Indian Special Forces (archived)

[sthf]

You don't need SOFs for force/asset protection. This is wasteful & plain wrong. What you need is properly trained, equipped & professional DSC units with SOFs acting as QRF.

Lathi wielding 55 year olds can barely deter a couple of teens. Repulsing a terror attack is far from their capabilities.

 

[WARREN SS]

Old news, was an issue 5 years ago but has been rectified now.

You missed my point. We RE-SET The Clock on this. My original post was talking about the SOFREP article and drawing parallels.

We went for Quantity instead of quality and are now filling the gaps. Is that the best way?

Garud's are now in expansion mode. Will we repeat mistakes? We in India have a unique ability to continue repeating mistakes.


↑
"
Somewhat true but Garuds are still young and building up their capacity bit by bit.

The Garuds have done SEAD missions in RedFlag with aplomb. But again my point got missed. IAF heirachy still is not allocating enough resources to build a strong foundation or their capability. Garuds assume the role of AFSOC and be split into units that have dedicated Roles

1. SEAD / Combat Controllers - Need to work with Regular Para's to bring up capability
2. CSAR -
3. C-Infil / Force Protection


↑
No, SF have no limitations on their training/practive.

Today an avg Army SF soldier is shooting 100 bullets a week. Their Internal requirement is for 3x that. 100 bullets a week is phenomenal - but they themselves see areas to improve.
I know atleast 1 pre-fab Shooting range requested that was turned down because of budget.

Hell till a couple of years ago CRPF Cobras while being issued tavors and practiced on Tavors were not allowed to leave on ops with the Tavors incase they got damanged or stolen - it would make the IPS babudom look bad.

There are also a few kit MARCOS has requested for long but been denied (will not post what here)

↑
Not true, NSG train on real airliners multiple times a year at various major airports in India, the only thing is they don't have a proper plane at their training base in Mansear (although there was/is a proposal to get one).

Yes NSG does train on planes once in a while. But they need to be able to rip apart an airplane and know its inner workings. (Elevators, Cargo doors, AC vents, Engine Vents, etc etc) I know somebody proposed buying ex KF planes for scrap but not gone anywhere.


↑

Very true, dont know what the f*ck the MoD/GoI is doing sitting on this.

SOCOM is the will of the Armed Forces. Lets not just blame MOD. Hell if the Army couldnt seperated SF into a different regiment try putting them all under a new command.


↑
Not true, IN and IA both have dedicated Spec Ops rotary wing flights/SQNs (as does the IAF?) and IAF maintains dedicated Spec Ops fixed wing transports.

When i say dedicated i mean the pilots sleep / eat and piss together with the shooters. They are located on the same base. They know each other in an out and trust is built through day in and day out practice. Today the "ONLY" dedicated SOF Rotoary wing Unit is the the Army Gideon - but its still Army Aviation.

The C-130s are SpecOps marked but are still AF assets. Those pilots do a lot of stuff inbetween as well as Support SF troops.

Those PILOTS need to be treated as SOF forces and trained as such - This again is where JOINTNESS comes in.

SOF Assets are not the Planes - EW Gear, NVG , night flying etc etc. Its the Pilots

Today we only fighting within our borders with no Air Over enemy/denied land. So we dont feel the need. The day we do it maybe too late.


SFs were first to use software defined radios, now entire military is moving over to this.

Yes comms has seen an improvement but it is still the step child. And we still have a loong way to go is all i am saying.

things Will change With Time in future

budget of 20-25 odd billion is less for Army of 1.4 Million Personal And vast resources of Indian Army if you believe me

We need at least 60 billion To keep things running And Total budget 100 billion $ as whole to run MOD

If you want rapid change we have cut our numbers To at-least 2 Lakhs -3 lakhs

 

[rkhanna]

@ Warren completely agree.

But the way things are shaping up could well see a Future indian conflict being fought on 2 fronts. Absolute worst case senario? includes the proxies of the Two Fronts.

- West,
- North
- East - Bangladesh/Myanmar
- South - Sri Lanka?

this encirclement will require us to maintain the ability to put boots on the Ground.

We will also have to better train up and maintain our Central PAPs are a superior level. Outside of BSF, IMO CRPF, CISF, SSB, ITBP need to be trust with taking over internal security duties 100%.

 

[ezsasa]

Indian Air Force re-floats bid for 60 all-terrain armoured vehicles for GARUD special forces units. Only open to Indian vendors now.

 

[ezsasa]

Indian Air Force floats bid for 1,800 sub machine guns.

 

[ezsasa]

Indian Air Force floats bid for 2,000 new 9mm pistols for its GARUD special forces & other units. Open to Indian and foreign vendors.

 

[ezsasa]

Indian Air Force floats bid for 600 new-generation assault rifles (7.62mm) & 200 UBGLs for GARUD special forces units.

 

[abingdonboy]

Indian Air Force floats bid for 600 new-generation assault rifles (7.62mm) & 200 UBGLs for GARUD special forces units.

It's not going to be an AK variant.

 

[abingdonboy]

Indian Air Force re-floats bid for 60 all-terrain armoured vehicles for GARUD special forces units. Only open to Indian vendors now.

Interesting, TATA LSV vs uparmoured Mahindra AXE as the contenders?

 

[Immanuel]

Sorry bro, if this was true we would know about it. US wasn't exactly shy about giving details on the OBL mission, they made a blockbuster movie about the incident and multiple documentaries and many members of the SF team that undertook the mission wrote first hand accounts of the mission. India has never been mentioned as an aid, not even an utterance.

The Obama administration would have leaked this detail had it been true.

Sorry buddy from what I know Indian intel was key to finding him in the first place. Secondly, our role wasn't direct action but rather diversionary/logistics. Also, the speedy nature of all those accounts from various SEALs and movies are nothing but suspect, the story has been fed quite well. Keep in mind flight time from within LOC to Abotabad is around 20 mins, risking 40 mins flight time in enemy territory is a risk no one is willing to take on such a high profile mission. The LOC has many areas where Puki radar coverage is quite limited and further hampered by. Also the mission took place in UPA time which at least in the open never wanted to do or say anything that would agitate Pak. From what I hear IAF had takings to fly Mig-29s very close to certain parts of the LOC. Several F-16s were scrambled that day.

I am not clear on the details fully but I know enough to say we were involved at good measure.

 

[Immanuel]

@abingdonboy Dont take the conversation further please. Not all Immanuel said is entirely true but there is enough there that should never have been said on any public forum. Just LET IT GO NOW.

Look buddy, as said I have no business with lies, you are reacting emotionally to a situation that doesn't need any. You seem to think all things happen in a finger snap, no it doesn't.

 

[Guest]

Sorry bro, if this was true we would know about it. US wasn't exactly shy about giving details on the OBL mission, they made a blockbuster movie about the incident and multiple documentaries and many members of the SF team that undertook the mission wrote first hand accounts of the mission. India has never been mentioned as an aid, not even an utterance.

The Obama administration would have leaked this detail had it been true.

The whole point is being under the cover- they can have all their glory they deserved It-

I think we must not mistake our SF involvement to physical participation- SFs are called special for a reason

However one thing which is already out in open detail is that US, India and Israel increased their cooperation when It came to Pakistan- after Obama administration took over- or perhaps some time before that after Indo-US nuclear deal itself-

 

[ezsasa]

Interesting, TATA LSV vs uparmoured Mahindra AXE as the contenders?

Have to check the RFI, see if you can do it..

Eprocure.gov.in

 

[Immanuel]

Old news, was an issue 5 years ago but has been rectified now.

You missed my point. We RE-SET The Clock on this. My original post was talking about the SOFREP article and drawing parallels.

We went for Quantity instead of quality and are now filling the gaps. Is that the best way?

Garud's are now in expansion mode. Will we repeat mistakes? We in India have a unique ability to continue repeating mistakes.


↑
"
Somewhat true but Garuds are still young and building up their capacity bit by bit.

The Garuds have done SEAD missions in RedFlag with aplomb. But again my point got missed. IAF heirachy still is not allocating enough resources to build a strong foundation or their capability. Garuds assume the role of AFSOC and be split into units that have dedicated Roles

1. SEAD / Combat Controllers - Need to work with Regular Para's to bring up capability
2. CSAR -
3. C-Infil / Force Protection


↑
No, SF have no limitations on their training/practive.

Today an avg Army SF soldier is shooting 100 bullets a week. Their Internal requirement is for 3x that. 100 bullets a week is phenomenal - but they themselves see areas to improve.
I know atleast 1 pre-fab Shooting range requested that was turned down because of budget.

Hell till a couple of years ago CRPF Cobras while being issued tavors and practiced on Tavors were not allowed to leave on ops with the Tavors incase they got damanged or stolen - it would make the IPS babudom look bad.

There are also a few kit MARCOS has requested for long but been denied (will not post what here)

↑
Not true, NSG train on real airliners multiple times a year at various major airports in India, the only thing is they don't have a proper plane at their training base in Mansear (although there was/is a proposal to get one).

Yes NSG does train on planes once in a while. But they need to be able to rip apart an airplane and know its inner workings. (Elevators, Cargo doors, AC vents, Engine Vents, etc etc) I know somebody proposed buying ex KF planes for scrap but not gone anywhere.


↑

Very true, dont know what the f*ck the MoD/GoI is doing sitting on this.

SOCOM is the will of the Armed Forces. Lets not just blame MOD. Hell if the Army couldnt seperated SF into a different regiment try putting them all under a new command.


↑
Not true, IN and IA both have dedicated Spec Ops rotary wing flights/SQNs (as does the IAF?) and IAF maintains dedicated Spec Ops fixed wing transports.

When i say dedicated i mean the pilots sleep / eat and piss together with the shooters. They are located on the same base. They know each other in an out and trust is built through day in and day out practice. Today the "ONLY" dedicated SOF Rotoary wing Unit is the the Army Gideon - but its still Army Aviation.

The C-130s are SpecOps marked but are still AF assets. Those pilots do a lot of stuff inbetween as well as Support SF troops.

Those PILOTS need to be treated as SOF forces and trained as such - This again is where JOINTNESS comes in.

SOF Assets are not the Planes - EW Gear, NVG , night flying etc etc. Its the Pilots

Today we only fighting within our borders with no Air Over enemy/denied land. So we dont feel the need. The day we do it maybe too late.


SFs were first to use software defined radios, now entire military is moving over to this.

Yes comms has seen an improvement but it is still the step child. And we still have a loong way to go is all i am saying.

You do know that Red flag was in 2008 right? That was a long long time ago my friend. Garuds are a far more mature force now and from what I see their punishing training is getting even tougher this season. I don't think mistakes of the past will be made when it comes to expansion.

You do know that the average SF unit deployed in J&K is firing more than 100 bullets some times in an hr right? I have seen SF (Para, Marcos) and heck even police units like CISF's Ninja warriors use more than 5-6 mags of rounds in kill houses and ranges. Today firing is done daily and plenty certainly by SF. Disclaimer, I haven't been much to those ranges during UPA time, perhaps it is possible there was a time when this was true.

Shooting ranges is a big issue, agreed

SOCOM and theater commands will happen, takes time, a lot of ground rules need to be laid between the services, tis happening. We could reach an agreement before end of year. Sam goes for Comms, glad that IAF, IA and IN will have their own massive networks, I would say a couple of years would be needed for force wide implementation

 

[abingdonboy]

Have to check the RFI, see if you can do it..

Eprocure.gov.in

Quite a beast the Garuds are looking for:

3. APC details

Crew: Crew capacity min six (including driver)

Ground Clearance: Not less than 215mm when fully laden

Turning Radius: The kerb-to- kerb minimum turning radius not more than 8 metre

Payload: Not less than 550Kg

Heating, Ventilation and Air- conditioning (HVAC): Effective cooling / heating / ventilation inside the vehicle to ensure crew comfort in all atmospheric conditions (Catering to Indian conditions)

Operating Range: Not less than 350 Km on level highway

Steering: Right hand drive with power steering

Transmission: Automatic transmission with minimum four forward and one reverse gear with neutral. The transmission be either all time 4x4 or with provision to select 4x4 and 4x2 internally from the driver’s cabin.

Braking System: (i) Anti-lock Brake System (ABS) meeting CMVR norms. (ii) Parking brake incorporated with ‘Parking Brake ON’, warning. Parking brakes should hold a fully laden vehicle at a 30º gradient.

Suspension: Suitable suspension on all four wheels

Engine: The engine should have minimum life of 1,00,000 Kms and be able to operate up to 3300 mtr elevation

Max Speed: Not less than 100 kmph on level highway

Approach Angle and Departure Angle: Approach and departure angle of minimum 30º each

Firing ports: (a) Six firing ports to enable preventive fire from inside the vehicle (the location, shape and size of the port will be defined by the user) (b) Firing ports be equipped with a bullet proof glass (for protection against NIJ Level III) cover of minimum size 300mm (L) X 200mm (H), if rectangular, or minimum size 360mm (major diameter) X 240mm (minor diameter), if elliptical, which can be opened or closed only from inside.

Side Slope Capability: Not less than 15º

Length (Bumper to Bumper): Not more than 5 mtr

Width (Wall to Wall): Not more than 2.25 mtr

Height: Not more than 2.25 mtr with gunner hatch closed down excluding weapon mount, spare wheel and antenna

Weight: Un-laden weight not more than 5000 Kg

Windscreen: Should be bullet proof for protection against NIJ Level III

Driver Door Window: The driver’s door window equipped with bullet proof glass for protection against NIJ level III

Wheels: Five ‘Run Flat’ radial tubeless tyres with ability to ply minimum 5 km on level un-metalled roads on flat tyres with minimum speed of 25 kmph under maximum payload conditions.

Turret: 360º traversing mount on the roof able to mount and fire a 5.56mm LMG at elevations of 600 or more and depression of 100 or more over a 3600 arc

Gunner’s Hatch: Roof mounted with a minimum size of 0.6 m diameter equipped with foldable perimeter protection on all sides

Hatch Door: Hatch door that can be closed and bolted from inside when not required with arrangements to secure it when opened to prevent inadvertent closing

Seats: Auto folding seats with foldable foot rests not in contact with the floor of vehicle and suitable headrests. The driver and co-driver seats be equipped with bucket sliding seats and fore, aft, height and backrest angle adjustments (l) Seat Belts: Adjustable seat belts with minimum four way anchorage with provision for single handed, single buckle quick release for the front seats.

All Round Protection: Provide all round protection up to NIJ Level III (n) Bottom Blast Protection: Be able to provide protection against two hand grenade 36 M blasts (put together) directly under the vehicle

Windshield, Windows, Side and Rear Glasses: Provide protection against hits of five 7.62mm AK 47 fired from a distance of 30m

 

[Yggdrasil]

@ Warren completely agree.

But the way things are shaping up could well see a Future indian conflict being fought on 2 fronts. Absolute worst case senario? includes the proxies of the Two Fronts.

- West,
- North
- East - Bangladesh/Myanmar
- South - Sri Lanka?

this encirclement will require us to maintain the ability to put boots on the Ground.

Who is going to do this, and for what purpose? China wants Arunachal, maybe break off chicken-neck to isolate the north-east. What is it going to do beyond that?

Do you think China wants to occupy India? That would be the stupidest decision on its part. If China is going to "encircle" India to this extent, then Beijing and Shanghai will cease to exist.

Unlike Porkis, the Chinese are not suicidal.

 

[ezsasa]

Quite a beast the Garuds are looking for:

3. APC details

Crew: Crew capacity min six (including driver)

Ground Clearance: Not less than 215mm when fully laden

Turning Radius: The kerb-to- kerb minimum turning radius not more than 8 metre

Payload: Not less than 550Kg

Heating, Ventilation and Air- conditioning (HVAC): Effective cooling / heating / ventilation inside the vehicle to ensure crew comfort in all atmospheric conditions (Catering to Indian conditions)

Operating Range: Not less than 350 Km on level highway

Steering: Right hand drive with power steering

Transmission: Automatic transmission with minimum four forward and one reverse gear with neutral. The transmission be either all time 4x4 or with provision to select 4x4 and 4x2 internally from the driver’s cabin.

Braking System: (i) Anti-lock Brake System (ABS) meeting CMVR norms. (ii) Parking brake incorporated with ‘Parking Brake ON’, warning. Parking brakes should hold a fully laden vehicle at a 30º gradient.

Suspension: Suitable suspension on all four wheels

Engine: The engine should have minimum life of 1,00,000 Kms and be able to operate up to 3300 mtr elevation

Max Speed: Not less than 100 kmph on level highway

Approach Angle and Departure Angle: Approach and departure angle of minimum 30º each

Firing ports: (a) Six firing ports to enable preventive fire from inside the vehicle (the location, shape and size of the port will be defined by the user) (b) Firing ports be equipped with a bullet proof glass (for protection against NIJ Level III) cover of minimum size 300mm (L) X 200mm (H), if rectangular, or minimum size 360mm (major diameter) X 240mm (minor diameter), if elliptical, which can be opened or closed only from inside.

Side Slope Capability: Not less than 15º

Length (Bumper to Bumper): Not more than 5 mtr

Width (Wall to Wall): Not more than 2.25 mtr

Height: Not more than 2.25 mtr with gunner hatch closed down excluding weapon mount, spare wheel and antenna

Weight: Un-laden weight not more than 5000 Kg

Windscreen: Should be bullet proof for protection against NIJ Level III

Driver Door Window: The driver’s door window equipped with bullet proof glass for protection against NIJ level III

Wheels: Five ‘Run Flat’ radial tubeless tyres with ability to ply minimum 5 km on level un-metalled roads on flat tyres with minimum speed of 25 kmph under maximum payload conditions.

Turret: 360º traversing mount on the roof able to mount and fire a 5.56mm LMG at elevations of 600 or more and depression of 100 or more over a 3600 arc

Gunner’s Hatch: Roof mounted with a minimum size of 0.6 m diameter equipped with foldable perimeter protection on all sides

Hatch Door: Hatch door that can be closed and bolted from inside when not required with arrangements to secure it when opened to prevent inadvertent closing

Seats: Auto folding seats with foldable foot rests not in contact with the floor of vehicle and suitable headrests. The driver and co-driver seats be equipped with bucket sliding seats and fore, aft, height and backrest angle adjustments (l) Seat Belts: Adjustable seat belts with minimum four way anchorage with provision for single handed, single buckle quick release for the front seats.

All Round Protection: Provide all round protection up to NIJ Level III (n) Bottom Blast Protection: Be able to provide protection against two hand grenade 36 M blasts (put together) directly under the vehicle

Windshield, Windows, Side and Rear Glasses: Provide protection against hits of five 7.62mm AK 47 fired from a distance of 30m

Since the last 2 years or so, the RFI/tenders are very detailed and specific in IA and IAF. Navy's procurement documents were very specific for a long time.

Earlier RFIs used to be very open ended.

Is my observation correct?

 

[captscooby81]

Anti Aircraft Hijack Mock drill conducted in Vizag airport , MARCOS,CISF,NSG,AAI

 

[captscooby81]

Looks like Tata can simply offer the Range Rover Sentinel may be with modifications as per the requirement ..Just that it may be extremely costly purchase ...

Quite a beast the Garuds are looking for:

3. APC details

Crew: Crew capacity min six (including driver)

Ground Clearance: Not less than 215mm when fully laden

Turning Radius: The kerb-to- kerb minimum turning radius not more than 8 metre

Payload: Not less than 550Kg

Heating, Ventilation and Air- conditioning (HVAC): Effective cooling / heating / ventilation inside the vehicle to ensure crew comfort in all atmospheric conditions (Catering to Indian conditions)

Operating Range: Not less than 350 Km on level highway

Steering: Right hand drive with power steering

Transmission: Automatic transmission with minimum four forward and one reverse gear with neutral. The transmission be either all time 4x4 or with provision to select 4x4 and 4x2 internally from the driver’s cabin.

Braking System: (i) Anti-lock Brake System (ABS) meeting CMVR norms. (ii) Parking brake incorporated with ‘Parking Brake ON’, warning. Parking brakes should hold a fully laden vehicle at a 30º gradient.

Suspension: Suitable suspension on all four wheels

Engine: The engine should have minimum life of 1,00,000 Kms and be able to operate up to 3300 mtr elevation

Max Speed: Not less than 100 kmph on level highway

Approach Angle and Departure Angle: Approach and departure angle of minimum 30º each

Firing ports: (a) Six firing ports to enable preventive fire from inside the vehicle (the location, shape and size of the port will be defined by the user) (b) Firing ports be equipped with a bullet proof glass (for protection against NIJ Level III) cover of minimum size 300mm (L) X 200mm (H), if rectangular, or minimum size 360mm (major diameter) X 240mm (minor diameter), if elliptical, which can be opened or closed only from inside.

Side Slope Capability: Not less than 15º

Length (Bumper to Bumper): Not more than 5 mtr

Width (Wall to Wall): Not more than 2.25 mtr

Height: Not more than 2.25 mtr with gunner hatch closed down excluding weapon mount, spare wheel and antenna

Weight: Un-laden weight not more than 5000 Kg

Windscreen: Should be bullet proof for protection against NIJ Level III

Driver Door Window: The driver’s door window equipped with bullet proof glass for protection against NIJ level III

Wheels: Five ‘Run Flat’ radial tubeless tyres with ability to ply minimum 5 km on level un-metalled roads on flat tyres with minimum speed of 25 kmph under maximum payload conditions.

Turret: 360º traversing mount on the roof able to mount and fire a 5.56mm LMG at elevations of 600 or more and depression of 100 or more over a 3600 arc

Gunner’s Hatch: Roof mounted with a minimum size of 0.6 m diameter equipped with foldable perimeter protection on all sides

Hatch Door: Hatch door that can be closed and bolted from inside when not required with arrangements to secure it when opened to prevent inadvertent closing

Seats: Auto folding seats with foldable foot rests not in contact with the floor of vehicle and suitable headrests. The driver and co-driver seats be equipped with bucket sliding seats and fore, aft, height and backrest angle adjustments (l) Seat Belts: Adjustable seat belts with minimum four way anchorage with provision for single handed, single buckle quick release for the front seats.

All Round Protection: Provide all round protection up to NIJ Level III (n) Bottom Blast Protection: Be able to provide protection against two hand grenade 36 M blasts (put together) directly under the vehicle

Windshield, Windows, Side and Rear Glasses: Provide protection against hits of five 7.62mm AK 47 fired from a distance of 30m

 

[Crixus]

It was also in news that some Pakistani Brigadier ratted OBL out .... he sold the info to yankees ... the name was Brig Kalid is there any shred of truth in it ???

Sorry buddy from what I know Indian intel was key to finding him in the first place. Secondly, our role wasn't direct action but rather diversionary/logistics. Also, the speedy nature of all those accounts from various SEALs and movies are nothing but suspect, the story has been fed quite well. Keep in mind flight time from within LOC to Abotabad is around 20 mins, risking 40 mins flight time in enemy territory is a risk no one is willing to take on such a high profile mission. The LOC has many areas where Puki radar coverage is quite limited and further hampered by. Also the mission took place in UPA time which at least in the open never wanted to do or say anything that would agitate Pak. From what I hear IAF had takings to fly Mig-29s very close to certain parts of the LOC. Several F-16s were scrambled that day.

I am not clear on the details fully but I know enough to say we were involved at good measure.