy) b) bleed the enemy dry, in Human and Money costs

In 1971 Conventional Armies went to war with Conventional Mindsets - The Pak Army left their citiies to meet a rapidly advancing Indian Army. The Indian Army's objective was also not to hold territory but to do a quick regime change, dismantle military infrastructure and leave. This allowed them to leapfrog to take control of key nodal centers (logistics, Communications, Transportation) and ignore population centers

Senario 1: India initiates war with pakistan to find a permanent solution to current conflict - (within umbrella of tactical nukes in the mix)

Senario 2: Pakistan starts to fragment and out of self preservation we are forced to create a buffer between them and us to keep the chaos from spilling over and finding the quickest way of containing broken arrows.

in 20++ the Objectives the IA will have in the West will be different. While they will definitly take control of key nodal points they may also be forced to hold Population Centers. in pursuit of

1) NEST operations
2) HVT interdictions - Capture / Kills

The Pakistani Military Setup today INCLUDES Jihadi outfits in their official ORBAT and these militias are easily interchangeable with their other paramil units in terms of of their operational structure

The Pakistan's have a great deal of experience in asymetrical warefare and that is one area they can negate the technological Superiorty of the Indian Armed Forces. Confining The fight to urban centers negates the superiority in AirForce, Artillery and Tank Forces. They bring us down to their level for a bare knuckle brawl where nonuniformed forces , mingled with Uniformed Forces will be our OPFOR.

Leaving such units on our flanks unmolested will not be an option and the Army will be forced to prosecute such missions.

It will be tough brutal fighting and we could well see us evolve into such fighting.

Both Cases will require a sustained offensive MOUT capability with high degrees of fire superiority.

Given the nuclear threshold always hanging over the fight has to be brutal but SHORT.
 

Bhadra

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I would like to disagree. My Premise is the following:

The whole world has watched the battle space and battle tactics evolve in Iraq and Afghanistan, Syria, yemen. How a smaller , less technologically advanced force can hold off a larger opposition by negating a large chunk of technological advantage with House to House Fighting, Superior Small Unit skills and fighting within a Civilian population as cover.

it then becomes a battle of attrition - can the defending force hold off the Invading force till a) international community comes to their aid (diplomacy) b) bleed the enemy dry, in Human and Money costs

In 1971 Conventional Armies went to war with Conventional Mindsets - The Pak Army left their citiies to meet a rapidly advancing Indian Army. The Indian Army's objective was also not to hold territory but to do a quick regime change, dismantle military infrastructure and leave. This allowed them to leapfrog to take control of key nodal centers (logistics, Communications, Transportation) and ignore population centers

Senario 1: India initiates war with pakistan to find a permanent solution to current conflict - (within umbrella of tactical nukes in the mix)

Senario 2: Pakistan starts to fragment and out of self preservation we are forced to create a buffer between them and us to keep the chaos from spilling over and finding the quickest way of containing broken arrows.

in 20++ the Objectives the IA will have in the West will be different. While they will definitly take control of key nodal points they may also be forced to hold Population Centers. in pursuit of

1) NEST operations
2) HVT interdictions - Capture / Kills

The Pakistani Military Setup today INCLUDES Jihadi outfits in their official ORBAT and these militias are easily interchangeable with their other paramil units in terms of of their operational structure

The Pakistan's have a great deal of experience in asymetrical warefare and that is one area they can negate the technological Superiorty of the Indian Armed Forces. Confining The fight to urban centers negates the superiority in AirForce, Artillery and Tank Forces. They bring us down to their level for a bare knuckle brawl where nonuniformed forces , mingled with Uniformed Forces will be our OPFOR.

Leaving such units on our flanks unmolested will not be an option and the Army will be forced to prosecute such missions.

It will be tough brutal fighting and we could well see us evolve into such fighting.

Both Cases will require a sustained offensive MOUT capability with high degrees of fire superiority.

Given the nuclear threshold always hanging over the fight has to be brutal but SHORT.
Sir,

I have no difference with your thoughts on the issue of capabilities of small, irregulars and ill equipped forces to turn the towns and cities into hell. What I feel is the ability of our leadership and environment to accept the consequences of full fledged military force application against such malignancies. I still remember when we had to literally beg Srilankans to lend their mortar fire and carry out some bombing by their Cassenas in University area of Jaffna while extricating our SF team from there that was done at a very heavy cost. That will continue to remain so at least for internal security MOUTs.

Let us face the reality. US forces can do anything – there is very less human rights, media and political opposition, internal hue and cry situations for them to face. They will not have Maj Gogoi outcries, political opposition to score advantages and no ICJ trials. In our case, these factors will continue to inhibit application of full and entire spectrum of military force. If present and past elections are any lesson, politicians may also be ready to surrender military advantages for internal political gains even in Pakistan or Bangladesh, Srilanka or Maldives. When IPKF returned from Srilanka and landed at Madras port, Tamil politicians refused to meet them.

All said, our doctrine for MOUT during Internal Security Operations are bound to be very defensive, non – obtrusive, less public / publicity oriented and more man power intensive.

For our Western / Eastern areas military doctrines will continue to remain counter force doctrines focused on force destruction by manoeuvres and firepower rather than by counter value oriented operations under which cities are required to be captured for their value and population. One thing is sure – no one in India want that population, not even their destruction.

The US Army FM on MOUT says :

During offensive operations, commanders must seek to achieve a favorable mobility differential over the defender, to retain momentum, and to avoid a protracted and costly urban battle. Built-up areas are obstacles to maneuver; hence, isolation and bypass, which neutralize their value to the defender, are the goals of urban offensive operations.


I nevertheless would agree that due to sprawling towns, cities and villages especially in Punjab, MOUT cannot be avoided. Urban structures and population will have to be dealt with even while isolation and bypassing.

Another dominating factor would be opposition to conventional forces which will increase difficulties in MOUT but solve force application dilemma. However, as rightly pointed by you, Pakistan Army will integrate their hybrid forces and may be even allot them independent areas as they have been doing by using Rangers, Mujtahids, Scouts and other local militias. They are required to be treated as regulars. However that will mean dealing with entire civilian population.

Techniques and tactics of dealing with Urban terrain will have to learnt, all means of revolution in military technology will have to be adopted and learnt, it is only their application that would be judicious and limited in Internal Security application.

In nutshell, what I think is that we will be required to have different approach to deal with MOUT in internal and External environments.
 

rkhanna

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In nutshell, what I think is that we will be required to have different approach to deal with MOUT in internal and External environments.
Yes! Exactly my point. And we needed to start doing it yesterday.

Also because at our northern border situation could be reverse and we could end up fighting a rearguard action for the battle of tawang. Training helps us on both sides of the coin
 

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Shivansh Atri

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Hopefully exercises like these are used properly to study and overcome the gear differential with other SOFs.
Highcuts with added comms being the obvious ones. But also navigation and fire arms.
Exactly. I hope to see high-cuts with headsets and other advanced gear in the near future as soon as Special Operations Division starts operating. Otherwise what the fuck are we even doing?
 

rkhanna

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Exactly. I hope to see high-cuts with headsets and other advanced gear in the near future as soon as Special Operations Division starts operating. Otherwise what the fuck are we even doing?



Aaaaaanndd life comes full circle.

Okay - lets all take abreak from commenting on Gear for atleast 5 pages
 
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