Indian Special Forces (archived)

[rkhanna]

If for whatever reason the HK416s cannot come through to India, I'd still prefer a gas piston AR-15 from a reputed manufacturer (Barrett, LWRC, SIG etc.) over the SCAR-L. But that's just me.

Honestly I am inclined to adopt the caracal 816 at various bbarrell lengths and work with the manufacturer to fix any teething problems. It's a marked improvement over the 416

Yes - though, we are more or less already there. Tavor TAR-21, M4A1

Just to nitpick while both are great guns in 2019 they are again outdate for SOF use. The Israelis have moved on to the new Gen Tavor and the M4 (AR15) platform also has evolved quiet a bit.

 

[Gessler]

Honestly I am inclined to adopt the caracal 816 at various bbarrell lengths and work with the manufacturer to fix any teething problems. It's a marked improvement over the 416

So it's said, though, I have heard some reports of reliability issues with the Caracal. In our operating conditions, I guess we will know for ourselves now that they've been trialed and earmarked for a deal.

Just to nitpick while both are great guns in 2019 they are again outdate for SOF use. The Israelis have moved on to the new Gen Tavor and the M4 (AR15) platform also has evolved quiet a bit.

...hence the SCAR procurement.

 

[ALBY]

I'm copy pasting one of my posts from another forum which dealt with Sandeep Unnithan's recent DailyO article about SF equipment order being delayed on DAC table...

https://www.dailyo.in/politics/para...try-of-defence-indian-army/story/1/30043.html

The chart from Sandeep's article:

View attachment 34061

My post that attempted to dissect some of the things in the list:

"

Appreciate this report for bringing the list out, unlike the previous totally lacklustre reports which couldn't bring the specifics to the fore regarding anything, and resorted to extremely vague terminologies. However, this isn't without bad news, as always, unneeded bureaucratic nonsense & red-tape screwing up procurement yet again.



Understandable....heavy brush environments (i.e. wooded area/heavy foliage etc.) more often than not favours heavier calibre rounds over the smaller ones, owing to their superior ability to penetrate without losing too much of their ballistic properties while going through leaves, branches & stumps.

And in that calibre, the SCAR H makes about as much sense as the best of them.

...the ad-hoc MGs they're talking about here are the PKM/PKTs taken from retired T-55 MBTs and/or captured from slain terrorists (they also include the Chinese copies of the same). Without discounting the merit of the weapon (PK is an excellent gun), it's quite appalling that the top SF units of a $3 trillion economy have to scavenge weapons from the field because they're not provided what they want. It's frustrating just to know, to be honest - however this bit itself about the PKs is not new to me or to many here.

The Mk.48 Mod 0/Mod 1 would make for an excellent squad-level MG in 7.62 Nato, the particular variant (Mk.48) was developed out of the FN Minimi (aka M249 SAW) keeping requirements of the US SOCOM in mind, I'd think it would serve the Indian SFs very well:

The SCAR L is a very real possibility as a replacement for the 5.56 M4A1s (I said as much in this thread a while ago), however, I have doubts regarding the buy of HK416. Now, it's not impossible to imagine HK416s making their way to India as in an FMS deal, it's the US DoD which places the orders and Heckler & Koch has no ban on selling to the US DoD, however, the Germans have very clear rules regarding end-users...

...for example, I put forth what happened with SIG Sauer in Germany very recently:

" German officials allege Sig Sauer manufactured at least 38,000 pistols in the company's facility in the town of Eckernforde between 2009 and 2011, before shipping the weapons to its U.S. entity's headquarters in New Hampshire, which then completed the transaction with Colombia. Sig Sauer is alleged to have covered up the shipment's final destination by submitting false paperwork, known as end-use certificates, to German export officials, stating that the weapons were bound solely for the United States. "

CEO Of U.S. Gun-Maker Faces Jail In Germany

(because export of weapons to Colombia was banned)

It is unclear to me personally what are the rules regarding end-user transfers of firearms manufactured within US however (as H&K has several production facilities in the US and more than likely these supposed HK416s will be produced there), however, H&K remains a German-owned and German-headquartered company answerable to German govt and laws. I'm skeptical of the 416s coming through.

That doesn't say anything regarding my personal preference however. I would definitely pick the HK416A5 over the SCAR L any day of the week. The Para (SF) operators, coming from the M4A1, would also find it easier to work with the AR-15 based HK design over the SCAR. End of the day, both are great guns - despite the SCAR L not having won particular praise among the US SOF community (owing to certain operating problems in extreme environments or so I've heard, don't know if they have been fixed).....pretty much everyone prefers the HK416 over it.

If for whatever reason the HK416s cannot come through to India, I'd still prefer a gas piston AR-15 from a reputed manufacturer (Barrett, LWRC, SIG etc.) over the SCAR-L. But that's just me.

The Sako sniper rifles I believe are actually the Tikka T3x TAC-A1, which are already ordered by MARCOS as far as I know. The Tikka brand is owned by Sako. Like how everyone reported the Army was buying Beretta sniper rifles for the LoC, whereas the rifles were actually from Victrix Armaments who is the designer/manufacturer, the Victrix brand however had Beretta as their parent company.

Of course, the possibility of an actual Sako rifle, like the TRG-42, is not to be ruled out either, but I personally think it is the Tikka:

They do not specify which is the Beretta handgun being bought...I would think, there are 3 options from the company:

Px4 Storm

M9A3 (latest iteration of the 92FS which some Paras use, the "M9" designation was originally only for the US military-issued 92FS, but later on, Beretta started naming its 92FS successor model as M9A3 internationally...or at least that will be the case as the model was specifically developed for the MHS competition. It's not to be ruled out that it will acquire a different name for the international market now that SIG won that competition. But till then, we have no name to refer to it other than as M9A3:

APX (my personal favourite, don't ask why...it's also the only striker-fired pistol among these three)

"

Some inputs I got from others indicated the Sako TRG-M10 in .338 lapmag could also potentially be the aforementioned Sako sniper rifle:

The thing about SF taking PKTs.from.tanks is highly exaggerated one.As PKTs and PKs are entirely different and cant be interchangeable from a tankers role to an infantry role as easily as it sounds.

 

[ALBY]

Just like rkhanna pointed there is no point in going for either Scar-L/H variants as Caracal which is an updated variant of Hk416/7 is available at a reasonable price.
At any day a Scar loses out to Hk41x series eventhough at a narrow margin.

 

[ALBY]

So it's said, though, I have heard some reports of reliability issues with the Caracal. In our operating conditions, I guess we will know for ourselves now that they've been trialed and earmarked for a deal.



...hence the SCAR procurement.

Reliability issues?? Please do share specifics

 

[Bhadra]

It is unfortunate that Indian army gets dragged into fighting the terrorists (Pakistan sponsored) and militants (local brainwashed youth) in Kashmir and NE, which should be handled entirely by Rakshamantri.
There should be complete separation of concerns. Our para force commandos, Marcos and Garuds are operating in Kashmir and many of them losing their lives in situations which do not do justice to their training and dedication.
Solution is to get CAPFs and local police forces the equipment and training to handle this situation, transfer Rashtriya and Assam Rifles under Rakshamantri and get our Paras, Marcos and Garuds out of this.

Indian Army wants it that way.
It was the top recommendation of Kargil Committee report way back in 2000.
MHA created a Internal Security division in MHA with fat and plum post for IAS / IPS.
Internal security under MHA has a fat budget.
But the task is still with Army.

The reason primarily is that terrorism / insurgencies in J&K, Nagaland, Manipur, Arunachal and Assam are primarily connected with foreign and bordering countries. Counter insurgency operations here are very closely linked to border management, operations in trans border areas, defense of internal areas, line of communications and logistic installations. These all aspects come under MoD. Moreover, operations in these areas require special legal condition under AFSPA applicable only to Armed forces.

Therefore, in order to maintain singularity of agencies, command and control these areas have been given to MoD. That I think is fine, though situation in NE might not change slowly in due course of time because Indian emphasis on Look East, Indian activities in Myanmar and Bangladesh as also internal situation in bordering areas.

 

[Gessler]

Just like rkhanna pointed there is no point in going for either Scar-L/H variants as Caracal which is an updated variant of Hk416/7 is available at a reasonable price.
At any day a Scar loses out to Hk41x series eventhough at a narrow margin.

Reliability issues?? Please do share specifics

I'll try to dig up the sources.

That said, the Caracal is based on a good design & platform, however, you don't get the kind of quality on a $1500 rifle like the CAR816 as you would on a $3000 one like HK416A5. From what I know, the CAR816 is designed to more or less be an affordable, "good enough" version of the HK416.

Design wise, yes, it's made some evolution (owing to them being designed by the same people), but when you're offering it for basically half-price, you HAVE to cut corners. Not possible otherwise.

The Para SF choice of SCAR-L/H is not up for debate anymore though - it's already a done decision.

 

[samsaptaka]

https://medium.com/@Bhoot/खूब-लड़ी-she-fought-better-than-men-that-day-78916f7a2d93
Sad ...

Its Dron M Acharya. Looks like he is co authoring a book with some one else.
The above site also has some excerpts from the book. Fascinating to say the least.

 

[rkhanna]

So it's said, though, I have heard some reports of reliability issues with the Caracal. In our operating conditions, I guess we will know for ourselves now that they've been trialed and earmarked for a deal.

Do remember the pain we went through while inducting the Tavors

And from what I have read and heard the caracal js not a 'good enough' 416 but a marked evolution. The 2 chief engineers who built the caracal are the same people who's name are on the 416 patents. And it's optimized for desert warfare.

It's also gone through iterative improvements before being offered for sale in America. Where I believe it did quiet will in stress testing albit in the civilian avatar

The SCAR H imo has many problems. It's stability and recoil comes at a cost. The Barrel emits so much heat/gas on discharge that you cant have another operator next to you. IMO the SIG 716 is a perfect compromise

(PS the SIG 516 are the same engineers as the 816 and the 416 )


But MOST importantly we need to upskill out SOF quartermasters and gunsmiths to further work the the guns to perfection

 

[Gessler]

Do remember the pain we went through while inducting the Tavors

And from what I have read and heard the caracal js not a 'good enough' 416 but a marked evolution. The 2 chief engineers who built the caracal are the same people who's name are on the 416 patents. And it's optimized for desert warfare.

It's also gone through iterative improvements before being offered for sale in America. Where I believe it did quiet will in stress testing albit in the civilian avatar

I don't deny the 816 underwent design evolution over the 416. However, how good the weapon ultimately is can only be decided when used on the field for considerable time. Time the HK416 put in.

Like I said, the Caracal is pretty much a half-price version of 416. Even if you account for the HK badge & brand value, that's still a markedly cheaper weapon. I remain unconvinced that the Caracal makers did not cut corners wrt materials and long-term reliability for the sake of a much lower asking price (which would be what is expected from them anyway) giving them a better chance in the market.

Even the SCAR L was great at testing. Once it saw extended use however, the case was somewhat different.

The SCAR H imo has many problems. It's stability and recoil comes at a cost. The Barrel emits so much heat/gas on discharge that you cant have another operator next to you. IMO the SIG 716 is a perfect compromise

Heard of these issues. But then again, in what it does, the SCAR H is a terrific weapon. Reason why it's still in use by Tier-1 operators (e.g. DEVGRU) despite the fact they could have just as easily bought the HK417/G28 (US Army is actually going for the 417-based M110A1 as the CSASS DMR).

Regarding the SCAR though, in Indian conditions, units like SG have been using at least the H version for many years and I doubt Paras made the decision for the buy without inputs from existing operators.

 

[MuzzleVelocity]

Guys. I have a doubt. Clear it up please.

So I have been watching videos of the US SOF and other units recently and something struck me. The Operators always keep their support arm (left arm generally) in a sideways position in relation to the rifle. Unless ofcourse there is a a support grip available.


Indian operators (and most soldiers), support the rifle from below, using their support arm.

Is there a difference in the two firing stances?

 

[Gessler]

Guys. I have a doubt. Clear it up please.

So I have been watching videos of the US SOF and other units recently and something struck me. The Operators always keep their support arm (left arm generally) in a sideways position in relation to the rifle. Unless ofcourse there is a a support grip available.


Indian operators (and most soldiers), support the rifle from below, using their support arm.

Is there a difference in the two firing stances?

The Western (and Russian) SFs in recent times do drill the C-Clamp grip (what you saw), as it has a marked improvement in reducing muzzle climb and enhancing control on the weapon. There's nothing outright wrong with the traditional grip (as used by our forces), in fact I believe the traditional grip allows for lesser fatigue on the support arm.

Usually, both types of grips are used pretty interchangeable, as per shooter's comfort and situation.

 

[rkhanna]

I don't deny the 816 underwent design evolution over the 416. However, how good the weapon ultimately is can only be decided when used on the field for considerable time. Time the HK416 put in.

Like I said, the Caracal is pretty much a half-price version of 416. Even if you account for the HK badge & brand value, that's still a markedly cheaper weapon. I remain unconvinced that the Caracal makers did not cut corners wrt materials and long-term reliability for the sake of a much lower asking price (which would be what is expected from them anyway) giving them a better chance in the market.

Even the SCAR L was great at testing. Once it saw extended use however, the case was somewhat different.



Heard of these issues. But then again, in what it does, the SCAR H is a terrific weapon. Reason why it's still in use by Tier-1 operators (e.g. DEVGRU) despite the fact they could have just as easily bought the HK417/G28 (US Army is actually going for the 417-based M110A1 as the CSASS DMR).

Regarding the SCAR though, in Indian conditions, units like SG have been using at least the H version for many years and I doubt Paras made the decision for the buy without inputs from existing operators.

All fair points but again I will point to our experience with the Tavor. We were the first to put it to combat use and evolve it .

Also the cost difference can also be attributed to cost of manufacturing in Germany. Cost of capital in the UAE is virtually zero specially when funded by the govt.

On the Scar H - do note that tier I are using it as a DMR and not a battle rifle. In India we have been using it as a battle rifle. Which is why I say for a bytle rifle the sig maybe the easier choice

 

[aghamarshana]

The Western (and Russian) SFs in recent times do drill the C-Clamp grip (what you saw), as it has a marked improvement in reducing muzzle climb and enhancing control on the weapon. There's nothing outright wrong with the traditional grip (as used by our forces), in fact I believe the traditional grip allows for lesser fatigue on the support arm.

Usually, both types of grips are used pretty interchangeable, as per shooter's comfort and situation.

Sure that our SF equipment will match Rangers and Green Berets in near future. But do u think we go with Quarter Zip vests or remain unchanged by then? Is there any benefits of adopting multicam Quarter zip tees instead of regular attires? I have this doubt since standardisation made almost all SOFs( including Russians) adopt quarter zip vests and combat pants with embedded knee guards.
Please explain abt it.

 

[ezsasa]

@Gessler You should have a look at this document....
Future upgrades and acquisitions for IA(in addition of RFI's being released simultaneously) are no longer a open ended discussion. if it is in this list, it will happen sometime in the future.... if not there is no point discussing until it comes on this list....

https://indianarmy.nic.in/makeinindia/CPDS Vol IV 2019.pdf
It's available in make in india section of indian army website....

 

[Gessler]

Sure that our SF equipment will match Rangers and Green Berets in near future. But do u think we go with Quarter Zip vests or remain unchanged by then?

Many units in India (both military and MHA) are already adopting quarter-zip shirts. I can only see their usage going up from now.

Just go back several pages on this very thread, you'll come across many images.

The QZ shirts are comfortable for when wearing a vest (the torso material is made light & breathable, while the arms/shoulders are made of much sturdier cloth). Regular BDUs can get pretty uncomfortable in humid or otherwise hot conditions.

Is there any benefits of adopting multicam Quarter zip tees instead of regular attires?

The advantages of QZ shirts in general I told you already. Speaking of Multicam, I do like it more than any other camo pattern in the world right now. In fact I advocate switching to a modified version as the standard-issue uniform pattern for all Army personnel (different variants like Normal, Arid, Tropical etc. are available for theatre-specific usage).

Something I observed over years is that the Multicam pattern & colors actually suits the Indian conditions and terrain pretty well.

^^ Guy on right is a Kazakh soldier in a joint exercise in India.

I have this doubt since standardisation made almost all SOFs( including Russians) adopt quarter zip vests and combat pants with embedded knee guards.
Please explain abt it.

The conformal knee & elbow pads are designed to afford joint protection without using the regular strap-around retention system. Thing with those strapped-on pads is that blood flow can get quite restricted if taking to the knee for extended periods. The conformal inserts alleviate that problem.

So far, I don't think I've seen any Indian unit with such pads (and Crye Gen3-pattern pants which support them), but I reckon it won't be long before someone adopts them.

All fair points but again I will point to our experience with the Tavor. We were the first to put it to combat use and evolve it .

Also the cost difference can also be attributed to cost of manufacturing in Germany. Cost of capital in the UAE is virtually zero specially when funded by the govt.

On the Scar H - do note that tier I are using it as a DMR and not a battle rifle. In India we have been using it as a battle rifle. Which is why I say for a bytle rifle the sig maybe the easier choice

Both the Caracal carbines and the HK416 (civilian semi-auto known as MR556) sold in US market are actually manufactured at US-based plants, I believe?

In our case though, we are likely to get UAE-made CAR816s only. Not the US-made A2 variant.

 

[rkhanna]

Many units in India (both military and MHA) are already adopting quarter-zip shirts. I can only see their usage going up from now.

Just go back several pages on this very thread, you'll come across many images.

The QZ shirts are comfortable for when wearing a vest (the torso material is made light & breathable, while the arms/shoulders are made of much sturdier cloth). Regular BDUs can get pretty uncomfortable in humid or otherwise hot conditions.



The advantages of QZ shirts in general I told you already. Speaking of Multicam, I do like it more than any other camo pattern in the world right now. In fact I advocate switching to a modified version as the standard-issue uniform pattern for all Army personnel (different variants like Normal, Arid, Tropical etc. are available for theatre-specific usage).

Something I observed over years is that the Multicam pattern & colors actually suits the Indian conditions and terrain pretty well.

^^ Guy on right is a Kazakh soldier in a joint exercise in India.



The conformal knee & elbow pads are designed to afford joint protection without using the regular strap-around retention system. Thing with those strapped-on pads is that blood flow can get quite restricted if taking to the knee for extended periods. The conformal inserts alleviate that problem.

So far, I don't think I've seen any Indian unit with such pads (and Crye Gen3-pattern pants which support them), but I reckon it won't be long before someone adopts them.



Both the Caracal carbines and the HK416 (civilian semi-auto known as MR556) sold in US market are actually manufactured at US-based plants, I believe?

In our case though, we are likely to get UAE-made CAR816s only. Not the US-made A2 variant.

Why would there a differencebin quality at the us plant compared to the UAE one. It's their plant.

The 2 engineers key job in setting up the company was not just designing the gun .They set up the entire factory from scratch- the machines the processes and quality control. There is a very dwrdetai article on the whole set up somewhere. I'll find and post it .

Also on the qzip shirts. Kinda stupid that only the top of the kit got an upgrade and the soldiers have to wear the same old bdu pants

 

[Gessler]

Why would there a differencebin quality at the us plant compared to the UAE one. It's their plant.

The 2 engineers key job in setting up the company was not just designing the gun .They set up the entire factory from scratch- the machines the processes and quality control. There is a very dwrdetai article on the whole set up somewhere. I'll find and post it .

I'm talking about the difference in cost of manufacturing, not quality.

You said "Also the cost difference can also be attributed to cost of manufacturing in Germany. Cost of capital in the UAE is virtually zero specially when funded by the govt."

I believed you said that making even a gun of same quality as HK416, but in the UAE as compared to Germany, would reduce the price. Fair point - but to that I said that both the CAR816 and HK416 sold in US market are actually made in US itself, so the cost of manufacturing (setting up facilities, labour costs etc.) is more or less equalized.

 

[abingdonboy]

I'm talking about the difference in cost of manufacturing, not quality.

You said "Also the cost difference can also be attributed to cost of manufacturing in Germany. Cost of capital in the UAE is virtually zero specially when funded by the govt."

I believed you said that making even a gun of same quality as HK416, but in the UAE as compared to Germany, would reduce the price. Fair point - but to that I said that both the CAR816 and HK416 sold in US market are actually made in US itself, so the cost of manufacturing (setting up facilities, labour costs etc.) is more or less equalized.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Indian SF are the WORST equipped in the world barring truly failed states like Somalia or sub-Saharan Africa.

It’s what happens when you lack vision from leadership, have endless red tape and refuse to allocate sufficient resources to the military.

The SOD *may* change this picture but it will take a while to see results.

For the cost of a single Rafale/MKI you could transform ever PARA (SF) into a CAG/Delta force level equipment

 

[rkhanna]

I'm talking about the difference in cost of manufacturing, not quality.

You said "Also the cost difference can also be attributed to cost of manufacturing in Germany. Cost of capital in the UAE is virtually zero specially when funded by the govt."

I believed you said that making even a gun of same quality as HK416, but in the UAE as compared to Germany, would reduce the price. Fair point - but to that I said that both the CAR816 and HK416 sold in US market are actually made in US itself, so the cost of manufacturing (setting up facilities, labour costs etc.) is more or less equalized.

Ah my bad. Mistook what you said. Fair point . But again cost of setting up new production ( which will get amortized over time for caracal) would be higher. But you are right HK has been in America for a while and would be cheaper