Indian Special Forces (archived)

[Yodha]

Nigga please.

All this nigga does is talk shit, again I tell you half your shitty list can't survive a day in the kind of combat even our regular infantry can do. Get the fuck out of here with this bull shit.

Arm chair nigga talking shit. You worse than them Paki niggas in your drivel.

Pictures and videos don't mean shit nigga, battle honors and records do. All your bull shit is exactly opposite to the combat record.

Chal burbak

@abingdonboy Half of the U.S. gun enthusiasts won't survive a day sitting in a trench fighting a company of enemy soldiers with their slick gun moves. The Infantry as in their primary role, defends or attacks a posn. You don't go clearing a trench after trench using those slick moves. It's about the objective. And when it comes to hostage rescue and RI and COIN ops...we really have good drills that we adopted and developed upon. I agree that the equipment is a bit old but proficiency is absolute.

And let me tell you this, most of the things being discussed about the ghataks here are pure misconceptions.

 

[rkhanna]

Nigga please.

All this nigga does is talk shit, again I tell you half your shitty list can't survive a day in the kind of combat even our regular infantry can do. Get the fuck out of here with this bull shit.

Arm chair nigga talking shit. You worse than them Paki niggas in your drivel.

Pictures and videos don't mean shit nigga, battle honors and records do. All your bull shit is exactly opposite to the combat record.

Chal burbak

Sir you are missing the essense of this discussion and taking the discussion as a personal insult without getting into the context.

Are Indian Soldiers well drilled. Yes. Do Indian Soldiers have experience actually pulling a trigger . Hell Yes. Do we as a country have a monopoly on that.NO. Do we set the standard for military operations ? MAYBE.. is there scope for Improvement? ALWAYS.

That being Said. The NSG SOPs went through a drastic 180degree change post 26/11 via consultations with GSG-9 and the USSFGs. WHY? prior to 26/11 the NSG was the singularly MOST experienced CT/HRT unit on the planet doing ops across the spectrum of their tasking (including Anti Hijack) and had lost only 1 operator in an Op (in Gujrat in 2002) - infact it was NSG CQB that is taught to the SG and SF operators

THEY STILL HAD A GREAT DEAL TO LEARN post 26/11

Draw same parallels across the spectrum of units across the military. in the Recent Tri Services SOF ex - Garud were teaching everyone new things.

You still seem to think we are saying that our soldiers cant do X. Ofcourse they can. But look at the cost they take do it? Can they do it better, faster with lower casualties.

As an Example - I have seen Latest SF Vidoes on youtube where a number of times the soldier breaching the door will pass infront of the raised barrell of the soldier behind him?!!!

Lastly - SOF units all over the WORLD - YES INCLUDING JSOC hire shooting experts to show them new techniques - Everything from Stance to Sling. If JSOC finds it useful they incorporate them. That is the primary Function of the Combat Applications Group. The 3 point slings, the C Clamp Grip etc etc all grew from this trial and error method.

Alot of what we do in India - SOF and Infantry alike is still hangover from lessons learned from Sri Lanka. Point being Evolution has been SLOW - It is also SLOW because SOF gets treated as the bastard child for the Conventional Brass to win medals and then be forgotten about.

Lastly - If you go an ask any SOF soldier in India - do you want to learn new things. They will be there 1 hr early. The Clamour within Units to Cross train with the Americans and other SOF units is intense

@abingdonboy Half of the U.S. gun enthusiasts won't survive a day sitting in a trench fighting a company of enemy soldiers with their slick gun moves. The Infantry as in their primary role, defends or attacks a posn. You don't go clearing a trench after trench using those slick moves. It's about the objective. And when it comes to hostage rescue and RI and COIN ops...we really have good drills that we adopted and developed upon. I agree that the equipment is a bit old but proficiency is absolute.

And let me tell you this, most of the things being discussed about the ghataks here are pure misconceptions.

Why are you Comparing US Gun enthusiasts with the Indian Army in the entire spectrum of Infantry operations? You are entirely missing the point of the discussion by @abingdonboy

With regards to your comments on Ghataks - Please clarify which ones - most of the discussions on Ghataks on this thread are more or less on point.

 

[ALBY]

Sir you are missing the essense of this discussion and taking the discussion as a personal insult without getting into the context.

Are Indian Soldiers well drilled. Yes. Do Indian Soldiers have experience actually pulling a trigger . Hell Yes. Do we as a country have a monopoly on that.NO. Do we set the standard for military operations ? MAYBE.. is there scope for Improvement? ALWAYS.

That being Said. The NSG SOPs went through a drastic 180degree change post 26/11 via consultations with GSG-9 and the USSFGs. WHY? prior to 26/11 the NSG was the singularly MOST experienced CT/HRT unit on the planet doing ops across the spectrum of their tasking (including Anti Hijack) and had lost only 1 operator in an Op (in Gujrat in 2002) - infact it was NSG CQB that is taught to the SG and SF operators

THEY STILL HAD A GREAT DEAL TO LEARN post 26/11

Draw same parallels across the spectrum of units across the military. in the Recent Tri Services SOF ex - Garud were teaching everyone new things.

You still seem to think we are saying that our soldiers cant do X. Ofcourse they can. But look at the cost they take do it? Can they do it better, faster with lower casualties.

As an Example - I have seen Latest SF Vidoes on youtube where a number of times the soldier breaching the door will pass infront of the raised barrell of the soldier behind him?!!!

Lastly - SOF units all over the WORLD - YES INCLUDING JSOC hire shooting experts to show them new techniques - Everything from Stance to Sling. If JSOC finds it useful they incorporate them. That is the primary Function of the Combat Applications Group. The 3 point slings, the C Clamp Grip etc etc all grew from this trial and error method.

Alot of what we do in India - SOF and Infantry alike is still hangover from lessons learned from Sri Lanka. Point being Evolution has been SLOW - It is also SLOW because SOF gets treated as the bastard child for the Conventional Brass to win medals and then be forgotten about.

Lastly - If you go an ask any SOF soldier in India - do you want to learn new things. They will be there 1 hr early. The Clamour within Units to Cross train with the Americans and other SOF units is intense



Why are you Comparing US Gun enthusiasts with the Indian Army in the entire spectrum of Infantry operations? You are entirely missing the point of the discussion by @abingdonboy

With regards to your comments on Ghataks - Please clarify which ones - most of the discussions on Ghataks on this thread are more or less on point.

Why the fuck you are getting into this mess? Just enjoy the duel between abingdongboy and our RAW/former Para/S.G of what ever covert agent Immanuel sir, which haf been going on for quite some time.

 

[armyofhind]

I've been wanting to say this a long time but haven't said so.
It's kind of cute to watch people too dosed up on tacticool YouTube videos and computer games but zero operational experience or even handling a firearm to talk about how shitty our Special Forces are.

So cute. Feel like pulling their cheeks and ruffling up their hair kind of cute.

 

[rkhanna]

I've been wanting to say this a long time but haven't said so.
It's kind of cute to watch people too dosed up on tacticool YouTube videos and computer games but zero operational experience or even handling a firearm to talk about how shitty our Special Forces are.

So cute. Feel like pulling their cheeks and ruffling up their hair kind of cute.

Attack the idea and not the person. Otherwise you simply wasting bandwidth.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

lets just post pictures here and type jai ho.

 

[armyofhind]

Attack the idea and not the person. Otherwise you simply wasting bandwidth.

Bandwidth is wasted by those who think that whatever appears in the public domain media content of our SF is all that they do, or all that they have in terms of equipment.

I've countered the idea of bitching about our SF by placing foreign SFs on a pedestal and taking what or how they do things as the ideal far too many times.

It's the folly of those who fail to understand a simple concept as this. How do I care.
I enjoy watching such people live in their bubbles.

 

[rkhanna]

Bandwidth is wasted by those who think that whatever appears in the public domain media content of our SF is all that they do, or all that they have in terms of equipment.

I've countered the idea of bitching about our SF by placing foreign SFs on a pedestal and taking what or how they do things as the ideal far too many times.

It's the folly of those who fail to understand a simple concept as this. How do I care.
I enjoy watching such people live in their bubbles.

1. This is a forum expressly designed for debate on military matters by Civilian Enthusiasts
2. Enough members on this forum know more about SF due to family links etc than what is in the public domain
3. You countered nothing - you are simply belittling people rather than countering specific things you have read.
4. Our OWN SF often put foreign SOF on a pedestal for certain things . And alot of what is discussed here is openly discussed amoungst serving and SF veterans and i myself have been privy to some of this.
5. Alot of what is being discussed is precisely what the NSG did post 26/11.
6. You can enjoy watching bubbles from your own bubble all you want. BUT - again i am going to repeat it. If you arn't going comment / debate (civily) a members post then don't waste bandwidth.

 

[armyofhind]

This is a forum expressly designed for debate on military matters by Civilian Enthusiasts

Oh really. Sorry I didn't know that till you told me.

Enough members on this forum know more about SF due to family links etc than what is in the public domain

Yeah I would know. My cousin serves in SF.

You countered nothing - you are simply belittling people rather than countering specific things you have read

I countered many such posts in the past and that's what I wrote. Go back and read my previous posts, You'll find all the specifics you want. If you don't have that patience, don't make wayward comments about me in particular.

Our OWN SF often put foreign SOF on a pedestal for certain things

Sure. SF is a close knit community and they all learn from each other once inter country and inter military relations have been made.
The exchange is two way and not one, as some people here insinuate by calling NSG drills crap. This audacity is what I don't get. When one might have never even held a firearm in their life.

Alot of what is being discussed is precisely what the NSG did post 26/11

Like I said, I know. You don't have to keep repeating points. Makes them redundant.

You can enjoy watching bubbles from your own bubble all you want. BUT - again i am going to repeat it. If you arn't going comment / debate (civily) a members post then don't waste bandwidth

First of all, you are no one to tell me what to do, or what is a waste of bandwidth.
I didn't direct my post at anyone in particular and posted generally. You were the one to try and make it into a slugfest for whatever reason. Maybe you want to try and be a hero. I don't really care.

Secondly, debating in a civil manner and giving suggestions is one thing. Name calling and insinuating that what any of the Indian SF or special units do is bullshit or crap is entirely another, especially when the only authority one making such a comment has is access to the internet to watch tacticool stuff, most of which isn't applicable to real world ops anyway.

 

[Indrajit]

I Has gotten a few gentle slap on the wrist for being a bit too fortnight about Indian activities outside .....

If his story on Sudan is correct, it was a criminal act on the part of those responsible and the sad part is it probably refers to Gen V.K.Singh, the MoS.

No wonder they dont particularly like him telling this stuff.

 

[MuzzleVelocity]

I agree with @armyofhind. Constructive criticism is one thing. Persistent negativity is another thing altogether.

 

[rkhanna]

If his story on Sudan is correct, it was a criminal act on the part of those responsible and the sad part is it probably refers to Gen V.K.Singh, the MoS.

No wonder they dont particularly like him telling this stuff.

While noone I have asked about his stories has ever said they are false. Nobody has ever said they are true either. But i think he served prior to this administration.

Yeah I would know. My cousin serves in SF.

If you are a relative of an active member of the Armed Forces specially the intelligence or SF communities - dont announce it on open forum.

I countered many such posts in the past and that's what I wrote. Go back and read my previous posts, You'll find all the specifics you want. If you don't have that patience, don't make wayward comments about me in particular.

It doesnt matter if you cured cancer in your previous posts. There is no need to attack a poster or put down a whole group because you didnt like what they said.

First of all, you are no one to tell me what to do, or what is a waste of bandwidth.
I didn't direct my post at anyone in particular and posted generally. You were the one to try and make it into a slugfest for whatever reason. Maybe you want to try and be a hero. I don't really care

I didnt tell you anything. I am not your mommy. I made a suggestion.

What slugfest? I am asking you to stick to the topic and debate. Not play out some childhood fantasy of ruffling peoples hairs.

some people here insinuate by calling NSG drills crap. This audacity is what I don't get. When one might have never even held a firearm in their life.

if the NSG went through a complete 180degree overhaul post 26/11 then what do you make of their procedures prior to that? They were INDEED faulty. If it was possible once with a particular unit why cant that be the case for other units today? the word "Crap" is not to be taken literately.

Lastly the name calling was done by you (even if generic). Any Citizen of India is free to call their Armed Forces whatever they want. The Armed Forces are servants to the republic of India. not the other way around. If your ego cant handle it then thats on you. This was one of the first Value Lessons I was taught as a child by my family (both sides) have served (and died) in the Indian Armed Forces going all the way back to WWI.

 

[rkhanna]

I agree with @armyofhind. Constructive criticism is one thing. Persistent negativity is another thing altogether.

Why? You have a whole bunch of posters here who post outstanding pictures and updates on the SOF from equipment to missions etc and you have a bunch of posters who point out the absurd and the ridiculous. isnt that what a forum and an accumulation of information should entail?

The real picture is always in the middle and its better to have a more vibrant discussion than a PakDef type retarded worship culture.

 

[Bhadra]

Ghataks have their own training, the “commando course” for all infantry officers is very different.

As far as Ghataks go I’d say they’ve come a long way and generally seem pretty competent these days and are getting better and better equipment. I still think they need another 10 years to really nail their role.

I had a fortune of working with Indian SF at two three places in combat situations and have a very different impression and opinion about them. Equipment does not make them ... equipment-wise they may still be infantry. What makes them is something else. Equipment can be made up anytime. Throw the bucks and you get it..

About Commando course what I asked was - Does that course trains officers / soldiers well to execute commando tasks that may fall under purview of Infantry battalion operations?"

Implications are varied. Is not it?. No one wants an Infantry officer to be an SF ridden.

Infantry runs one of the finest and the best specialised training institutions in The world, namely - the CIJW School, HAWS and Commando School. All three types fit in very well with doctrinal objectives and theatre type operational roles of Infantry battalion. The question to all knowing Gurus here obliquically was how best to take advantage of those in training Ghataks.

Please pay attention - I am always using the word "Infantry battalion" and Ghatak's envisaged roles, tasks and employment will always fall within that scope. It is a Jugad by heavily rogered Infantry battalions If they start performing SF tasks then what is SF meant for?

 

[rkhanna]

About Commando course what I asked was - Does that course trains officers / soldiers well to execute commando tasks that may fall under purview of Infantry battalion operations?"

Yes and no. The Aim of the Commando Course in Belguam is to teach Junior Leaders the concept of Small Unit Leadership specially thinking in immense pressure cooker environments. The Small Unit (self sustained) tactics (commando) are ancillary to the primary lesson these young NCO/JCOs/Officers are learning. They are learning their own limitations and strengths and they are learning innovation and entrepreneurship in a combat Zone.
(The easiest analogy i can think of is US Army Ranger School)

To Further fullfill the commando tasks (Ghatak platoon) of an Infantry regiment in combat (LRRP/Sabotage/Scout/sniper/QRT etc) they go through further training at the regimental training centers (for a longer duration) so in that sense the Commando School is only abinitio.

HAWS/CIJWS/Parvat Ghatak are teaching advanced infantry skills for specific type of operations/terrain and hence its a bit different than Commando School.

For the other questions you have asked about the Ghataks, I have some thoughts but give me till the weekend to put my thoughts together and possibly start a new thread on it.

 

[Bhadra]

Half of the U.S. gun enthusiasts won't survive a day sitting in a trench fighting a company of enemy soldiers with their slick gun moves. The Infantry as in their primary role, defends or attacks a posn. You don't go clearing a trench after trench using those slick moves. It's about the objective.

Sir, we are missing something some where - the basic role of Infantry is to close in with enemy and destroy him by relentless close combat (that is what Infantry attack is all about) and that does involve clearing trench after trench, bunker after bunker and house after house . Attack - every one attacks - even artillery guns attack and so do tanks.
I agree though that US and many Westerner are actually bad at it.
.

And let me tell you this, most of the things being discussed about the ghataks here are pure misconceptions.

No ... it is below the dignity of SF to say anything about Infantry soldiers. That is the "satya vachan"..

 

[Bhadra]

Yes and no. The Aim of the Commando Course in Belguam is to teach Junior Leaders the concept of Small Unit Leadership specially thinking in immense pressure cooker environments. The Small Unit (self sustained) tactics (commando) are ancillary to the primary lesson these young NCO/JCOs/Officers are learning. They are learning their own limitations and strengths and they are learning innovation and entrepreneurship in a combat Zone.
(The easiest analogy i can think of is US Army Ranger School)

To Further fullfill the commando tasks (Ghatak platoon) of an Infantry regiment in combat (LRRP/Sabotage/Scout/sniper/QRT etc) they go through further training at the regimental training centers (for a longer duration) so in that sense the Commando School is only abinitio.

HAWS/CIJWS/Parvat Ghatak are teaching advanced infantry skills for specific type of operations/terrain and hence its a bit different than Commando School.

For the other questions you have asked about the Ghataks, I have some thoughts but give me till the weekend to put my thoughts together and possibly start a new thread on it.

Thank you sir. At least it is "Well Begun".....

From your reply I take that Commando school can start the rudimentary and basic shaping ....
Regimental centers might not have the expertise and resources to impart any training in specialized skills. The battalions are better suited for it.

 

[armyofhind]

If you are a relative of an active member of the Armed Forces specially the intelligence or SF communities - dont announce it on open forum.

that's okay, I take adequate steps to be untraceable in that regard.

There is no need to attack a poster or put down a whole group because you didnt like what they said.

I didn't attack anybody. I voiced my opinion and I'm free to do so like anyone else. Its you who's trying to give it the connotation of attacking. If I wanted to attack someone, I'd do it straightaway without getting into semantics.

Its actually cute to watch people disparage professionals without having any experience in that particular profession themselves.

if the NSG went through a complete 180degree overhaul post 26/11 then what do you make of their procedures prior to that? They were INDEED faulty. If it was possible once with a particular unit why cant that be the case for other units today? the word "Crap" is not to be taken literately.

This "180 degree overhaul" is something that is misused. Nobody outside of the NSG can definitively say where all the upgrades have taken place. Sure, new equipment has come in a systemic manner. But whether that extends to operating procedures, nobody can say and anyone making a claim like so is bluffing.
When 26/11 happened, its scale was unprecedented anywhere in the world. I remember reports of FBI HRT being contacted for advice at that time and them raising their hands due to inexperience in handling anything of this scale.
Even after that, NSG was able to contain the incident and take it to a successful conclusion, inspite of their equipment levels at that time. What does that say for their existing operational procedures?

I can say for sure that their hand to hand combat skills went under an upgrade with them opting for PTK as their system because I have trained under the man who taught it to them.

But to insinuate that their weapon handling and transition skills were crap before and crap now and that they need to ape everything the way Western SF do it is plain bullshit in my opinion.
That too coming from someone who has no experience whatsoever in that field. The matter would've been different had they been speaking from a position of authority, being ex-military or having served in a similar unit or so. But that's not the case here is it?
Suggestion is one thing, disparagement is another and I will call out keyboard warriors when I see them.

Any Citizen of India is free to call their Armed Forces whatever they want.

Not without reason and definitely not in a derogatory manner. Freedom of Speech isn't without consequence or responsibility.
Believing otherwise is what gives rise to the likes of Kanhaiya Kumar.


I am all for a vibrant discussion. But disparagement without reason is not something I'll take atleast.

 

[ALBY]

https://www.policeone.com/police-tr...-Are-SWAT-cops-using-a-sub-optimal-technique/
Pros and cons of using a c clamp grip

 

[MuzzleVelocity]

https://www.policeone.com/police-tr...-Are-SWAT-cops-using-a-sub-optimal-technique/
Pros and cons of using a c clamp grip

Good read. Thanks. Definitely feels like a type of stance that is not suited to long-lasting combat scenarios.