Indian Special Forces (archived)
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TheHurtLocker
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I remember seeing these pictures quite a while ago.
Please post recent photos.
Please post recent photos.
Vinod DX9
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Last pic which force? MARS on one rifle and MARCOS don't use them , so normal VBSS? Or Sagar Prahara Bal?
Bahamut
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Normal women diver, women in India are not allowed in combat roles
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Brother,I think IWI DAN sniper rifle chambered in .338 Lapua Magnum is d best choice for us....Being of Israeli origin,it can withstand extremities nd also it is a tested platform....They have been used by d British SAS in d Middle East nd Afghanistan....So,it's definitely a proven weapon...Moreover,IWI has a Joint venture in India with Punj Lloyd which manufactures d entire lineup of its small arms here under Make in India...Why not test it in Indian conditions...Heard it is efficient nd durable...Test them on Mujahideen nd Porki Army..If successful in squashing d Graymatters of Porkies,it is our weapon.
abingdonboy
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MARCOs do use MARS for their Mp-5s and AK-103s.
Its MARCOS. think was was from an Ex with Royal Marines/SBS
You will notice that in India we fail alot of these truths alot of the time.
1. Para-SF expansion over the past decade has been extremely quick. Our "higher-ups" still think throwing tavors at somebody and they become "commandos". back in the day even the cooks in the Paras had to go through Selection. Today Selection has been condensed to the "toughest part"
2. Garuds still doing primarily Sensitive Site protection duty. Almost ZERO training as combat controllers even though that was their tasking
3. Equipment upgrade seems to keep Babudum and media happy. Not spending more money on better ranges and more bullets for practice. NSG still doesnt get REAL planes to assault but has to do with mock-ups
4. Extremely surface level co-operation between our Special Units. Joint SpecOps Command still in limbo
5. No Dedicated Aviation units.
6. Our SF units still being used as DA Elite infantry resulting in high casualty rates.
7. SF units still have shitty comms. The Raid in Myanmar was done with Comms over cellphone because Radio Transmission could be intercepted.
8. We still keep reacting and building capability.
https://sofrep.com/80411/special-operations-forces-people-not-equipment-use/
The Five Special Operations Forces Truths:
Humans are more important than hardware:This one is a no-brainer but at times gets frequently misunderstood in the public’s eye, and at times in our government’s. Operators make the equipment, not the other way around. The training and preparedness of the operator is the critical difference in mission success and failure.
The right operators, the best operators, that are highly trained and working as a team, will accomplish the mission with whatever equipment is available. On the other hand, the best equipment in the world cannot compensate for a lack of a trained force.
Quality is better than quantity:This one is especially true in Special Operations. A small, well-trained team is much more effective than a large under-or-untrained one. A quality force is a limited resource and is much preferable to conduct sensitive type operations.
Special Operations Forces cannot be mass-produced
roperly training Special Operations Forces operators and units takes years to get them to the level of proficiency that will be needed to conduct the type of missions that these units will be tasked to perform.
Then the joint integrated training within the community amongst the units takes even more time. Any attempt to shorten the process or quicken it to meet operational needs only serves to weaken the entire force as a whole.
Cookie cutter training produces cookies, not special operators. Slapping a beret on everyone’s head and calling them elite is an exercise in futility, not training a force.
Competent Special Operations Forces can’t be created after emergencies occur:The first word here is perhaps the most important. Competent. As we mentioned above, the training of the individual operators and units takes time. Here is where the commanders of the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marine SOF units have to be on top of their games.
Not only must they ensure that the force is properly trained and equipped to fight the current wars that we’re involved in, but they must be proactive rather than reactive and have the foresight to see what the next conflict [there will always be a next one] will entail and have the operators ready to take on the challenges of that one.
It requires smart, forward thinking and not reacting to events as they occur.
Most special operations require non-SOF assistance:This was one of the imperatives under Baratto that was originally left off of the list. Perhaps he and General Wayne Downing, the commander of SOCOM at the time were trying to defend their new slice of the pie without getting too much interference from the “Big Army” at the time. It isn’t known, just speculation on my part.
But Adm. Eric Olson SOCOM Commander found the final imperative
1. Para-SF expansion over the past decade has been extremely quick. Our "higher-ups" still think throwing tavors at somebody and they become "commandos". back in the day even the cooks in the Paras had to go through Selection. Today Selection has been condensed to the "toughest part"
2. Garuds still doing primarily Sensitive Site protection duty. Almost ZERO training as combat controllers even though that was their tasking
3. Equipment upgrade seems to keep Babudum and media happy. Not spending more money on better ranges and more bullets for practice. NSG still doesnt get REAL planes to assault but has to do with mock-ups
4. Extremely surface level co-operation between our Special Units. Joint SpecOps Command still in limbo
5. No Dedicated Aviation units.
6. Our SF units still being used as DA Elite infantry resulting in high casualty rates.
7. SF units still have shitty comms. The Raid in Myanmar was done with Comms over cellphone because Radio Transmission could be intercepted.
8. We still keep reacting and building capability.
https://sofrep.com/80411/special-operations-forces-people-not-equipment-use/
The Five Special Operations Forces Truths:
Humans are more important than hardware:This one is a no-brainer but at times gets frequently misunderstood in the public’s eye, and at times in our government’s. Operators make the equipment, not the other way around. The training and preparedness of the operator is the critical difference in mission success and failure.
The right operators, the best operators, that are highly trained and working as a team, will accomplish the mission with whatever equipment is available. On the other hand, the best equipment in the world cannot compensate for a lack of a trained force.
Quality is better than quantity:This one is especially true in Special Operations. A small, well-trained team is much more effective than a large under-or-untrained one. A quality force is a limited resource and is much preferable to conduct sensitive type operations.
Special Operations Forces cannot be mass-produced
roperly training Special Operations Forces operators and units takes years to get them to the level of proficiency that will be needed to conduct the type of missions that these units will be tasked to perform.Then the joint integrated training within the community amongst the units takes even more time. Any attempt to shorten the process or quicken it to meet operational needs only serves to weaken the entire force as a whole.
Cookie cutter training produces cookies, not special operators. Slapping a beret on everyone’s head and calling them elite is an exercise in futility, not training a force.
Competent Special Operations Forces can’t be created after emergencies occur:The first word here is perhaps the most important. Competent. As we mentioned above, the training of the individual operators and units takes time. Here is where the commanders of the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marine SOF units have to be on top of their games.
Not only must they ensure that the force is properly trained and equipped to fight the current wars that we’re involved in, but they must be proactive rather than reactive and have the foresight to see what the next conflict [there will always be a next one] will entail and have the operators ready to take on the challenges of that one.
It requires smart, forward thinking and not reacting to events as they occur.
Most special operations require non-SOF assistance:This was one of the imperatives under Baratto that was originally left off of the list. Perhaps he and General Wayne Downing, the commander of SOCOM at the time were trying to defend their new slice of the pie without getting too much interference from the “Big Army” at the time. It isn’t known, just speculation on my part.
But Adm. Eric Olson SOCOM Commander found the final imperative
Immanuel
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Horribly incorrect on many fronts. Parachute regiment underwent an expansion, more Airborne as well SF units were added. Training has only gotten tougher with plenty of cross training in various roles.
Garuds have minor distinctions within roles. New Garuds are part of Quick reaction teams guarding sensitive installations, they are also sent out during hot extractions in Maoist areas. They have been involved in many such hot rescues, for some reason their work over there is kept classified. It is also a bullshit myth that they aren't trained for combat controlling, busting enemy air defenses, land based EW and going after strategic targets is part of their key mission and there are teams ready to move on the word when needed. They are also among the most well equipped today.
Jointness will only happen with a massive change in the way the 3 services work, unified command will happen once the roles, differentiation and other things become clearer.
SF units being used as part of Ops in Kashmir is fine. A blade is only sharp when honed frequently.
Shitty comms partly untrue, raid in myanmar had us going against rebels well equipped courtesy of china, they have very modern comms interception equipment, often better so than Pak regulars and SF units. One of the major objectives of the raid was also destroy this equipment. These rebels used sophisticated jamming equipment when they ambushed our soldiers. Success in combat demands flexbility and ability to adapt. Conducting raids over cellphones was actually brilliant in this case. There was a grand exercise a few years back when a Carrier group was sunk catastrophically just by the red force using old fashion morse to communicate.
NSG and others getting their own SF aviation units as said will take time but will happen as part of the frame work that is being worked on now.
Actually no. I am not too far off. Over the past 2-3 months i was forced to return to Jabalpur to help my grandparents out with some legal stuff and got spent sometime with Ex soldiers and a couple Ex Para-Cdos who are still clued into regimental politics.
1. Expansion - Paras were converted with over 80%+ being retained in SF role
2. A few years ago A Para bn Co has gone on record to the Regiment saying that we deserve as much "special pay" as the SF as there is no difference. The politics agreed and relented.
The Original Selection is now only 3 months. While many argue that the primary selection processes has been retained and there has been no compromise, many a old timer has stated that there was a reason why it was longer which has been lost in translation. Like i was told. Even the cooks ran selection.
3.No, what i said about Garud is fact. Even Garud higher command are getting frustrated. Doing Security duty and CSAR is not enough. Their Charter calls for Combat Contollers and SEAD and their training is severely LACKING in these areas. Its not a question of myth or not. The powers that be in IAF HQ simply are not allocating enough resources towards this training.
4. Your comment on "Jointness" is hyperbolic mental masturbation. Simply the conventional forces have seen how the world Perceives SOF forces and are unwilling to relinquish their importance in the ORBAT. result no SOCOM. Instead of viewing SOF units as strategic tools they still get only Tactical missions. Which is a gross Neglect on our part.
5. SF units being part of kashmir ops is actually fine BUT if everytime you have 2/3 terrorist in an urban setting and you are calling in SF after spending 6-7 hours doing S&C then What are RR and J&K SOG and Infantry Ghatak there for then? What is their level of competence. Para SF is more often than not being called in for CT action. There are 100 other things Para's should be doing (and are) but these pointless low priority DA missions are only tactical, cost lives and make Area's CO look good nothing more. Like Goswami who did 3-4 back to back ops in a week and had 11 kills in 10 days and died on the last op. What was the point? SF soldiers take alot of money and time to build up. they dont grow on trees. What was the strategic output of Loosing Goswami?
- Just like Kargil. SF is now again relegated to Elite Infantry.
- Ironically our SF when attached to TSD was actually doing what SOF are supposed to do and the insurgency had been at an all time low. All this before Sonia Gandhi shut them down.
6. No . Shitty comms are shitty comms. If in a middle of a hostile zone you cant secure your satcom even to call home to give a SITREP you equipmnt orbat has a MASSIVE Issue. You think US Forces in Syria cant use their comms because Russians are in the same AO?
7. On aviation Assets and SOCOM - unfortunately there is no time frame what i know. Its all talk.
Anyways my previous post started with pointing to the article from Sofrep and doing a quick compare of our current state of affairs.
Honestly our SOF have been falling between two stools for way too long and they continue to die pointlessly.
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Immanuel
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Original selection has been just as tough or even tougher, sure in the past it took slightly longer but since the training now is tougher it takes shorter time to find out who has what it takes to continue, the complete training duration has increased to well over 3-4 years. Sure initially some units were hurriedly converted but they eventually had to undergo plenty of retraining.
Garud higher command has nothing to say but to ask for more, I have worked with the Garuds as recently as last month, they are very well trained for SEAD, Combat control, absolute nonsense that training is lacking in these areas. Since they are deployed at all major air bases, numbers had to be incrased and therefore another 1200 or so will be raised. DSC will have better training and equipment to cater to base protection duties and more companies will be raised. Not sure where you're getting this nonsense from. They are a combat proven unit and are being used currently as we speak far beyond our borders as well.
All this yada yada about jointness is not needed, it is long term effort that needs plenty of rethinking and all services needed to be re-organized. There have been a lot of clandestine meetings on this lately and I can tell you things are moving in the right direction. SOCOM is merely one branch within this whole discussion of Theater Commands.
Also quite ridiculous to keep thinking that SF is called in every time some pigs show up. Most of the kill work in Kashmir is done by RR, Ghataks and they run plenty of ops. SF is called in when they are with in a short distance and/or is HVTs are known to be present in the area. Let me ask you this, what is the strategic value of Goswami sitting in Agra waiting to combat free fall into enemy lines. You demonstrate little understanding on what really happens. Surgical strikes, cross border raids are done almost monthly.
Shitty comms are a myth so stop bullshittting, we are using the most modern in SDRs. Let me clarify, the Myanmar raid was most importantly a kill mission against a PLA covert unit working with the rebels. This PLA unit was involved in the planning and execution of the ambush which was a clever hit. During the Ambush, lot of the surviving soldiers reported severe comms failure, clearly they were jammed. After some recon on the rebel held areas, they were shocked to find the PLA had set-up a state of the art mobile comms station and some HVTs of the PLA's covert wing and rebel leaders were in the area, in order to save time, the operation was green-lit quite quickly. Let me spill the beans a bit more, actually a small squad of Garuds were tasked with taking out the PLA listening station while the Paras focused on the rebels.They ended-up killing over a 100 pigs including militants, mid ranking PLA intel folks. There is a reason why no matter how good your comms it routinely happens that comms are breached, both the Russians and the Americans do it to each other everyday in Syria. We do it with Pak and they do it with us. The reason we used cell phones for the ops was since the regular comms were used as a diversion in case they were listening. This happens very often. Success in combat demands deceptions. US, UK or many other SF units are dumbfounded when they discover the kind of tactics/mind games we bring to the table, makes these folk look like novices who just love to sling down helos, go in fuck shit up and come out; Our guys give raids nice new dimensions of meanings to a text book execution. The Myanmar Op was a big set back for PLA's covert unit which is now back to arming and funding Maoists and others instead of direct involvement as they were trying back them.
"Original selection has been just as tough or even tougher, sure in the past it took slightly longer but since the training now is tougher it takes shorter time to find out who has what it takes to continue, the complete training duration has increased to well over 3-4 years. Sure initially some units were hurriedly converted but they eventually had to undergo plenty of retraining."
1. Training in the Para's NEVER stops. Its one school after the other, Incountry or in a foriegn country.
2. Para-SF today have a lesser average age than they did in the 90s. That should tell you something.
"Garud higher command has nothing to say but to ask for more, I have worked with the Garuds as recently as last month, they are very well trained for SEAD, Combat control, absolute nonsense that training is lacking in these areas. Since they are deployed at all major air bases, numbers had to be incrased and therefore another 1200 or so will be raised. DSC will have better training and equipment to cater to base protection duties and more companies will be raised. Not sure where you're getting this nonsense from. They are a combat proven unit and are being used currently as we speak far beyond our borders as well. "
1. Unfortunately I am saying the same thing. I have heard what i am saying from the HORSES mouth. Their SEAD training is limited. AF is not giving them the ranges to practice. and Combat Contollers? They needed to learn to imbedd with Army units to act as Combat Controllers. They cant act isolation. This training so far has been Rudimentary.
2. Deploying them en-mass in bases proves my point of AF Brass not hvaing a clue on deploying SOF Resources.
Quick fix for everything has become SF. Anything else is a BS Excuse.
"All this yada yada about jointness is not needed, it is long term effort that needs plenty of rethinking and all services needed to be re-organized. There have been a lot of clandestine meetings on this lately and I can tell you things are moving in the right direction. SOCOM is merely one branch within this whole discussion of Theater Commands.
"
Sorry but Jointness has been in the thinking since the end of Kargil. Thats a decade and a half. Anything on the matter is excuses. Our Generals have become politicans and are protecting their turf. Simple.
Everybody has read the new "2017" Mision plan from MOD. With a lot of snickers. SOCOM will be last on the last.
And about jointness not being Needed. I am sorry. Almost EVERY major power has a Joint SOF command integrated with Aviation Assets and Intelligence Grid. The benefits and reasons for that are simply not deniable.
"Also quite ridiculous to keep thinking that SF is called in every time some pigs show up. Most of the kill work in Kashmir is done by RR, Ghataks and they run plenty of ops. SF is called in when they are with in a short distance and/or is HVTs are known to be present in the area. Let me ask you this, what is the strategic value of Goswami sitting in Agra waiting to combat free fall into enemy lines. You demonstrate little understanding on what really happens. Surgical strikes, cross border raids are done almost monthly. "
Sorry. Look at last 12 months Casualty reports of SF. It is all simple Tactical Maneuvering for as you put it "some pigs". If it walks like a duck, looks like duck ....
Strategic value of Goswami in Agra is that he is alive.
Also you didnt read what i said completely. The Goswamnis of the world have always been in J&K. They did CTR deep inside POK, They did Raids outside the public eye inside and across the border for TSD. They operated alongside Ikhawanis giving india STRATEGIC gains in the fight against terorrism.
Shitty comms are a myth so stop bullshittting, we are using the most modern in SDRs. Let me clarify, the Myanmar raid was most importantly a kill mission against a PLA covert unit working with the rebels. This PLA unit was involved in the planning and execution of the ambush which was a clever hit. During the Ambush, lot of the surviving soldiers reported severe comms failure, clearly they were jammed. Afte
Wrong. We can hide under a blanket and pretend everything is hungydory and then a 26/11 happens and everybody goes on about how badly the NSG is equiped. This is someting every member on BR and other def forums did. "Our SF are fine you dont know anything attitude is getting operators killed" We are doing the same here. Refusing to even acknowledge a gap exists.
Also the OP from INfil (i.e from initial planning) required ZERO Comm but Indian Cellphones. If our commes failed its because Our Comms like our optics are 2 generations old. And THATS the fact. Opfor has superior EW assets then we do.
So excuses like PLA state of the art, etc etc are BS. because our State of the Art is still playing catch up to everybody.
As a family member recently told me. The Single most powerful weapon in a SF soldiers arsenal is his radio. Its NOT fancy gear. Its bread and butter.
Lastly - What i am saying is that our SF are falling between stools of a Civilan Bureaucracy that doesnt understand them and Conventional Military Leadership that is playing politics with them. And that will continue to hurt us in the long run.
As an example Just look at the toll taken on our Submarine Arm from neglect from all quarters.
PS on the PLA angle. unfortantely cant respond as i dont know. But if you ever in the Bombay Area we can have a beer and compare notes
1. Training in the Para's NEVER stops. Its one school after the other, Incountry or in a foriegn country.
2. Para-SF today have a lesser average age than they did in the 90s. That should tell you something.
"Garud higher command has nothing to say but to ask for more, I have worked with the Garuds as recently as last month, they are very well trained for SEAD, Combat control, absolute nonsense that training is lacking in these areas. Since they are deployed at all major air bases, numbers had to be incrased and therefore another 1200 or so will be raised. DSC will have better training and equipment to cater to base protection duties and more companies will be raised. Not sure where you're getting this nonsense from. They are a combat proven unit and are being used currently as we speak far beyond our borders as well. "
1. Unfortunately I am saying the same thing. I have heard what i am saying from the HORSES mouth. Their SEAD training is limited. AF is not giving them the ranges to practice. and Combat Contollers? They needed to learn to imbedd with Army units to act as Combat Controllers. They cant act isolation. This training so far has been Rudimentary.
2. Deploying them en-mass in bases proves my point of AF Brass not hvaing a clue on deploying SOF Resources.
Quick fix for everything has become SF. Anything else is a BS Excuse.
"All this yada yada about jointness is not needed, it is long term effort that needs plenty of rethinking and all services needed to be re-organized. There have been a lot of clandestine meetings on this lately and I can tell you things are moving in the right direction. SOCOM is merely one branch within this whole discussion of Theater Commands.
"
Sorry but Jointness has been in the thinking since the end of Kargil. Thats a decade and a half. Anything on the matter is excuses. Our Generals have become politicans and are protecting their turf. Simple.
Everybody has read the new "2017" Mision plan from MOD. With a lot of snickers. SOCOM will be last on the last.
And about jointness not being Needed. I am sorry. Almost EVERY major power has a Joint SOF command integrated with Aviation Assets and Intelligence Grid. The benefits and reasons for that are simply not deniable.
"Also quite ridiculous to keep thinking that SF is called in every time some pigs show up. Most of the kill work in Kashmir is done by RR, Ghataks and they run plenty of ops. SF is called in when they are with in a short distance and/or is HVTs are known to be present in the area. Let me ask you this, what is the strategic value of Goswami sitting in Agra waiting to combat free fall into enemy lines. You demonstrate little understanding on what really happens. Surgical strikes, cross border raids are done almost monthly. "
Sorry. Look at last 12 months Casualty reports of SF. It is all simple Tactical Maneuvering for as you put it "some pigs". If it walks like a duck, looks like duck ....
Strategic value of Goswami in Agra is that he is alive.
Also you didnt read what i said completely. The Goswamnis of the world have always been in J&K. They did CTR deep inside POK, They did Raids outside the public eye inside and across the border for TSD. They operated alongside Ikhawanis giving india STRATEGIC gains in the fight against terorrism.
Shitty comms are a myth so stop bullshittting, we are using the most modern in SDRs. Let me clarify, the Myanmar raid was most importantly a kill mission against a PLA covert unit working with the rebels. This PLA unit was involved in the planning and execution of the ambush which was a clever hit. During the Ambush, lot of the surviving soldiers reported severe comms failure, clearly they were jammed. Afte
Wrong. We can hide under a blanket and pretend everything is hungydory and then a 26/11 happens and everybody goes on about how badly the NSG is equiped. This is someting every member on BR and other def forums did. "Our SF are fine you dont know anything attitude is getting operators killed" We are doing the same here. Refusing to even acknowledge a gap exists.
Also the OP from INfil (i.e from initial planning) required ZERO Comm but Indian Cellphones. If our commes failed its because Our Comms like our optics are 2 generations old. And THATS the fact. Opfor has superior EW assets then we do.
So excuses like PLA state of the art, etc etc are BS. because our State of the Art is still playing catch up to everybody.
As a family member recently told me. The Single most powerful weapon in a SF soldiers arsenal is his radio. Its NOT fancy gear. Its bread and butter.
Lastly - What i am saying is that our SF are falling between stools of a Civilan Bureaucracy that doesnt understand them and Conventional Military Leadership that is playing politics with them. And that will continue to hurt us in the long run.
As an example Just look at the toll taken on our Submarine Arm from neglect from all quarters.
PS on the PLA angle. unfortantely cant respond as i dont know. But if you ever in the Bombay Area we can have a beer and compare notes
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