Indian Special Forces (archived)

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

1. Maharashtra Govt Cannot order any Indian Military Unit to do squat. only MOD can. MARCOS and TA were deployed for containment before MHA deployed NSG.

- THe situation was not beyond their capability. It was beyond their Capacity. Know the difference.

- 51 SAG / 52 SAG is the only unit capable of being Stretched in 3 directions

- MARCOS was redeployed across the City to Secure High Value Installations belonging to the military once NSG was on the scene.

- Regarding Interviews, et, al please quote context otherwise its a pointless moot point

2. Who said MARCOS is a CQB specialist more than NSG. but for you to say they have no CQB skills suffers on the point of stupidity. - MARCOS however does not Practice Hostage Rescue. CQB is onething HRT is a whole different ball game. AGAIN know the difference.

3. Who said anything about Marcos operating anywhere and doing anything ? Irony is that you created this hypothesis and are trying to to dispute it.

4. MARCOS is as one dimensional as the Paras or NSG or the Garuds or the SG. Defining dimension is a matter of perspective. Everybody is crossed trained in everything else but everybody has speciality in some over others. Difference lies in Tasking, and experience.

Is your eye sight low these days?
When did i say ordered(know the difference)..I said the Maharastra govt called the GOC in Mumbai to ask for help to which the GOC replied..I have seen this in a interview given by the GOC when the attack happened.

Marcos have no CQB skills..haha..again get your eyes tested..All i said was that Marcos cannot be better than NSG in CQB due to one dimensional nature.Cross training and all is good for a few operators and not for the whole unit.

Para as a whole are not one dimensional.Even a kid on the forum knows various units have various objectives so on the whole they become a complete SF.

Para SF has operators serving in your favourite SG to SAG and BG for GOC.Such varied skill and training and deployments all across India where they face real action on a day to day basis..If this is one dimensional for you then i cannot make it any clear for you.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

That was my point, they are trained for all theaters of operation, but their specialization is in one theater, otherwise there would be no need for specialization of forces. But, it doesn't mean that they can't operate in a non-specialized sphere, its just that their tactics is unsuitable for it and possibilities of suffering casualties would be higher.

Buddy even Infantry soldiers are sometimes trained for hostage rescue but that doesnt mean that they are experts in that.Every unit is trained for the worst situation possible.

But to be a true SF who can be deployed at any short notice in any terrain they should be the experts of it.

Most SF maintain a special team for various terrains and train them through the year for that.Some people have a problem with the word 'one dimension' but thats indeed the nature of training of some SF in India.

Tell me which unit except Para SF maintains a desert raider,mountain warrior,diver,CQB specialists ready throught the year training them for it.

But some people think cross training is like getting PHD in a short time but the reality is that cross training is a crash course.

A SF operator who trains a month for mountain warfare cannot compete with a SF operator who does it every year.

 

[HarshBardhan]

MARCOS-Marine Commandos

 

[S.Balaji]

NSG cleared 500 rooms in Taj Mahal Mumbai....in each room they would kick the door in, didn't use stun grenades or tear gas etc, since they didn't know who they will find a terrorist or a civilian?, clear the room without killing the hiding civilians in closet n under the bed/table etc, kick the washroom door in, again clear the room without killing hiding hostages...without knowing whether while opening a thin closet door u get a hail of bullets or a scared to hell civilian... civilians under tremendous pressure react unpredictably as they don't know who the hell is kicking the door in.....

NSG did this exercise ...room after room ....floor after floor ....cleared 500+ room
ZERO civilian casualties during rescue in room clearance. Only 1 NSG Matyr in Taj.
300+ civilians were rescued this way..
We have not seen such contemprory comparable hostage crises of such huge no of hostagesbwith such comparable outcomes of zero civilian deaths during rescue .....

Only comparable in scale is beslan high school massacre where resume attempt left 330 dead including half the no of children and Moscow theatre siege, during which rescue attempt left 177 people dead.

In both cases casualties were taken during rescue unlike Mumbai were it was fidayeen attack from word go.

NSG did a commendable job in hostage rescue... they train every day....on the lines of sas hrt .....train every day ...365 days a year....

 

[aditya g]

Nice summary there. For sake of record, if we think about it the regularity of HRT and/or large scale building clearance operations is quite high.

Just to point out some recent ones:

• 2017 - Pulwama - Civil Police Lines
• 2017 - Srinagar - DPS Pantha Chowk
• 2017 - Pampore - EDI
• 2016 - Pathankot - AF Station
• 2015 - Samba - Army Cantt
• 2002 - Ahmedabad - Akshardham
• 2001 - Delhi - Parliament
• 1988 - Amritsar - Op Black Thunder II
• 1986 - Amritsar - Op Black Thunder
• 1984 - Amritsar - Op Bluestar

I havent been able to research all Ops, but others may include 2002 Kaluchak Cantt etc. I will appreciate if others can give me pointers for more ops. I hope you see the pattern though.

No wonder our forces are the most battle hardended in the world.

@Gessler @rkhanna @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR @reddevil9

NSG cleared 500 rooms in Taj Mahal Mumbai....in each room they would kick the door in, didn't use stun grenades or tear gas etc, since they didn't know who they will find a terrorist or a civilian?, clear the room without killing the hiding civilians in closet n under the bed/table etc, kick the washroom door in, again clear the room without killing hiding hostages...without knowing whether while opening a thin closet door u get a hail of bullets or a scared to hell civilian... civilians under tremendous pressure react unpredictably as they don't know who the hell is kicking the door in.....

NSG did this exercise ...room after room ....floor after floor ....cleared 500+ room
ZERO civilian casualties during rescue in room clearance. Only 1 NSG Matyr in Taj.
300+ civilians were rescued this way..
We have not seen such contemprory comparable hostage crises of such huge no of hostagesbwith such comparable outcomes of zero civilian deaths during rescue .....

Only comparable in scale is beslan high school massacre where resume attempt left 330 dead including half the no of children and Moscow theatre siege, during which rescue attempt left 177 people dead.

In both cases casualties were taken during rescue unlike Mumbai were it was fidayeen attack from word go.

NSG did a commendable job in hostage rescue... they train every day....on the lines of sas hrt .....train every day ...365 days a year....

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Nice summary there. For sake of record, if we think about it the regularity of HRT and/or large scale building clearance operations is quite high.

Just to point out some recent ones:

• 2017 - Pulwama - Civil Police Lines
• 2017 - Srinagar - DPS Pantha Chowk
• 2017 - Pampore - EDI
• 2016 - Pathankot - AF Station
• 2015 - Samba - Army Cantt
• 2002 - Ahmedabad - Akshardham
• 2001 - Delhi - Parliament
• 1988 - Amritsar - Op Black Thunder II
• 1986 - Amritsar - Op Black Thunder
• 1984 - Amritsar - Op Bluestar

I havent been able to research all Ops, but others may include 2002 Kaluchak Cantt etc. I will appreciate if others can give me pointers for more ops. I hope you see the pattern though.

No wonder our forces are the most battle hardended in the world.

@Gessler @rkhanna @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR @reddevil9

Around 5 by NSG and around 5 by Para SF.

I was a student of Army school Kaluchak.I got lucky that my bus was running late.

Have lost my friends in Kaluchak and Raghunath temple attack.

Anyway,Para SF what can i say.Hatsoff any operation..anytime..anywhere.

After the 10 Para casualties in Pampore the 9 SF was on standby.This operation changed the tactics of Indian Army.

What sells in USA is not always the best.In India many times room intervention CQB is not the right tactic as it might lead to high casualties.

People say IA has high officer casualty but we should also see that Capt. Pawan was the no.1 while entering the room.

In western forces the Capt is sitting in a AC room watching the live feed.

 

[Immanuel]

MARCOS train to take lives. They are specialists in CQB assaults, they are more than capable of taking down well fortified defensive measures in close quarters, their mandate is hardly to save lives, rather they focus on causing mass kills/casualties for the enemy.

NSG train to save lives.

 

[rkhanna]

MARCOS train to take lives. They are specialists in CQB assaults, they are more than capable of taking down well fortified defensive measures in close quarters, their mandate is hardly to save lives, rather they focus on causing mass kills/casualties for the enemy.

NSG train to save lives.

Amen. That's all I was trying to bring tonight

 

[rkhanna]

Around 5 by NSG and around 5 by Para SF.

I was a student of Army school Kaluchak.I got lucky that my bus was running late.

Have lost my friends in Kaluchak and Raghunath temple attack.

Anyway,Para SF what can i say.Hatsoff any operation..anytime..anywhere.

After the 10 Para casualties in Pampore the 9 SF was on standby.This operation changed the tactics of Indian Army.

What sells in USA is not always the best.In India many times room intervention CQB is not the right tactic as it might lead to high casualties.

People say IA has high officer casualty but we should also see that Capt. Pawan was the no.1 while entering the room.

In western forces the Capt is sitting in a AC room watching the live feed.

Just want to say. Western militaries operations are run by senior nco. India is just building up to starting to give responsibilities to jcos. In India captians even command platoon level ops.

However that being said . Usa sf oda are often commanded by majors.

 

[rohit b3]

NSG cleared 500 rooms in Taj Mahal Mumbai....in each room they would kick the door in, didn't use stun grenades or tear gas etc, since they didn't know who they will find a terrorist or a civilian?, clear the room without killing the hiding civilians in closet n under the bed/table etc, kick the washroom door in, again clear the room without killing hiding hostages...without knowing whether while opening a thin closet door u get a hail of bullets or a scared to hell civilian... civilians under tremendous pressure react unpredictably as they don't know who the hell is kicking the door in.....

NSG did this exercise ...room after room ....floor after floor ....cleared 500+ room
ZERO civilian casualties during rescue in room clearance. Only 1 NSG Matyr in Taj.
300+ civilians were rescued this way..
We have not seen such contemprory comparable hostage crises of such huge no of hostagesbwith such comparable outcomes of zero civilian deaths during rescue .....

Only comparable in scale is beslan high school massacre where resume attempt left 330 dead including half the no of children and Moscow theatre siege, during which rescue attempt left 177 people dead.

In both cases casualties were taken during rescue unlike Mumbai were it was fidayeen attack from word go.

NSG did a commendable job in hostage rescue... they train every day....on the lines of sas hrt .....train every day ...365 days a year....

Loved reading this comment....till you reached your "sas hrt" line. Indians need to overthrow this colonial mentality of Brit licking ! Its 2017 now!
This also needs to be understood that the NSG is a specialized CT-HR force. Their procedure is completely different than any Army Special force .
They have far higher experience and success when it comes to Ct-HR than any other Special forces unit in the World and they form a model for many other Special forces worldwide.

The US Special forces had been trying to get an appointment with the NSG for 10 years!

https://warisboring.com/green-berets-train-with-indian-counter-terror-commandos-2/

According to sources, Hawai-based Special Operations Command Pacific of the U.S. Army has been trying to engage NSG for the last 10 years but it is only since the arrival of Modi government that “things have started moving along.” The plans for this joint training were first mooted in 2013, and were further discussed during President Obama’s visit to India in January.

Apart from that people have no idea how many Special forces worldwide model their procedure after the NSG, especially after the 26/11 success.
Just because the NSG does not make a documentary everytime they save a hostage like the Brits do, does not make the Brits better.
If any Indian Special forces followed their procedure/ training on lines with the West, they would have already got their ass whooped like NATO in Afghanistan.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Just want to say. Western militaries operations are run by senior nco. India is just building up to starting to give responsibilities to jcos. In India captians even command platoon level ops.

However that being said . Usa sf oda are often commanded by majors.

Sirji,it all comes down to the education level differences between USA and Indian Army IMHO.

Indian jawans until 20 years ago were not very well educated and lacked the aptitude to lead in such kind of operations.

And that is why we have to put so many officers on the line of fire..which is not a bad idea.

If our jawans develop the level of education and aptitude to take decisions on the line of fire like officers we can either become like

*The US Army where Officers make strategy and NCO lead the ops.

*Or our good old British Army system but with less pressure on the offcrs.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Return part was most difficult: Major who led surgical strikes across LoC

http://www.timesnownews.com/india/a...jor-who-led-surgical-strikes-across-loc/88594

This account of the incident say 2 PA personnel were killed but according to the sting operation by CNN IBN the SP Gujranwala had said that 5 PA were killed.

 

[S.Balaji]

Loved reading this comment....till you reached your "sas hrt" line. Indians need to overthrow this colonial mentality of Brit licking ! Its 2017 now!
This also needs to be understood that the NSG is a specialized CT-HR force. Their procedure is completely different than any Army Special force .
They have far higher experience and success when it comes to Ct-HR than any other Special forces unit in the World and they form a model for many other Special forces worldwide.

The US Special forces had been trying to get an appointment with the NSG for 10 years!

https://warisboring.com/green-berets-train-with-indian-counter-terror-commandos-2/

According to sources, Hawai-based Special Operations Command Pacific of the U.S. Army has been trying to engage NSG for the last 10 years but it is only since the arrival of Modi government that “things have started moving along.” The plans for this joint training were first mooted in 2013, and were further discussed during President Obama’s visit to India in January.

Apart from that people have no idea how many Special forces worldwide model their procedure after the NSG, especially after the 26/11 success.
Just because the NSG does not make a documentary everytime they save a hostage like the Brits do, does not make the Brits better.
If any Indian Special forces followed their procedure/ training on lines with the West, they would have already got their ass whooped like NATO in Afghanistan.

The reason I flagged SAS was to highlight the benchmark in frequency we maintain in training.....Special projects team of SAS CRW's counter terrorism hostage rescue team specialising in airplane interventions on tarmac were the ones who brought in the practice of training everday.... using an Boeing 747 body with engineers able to configure different variants...every day during the heights of provo IRA insurgency ..post 1972 Olympics killing....at that time no other sof in the world had maintained that level of frequency for a such a narrow spectrum contingency in hostage rescue domain....as I said I just quoted the benchmark they set, which our NSG emulated.

For operational efficacy I HV already flagged comparable contemporary scenarios (beslan n Moscow) where nsg stands tall with best outcome of zero hostage casualties among 300+ hostages rescued....

 

[HarshBardhan]

All Para SF battalions trained for operations in various terrains in Mountains , Desert , Urban Warfare , Jungle Warfare and Amphibious Operations.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

All Para SF battalions trained for operations in various terrains in Mountains , Desert , Urban Warfare , Jungle Warfare and Amphibious Operations.

And cross deployements..not cross training.

Big difference between the two.

 

[Immanuel]

Look Marcos,SFF,NSG and Garuds are one dimensional force.Each has their one speciality for which they are the best.

Now what fanboys do is that without thinking they say Marcos is the best because Seal is the best and Marcos are Indian seals...which is bullshit.

Marcos wont last much if we put them in Thar desert as compared to 10 Para.Similarly Garuds would not last long in himalayas as compared to SFF or ITBP.

Same for NSG when you take them out of urban warfare...Marcos could not handle 26/11 and NSG cannot handle maritime warfare.

This is why i say that Para commandos are the only complete SF in India.

They have the best moutain warriors.
The best desert raiders.
The best ex nsg SAG guys.
The best jungle warriors.
And combat divers who can hold their own.

Why this BS about forces such a Garuds, Marcos and others being one dimensional. Garuds and Marcos train in the desert, jungles, mountains too. When one becomes a probationary SF trainee any of these forces, only a tough as nails commitment and iron will allow them to continue or complete a training course which could last anywhere between 3-5 years and includes many of the prestigious schools across the country. These are men who are adaptable, know that they either perform at their very best capability or perish. The best mountain warriors are not Para SF, Ladhak Scouts, Gorkhas, Nagas and some others would runs circles around Para in this regard.

I assure you in the elite community there is no such thing as best, any Garud today can hold his own against any Para. Any of these men can be trusted to learn any set of new skills and master them with time.

Classifying Para SF as the only true almighty force is silly and naive. Grow up.

 

[aditya g]

Return part was most difficult: Major who led surgical strikes across LoC

http://www.timesnownews.com/india/a...jor-who-led-surgical-strikes-across-loc/88594

This account of the incident say 2 PA personnel were killed but according to the sting operation by CNN IBN the SP Gujranwala had said that 5 PA were killed.

I checked all my files on Surgical Strike, have not found anything different .... for what its worth

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Why this BS about forces such a Garuds, Marcos and others being one dimensional. Garuds and Marcos train in the desert, jungles, mountains too. When one becomes a probationary SF trainee any of these forces, only a tough as nails commitment and iron will allow them to continue or complete a training course which could last anywhere between 3-5 years and includes many of the prestigious schools across the country. These are men who are adaptable, know that they either perform at their very best capability or perish. The best mountain warriors are not Para SF, Ladhak Scouts, Gorkhas, Nagas and some others would runs circles around Para in this regard.

I assure you in the elite community there is no such thing as best, any Garud today can hold his own against any Para. Any of these men can be trusted to learn any set of new skills and master them with time.

Classifying Para SF as the only true almighty force is silly and naive. Grow up.

Do you all read storybooks and come to the forum or do all of you guys really have an idea about how special forces are trained and deployed?

Which school does Garud and Marcos have for high altitude warfare where they train for 3 to 5 years and become tough as nails...now give me an answer and dont reply with fucking philosophy about cross training.

Ladakh scouts,gorkhas and Naga will run circles around Para??..Are you fucking kidding me.

Read about OPERATION KHUKRI.

The best from these unit goes to PARA and not vice versa.

In the Kargil war..high altitude war...the Paras got the unit citation.THE ONLY SF!!!!


Let me know the schools where Marcos and Garuds are trained for High Altitude and Desert warfare and their deployments to these area with photos.

Marcos are deployed around srinagar city which is not a high altitude area.Marcos are not deployed in Thar desert..What are you even talking about?

How many squadrons/flights/teams/units are dedicated in Garuds for desert raids?

How many times have Marcos operated on the LOC,LOLAB,HAFRUDA,??How many deployments in Siachen???

I can bet and say that those who have a problem with my ONE DIMENSIONAL tag have no answer for this.

Standard replies are philosophy and not the reality.

Lastly,Show some fucking respect to PARA.If you count all the bravery awards won by Garud,marcos etc and even add it still it wont be remotely close to what the PARA has.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To all,

I dont know whats so fcking hard to understand.I will try to explain everyone in 2+2=4 logic.

Para has around 10 thousand operators.

650 of them are dedicated to Desert warfare throughout their life posted in Jodhpur.

Around 4 units are based in Jammu and kashmir and sorrounding regions for high mountian warfare.

1st Para is a tactically stratergic force.

12 and 21 para are on the east ready for guerrilla warfare.

Now,on the fucking whole..if you add this up..what do you have??

A special force which has all fcking kinds of operators for all kinds of terrain.


Marcos are 2000 in number.

Deployed all across south India with no base of its own in Kashmir.

They are attached to RR units or brigades.

They do not have a high altitude deployemnt like in lolab,hafruda or the line of control.

They do not serve in Siachen.

They do not serve in the north east.

Their job in kashmir is in wular lake and the villages nearby which is by no means a 16,000 ft mountain range.

Garuds i wont criticise much as they are a new force for a different task.


The best schools for all kinds of training has instructors from Para SF.(except combat diving)


Now whats so hard to understand in this.Some of you really show signs of a low IQ and then instead of reasoning with respect you cross the line by getting personal.

"no i wont agree with you because all sf are trained for every kind of warfare"

BC when did i say they are not?? I fucking said they are concentrating in 1 kind of warfare by not having a seperate team for a special kind of warfare.Like for desert warfare there is no Marcos team in Thar desert.

"no marcos are the best and they cross train and they are indian seals and their desert team is in kochi and another one in goa and they are the best for HRT and also CQB"

How the fuck does CQB training make them a multi dimensional SF?Will they do CQB on Siachen or in the middle of a desert?

'no marcos and garuds are the best even when they are not always deployed there"

WTAF!!!!

 

[WARREN SS]

Today I was going through YouTube in Morning I find this video
It Makes my blood boils How corrupt are System See the Police Thulla SHO of some Stupid Police thana He has no respect of Army or his Ranks

Here Is video Of Indian Para SF operater Who's Sister Faced Domestic violence

Operator Is Wondering Place to Place Justice for His family member

It really made Me Sick Man Fuck this country !!!! Why should These Brave men Die For these Asshole's And these pathetic People

When You Can See Anger And Helplessness in Eyes Of One of the Most Bravest And Patriotic Men You know this country is Fucked



@COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

I know these one Of the Saddest And Pathetic part of Society But people Should see this

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Today I was going through YouTube in Morning I find this video
It Makes my blood boils How corrupt are System See the Police Thulla SHO of some Stupid Police thana He has no respect of Army or his Ranks

Here Is video Of Indian Para SF operater Who's Who Faced Domestic violence

Operator Is Wondering Place to Place Justice for His family member

It really made Me Sick Man Fuck this country !!!! Why should These Brave men Die For these Asshole's And these pathetic People

When You Can See Anger And Helplessness in Eyes Of One of the Most Bravest And Patriotic Men You know this country is Fucked



@COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

I know these one Of the Saddest And Pathetic part of Society But people Should see this

I saw this video a month or so ago and it made my blood boil too.

These guys would not hesitate to volunteer for a no survival mission against the enemy and our Policeman is showing this attitude.

I wish we had a special branch in the Army which took care of such things.

This is why we have high suicide cases.

Very sad situation.