Indian Ocean Developments

[SammyCheung]

You have the money. But, you don't have the expertise. Give it another decade, you will see your country changing when it comes to military technology. Had Tiananmen Square never happened China would have had a much more capable military by now.

In our case, our exposure with Israeli technology has helped a lot. The Israelis built a much more capable system than the Greenpine in India in early 2000. Our BMD is based on that technology. Right now, the Swordfish(our Greenpine) can track 200 targets at a range of 600km. And this is not some CCP BS. Perhaps our new radar will be a derivative of the Swordfish for our AWACS(speculation). We got the capability to build the Swordfish from scratch in early 2004.

Right now, the IN has given specifications to our shipyards to build stealth ships that are of similar or greater capability than current European stealth ships like the La fayette and also to employ modular construction.

Technology is not some kind of simple formula you can "give" to somebody. Instead, what India is doing is mere assembly. The key components are still made elsewhere.

Take for example radars. India simply assembles components. T/R modules are not manufactured in India. Why? Because you need fabs plants. Fabs don't materialize out of thin air. And Israel can't / didn't build it for you. You also need mass production to get economies of scale.


In a way, it's like the difference between teaching somebody how to lift weights versus going to the gym and actually lifting weights.

Sure Israel can teach you on paper. But to actually do it yourself means you need an industrial base. Sometimes, even a tiny component will require an entire factory to produce it economically. You need engineers, supervisors, skilled workers, managers with experience... Israel can't give you these things.

Modern military gear don't materialize out of thin air. You need heavy industrial technology. You need robotics to automate production. You need machine tooling. This is the kind of stuff that Germany and Japan excel in. China is making strides in this field.


This is the difference between China and India. This is why China can reverse engineer and manufacture.

 

[SammyCheung]

China must recognize that acoustic liabilities hampered Soviet SSBNs' effectiveness, so there is reason to believe that it has worked to address these issues. A variety of evidence—including Chinese research on acoustics, sound isolation couplings, and advanced composite materials; development of a relatively advanced guide-vane propeller by the late 1990s; and employment of advanced seven-blade propellers with cruciform vortex dissipaters in both its indigenous Song-class and imported Kilo-class diesel-powered submarines—suggests that the Jin may have significantly improved propellers and other quieting technology.

As pointed out by this article, the latest Chinese subs have advanced quieting technology. China also covers subs with anechoic tiles. The Jin-class SSBN entered service in 2006-2007.

 

[p2prada]

Technology is not some kind of simple formula you can "give" to somebody. Instead, what India is doing is mere assembly. The key components are still made elsewhere.

The key components are being made in India for the Swordfish. That's why we have a BMD system based on it.

Take for example radars. India simply assembles components. T/R modules are not manufactured in India. Why? Because you need fabs plants. Fabs don't materialize out of thin air. And Israel can't / didn't build it for you. You also need mass production to get economies of scale.

We have Fab plants. You are talking about Processor plants that need huge investment. Transistor plants are different and there are many in India. My college lecturer was working in an industrial fab plant for 10 years before he came to teach.

In a way, it's like the difference between teaching somebody how to lift weights versus going to the gym and actually lifting weights.

Unfortunately for you, we are doing heavy lifting and are all buffed up too.

Sure Israel can teach you on paper. But to actually do it yourself means you need an industrial base. Sometimes, even a tiny component will require an entire factory to produce it economically. You need engineers, supervisors, skilled workers, managers with experience... Israel can't give you these things.

No paper matey. They built 2 in India with their own equipment. Then they transferred technology for the T/R Modules etc. Everything is being built in India now.

You need engineers, supervisors, skilled workers, managers with experience... Israel can't give you these things.

We have CONGLOMERATES in our country you........... Some of the richest people in the world are Indians. Do you know what that means.

Private companies like TATA is involved in the Airforce Network Project and they have struck deals with Lockheed Martin for electronics development.

Modern military gear don't materialize out of thin air. You need heavy industrial technology. You need robotics to automate production. You need machine tooling. This is the kind of stuff that Germany and Japan excel in. China is making strides in this field.

And we have it matey. And why on earth do we need automatic production.

Take a look at the richest people on the planet.
The Top 10 Richest People On The World - Session Magazine

Read No. 8,6, and 5. All Indians. Funny how a third world country have three people in the top 10 rich list even after the movie Slumdog Millionaire.

No. 4 is also an Indian but based in Europe. You have heard of Arcelor Mittal right.

No. 8:Kushal Pal Singh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
No. 6:Anil Ambani - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
No. 5:Mukesh Ambani - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oh! More importantly. The Numbers 6 and 5 are brothers. Their combined income as a family is obviously big.

List of companies owned by Indians which are some really large companies.

Tata Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Tata also owns the super computer Eka. Guess what. Eka is the only computer in the world that belonged to a private company and also hit the top 10 list of the fastest supercomputers. And guess what! It is primarily a military computer. A private industry has no need for it.

Reliance Industries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Reliance Anil Dhirubhai Ambani Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Aditya Birla Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mahindra Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Godrej Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This company builds Rocket engines for ISRO's PSLV series of rockets.

Larsen & Toubro - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This company is currently building hulls for our SSBN and are vying for Scorpene Contracts for the Indian Navy.

There are a million other such big ticket companies that you will keep seeing in the newspaper if you keep your eyes open for it matey. Read up on them.

This is the difference between China and India. This is why China can reverse engineer and manufacture.

China is the only country that reverse engineers and manufactures after breaking a thousand infringement laws. Your country is literally a pariah state when it comes to military technology even after being in the Security council. What a joke!

This is the difference between India and China. Come back after your small private companies do 10% of the work that the companies I mentioned do in the field of defence.

Oh! Guess what! I never even talked about our Govt owned companies.

The Airbus A-380 Cargo version's electrical wiring was entirely designed in India using Indian engineers. Airbus also bought a software called Autolay which is used to design composites. Courtesy:HAL.

So, don't talk to me what we can do and what we cannot. You guys are like kids when it comes to managerial skills compared to us Indians.

 

[Daredevil]

As pointed out by this article, the latest Chinese subs have advanced quieting technology. China also covers subs with anechoic tiles. The Jin-class SSBN entered service in 2006-2007.

The more quiet your subs become, the more sensitive sonars will be developed, the game of run and chase keeps on continuing mate. Never rest on your laurels.

 

[SammyCheung]

No you do not make every key component in India. That's why you have to import it. This is obvious just based on India's level of industrialization. Please provide source for your claim that Israel built you two manufacturing plants and you are making T/R modules in them.

Yes transmit receive modules are fabricated, not just processors. India doesn't manufacture civilian electronic commodities.

There is no comparison at all between manufacturing capacity of China and India -- especially heavy industry. I can pull up dozens of sources on this if you want. It's very well documented fact.

Despite your list of India firms, they pale in comparison to international heavyweights:

Largest conglomerates in the world

General Electric Company United States 141,900
China Pacific Insurance (Group) Co., Ltd. China 31,301
Jardine Matheson Holdings Ltd. Bermuda 17,971
Swire Pacific Ltd. Hong Kong 16,900
Industries Qatar Q.S.C. Qatar 15,953
Groupe Bruxelles Lambert SA Belgium 12,298
Qinghai Salt Lake Industry Group Co.,Ltd. China 11,891
China Resources Power Holdings Company Ltd. Hong Kong 10,899
Itochu Corporation Japan 10,189
Kingdom Holding Company Saudi Arabia 7,980
Marubeni Corporation Japan 7,971
Jaiprakash Associates Ltd India 6,867
Mitsubishi Chemical Holdings Corporation Japan 6,145
Genting Berhad Malaysia 5,869
Hana Financial Group Inc South Korea 5,852
CNP - Compagnie Nationale ? Portefeuille Belgium 5,348
Grupo De Inversiones Suramericana SA Colombia 4,807
Koc Holding AS Turkey 4,421
Enterprise GP Holdings LP United States 4,098
Exor SpA Italy 4,050
SM Investments Corp Philippines 3,821
Fukuoka Financial Group, Inc. Japan 3,735
Savola Group Company Saudi Arabia 3,346
Corporacion Financiera Alba, S.A. Spain 3,180
MEIJI Holdings Co.,Ltd. Japan 3,075
Unipol Gruppo Finanziario S.p.A. Italy 2,992
J. FRONT RETAILING Co., Ltd. Japan 2,932
Rentokil Initial plc United Kingdom 2,896
Nippon Paper Group Inc. Japan 2,877
Affiliated Managers Group, Inc. United States 2,725
Impulsora del Desarrollo y el Empleo en America Latina SAB de CV Mexico 2,538
Janus Capital Group, Inc. United States 2,488
China Yurun Food Group Ltd Bermuda 2,422
ASM Pacific Technology Ltd. Hong Kong 2,402
Ackermans & van Haaren N.V. Belgium 2,326
Mexichem, S.A. de C.V. Mexico 2,115
Alfresa Holdings Corporation Japan 2,103
MMC Corporation Berhad Malaysia 2,090
Daewoo International Corporation South Korea 2,041
National Industries Group (Holding) Kuwait 1,931
Holding MRSK Russia 1,899
Astro All Asia Network Plc Malaysia 1,890
Shun Tak Holdings Ltd. Hong Kong 1,849
Discount Investment Corporation Ltd. Israel 1,827
Lee & Man Paper Manufacturing Ltd Hong Kong 1,788
TAM SA Brazil 1,787
IT Holdings Corp. Japan 1,713
Solvac S.A. Belgium 1,711
Hargreaves Lansdown Plc United Kingdom 1,696
Santander Chile Holding S.A. Chile 1,569
Telefonica Moviles Peru Holdings S.A. Peru 1,543
Charter International plc Republic of Ireland 1,542
Financiere De Lodet SA France 1,523
Advanced Technology & Materials Co., Ltd. China 1,495
Xinyi Glass Holdings Ltd Hong Kong 1,470
FFP - Ste Fonciere Financiere & Part France 1,431
Compagnie Industriali Riunite (CIR) Italy 1,416
Compagnie du Cambodge S.A. France 1,351
Koor Industries, Ltd. Israel 1,325
Vector Limited New Zealand 1,323
Doosan Corporation Ltd. South Korea 1,303
Baoviet Holdings Vietnam 1,287
Alliance Holdings GP L.P. United States 1,274
Maire Tecnimont S.p.A. Italy 1,266
Energisa S.A. Brazil 1,224
Britvic PLC United Kingdom 1,218
Liberty Acquisition Holdings Corp. United States 1,192
Shanghai Shenhua Holdings Company Ltd China 1,163
G-Resources Group Limited Hong Kong 1,162
Jonjee Hi-Tech Industrial And Commercial Holding Co., Ltd. China 1,146
Trian Acquisition I Corp. United States 1,116
Exterran Holdings Inc. United States 1,086
Magnesita Refratarios SA Brazil 1,082
Yazicilar Holding A.S. Turkey 1,055
DCM Japan Holdings Co Ltd Japan 1,048
Pick 'n Pay Holdings Ltd. South Africa 1,043
LSR Group Russia 1,036
Zhejiang Zhongda Group Co., Ltd. China 992
Sapphire Industrials Corp. United States 984
Telling Telecom Holding Co., Ltd China 981
Tekfen Holding A S Turkey 954
Dongguan Development (Holdings) Co Ltd China 953
Eon Capital BHD Malaysia 946
Malaysian Bulk Carriers Berhad Malaysia 904
Wellstream Holdings PLC United Kingdom 900
KBC Ancora SCA Belgium 897
Jingtou Yintai Co., Ltd China 860
Poulina Group Holding SA Tunisia 841
Shanghai Qiangsheng Holdings Co Ltd China 827
Santos Brasil Participacoes SA Brazil 818
Kim Eng Holdings Limited Singapore 806
Wasion Group Holdings Limited Hong Kong 788
Hosken Consolidated Investments Ltd. South Africa 774
Pacific Corp South Korea 764
John Keells Holdings PLC Sri Lanka 735
BAM Investments Corp Canada 718
Kardan N.V Netherlands 716
Nan Hai Corporation Ltd. Hong Kong 709
COSCO International Holdings Limited Hong Kong 704
OM Holdings Ltd Bermuda 691



When it comes to defense industry, the comparison is even more dramatic! All the so-called "Indian defense firms" you can list are just suppliers of minor components. Like the Air Bus (software) example you gave. China fabricates wing control surfaces for Air Bus too. It's not surprising that multinationals would have Indian companies in mind for some specific thing like a piece of software. Let's not try to depict it like India all of a sudden is doing this on its own when in fact it's totally reliant on its foreign corp.

Can you name an Indian defense company that has developed and manufactured equipment already deployed? There is only one: HAL.

Consider this, China spends more than 2x more on defense than India even while India imports its arms. Though you think India is doing well, China's industrial base is far larger.

The key components are being made in India for the Swordfish. That's why we have a BMD system based on it.



We have Fab plants. You are talking about Processor plants that need huge investment. Transistor plants are different and there are many in India. My college lecturer was working in an industrial fab plant for 10 years before he came to teach.



Unfortunately for you, we are doing heavy lifting and are all buffed up too.



No paper matey. They built 2 in India with their own equipment. Then they transferred technology for the T/R Modules etc. Everything is being built in India now.



We have CONGLOMERATES in our country you........... Some of the richest people in the world are Indians. Do you know what that means.

Private companies like TATA is involved in the Airforce Network Project and they have struck deals with Lockheed Martin for electronics development.



And we have it matey. And why on earth do we need automatic production.

Take a look at the richest people on the planet.
The Top 10 Richest People On The World - Session Magazine

Read No. 8,6, and 5. All Indians. Funny how a third world country have three people in the top 10 rich list even after the movie Slumdog Millionaire.

No. 4 is also an Indian but based in Europe. You have heard of Arcelor Mittal right.

No. 8:Kushal Pal Singh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
No. 6:Anil Ambani - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
No. 5:Mukesh Ambani - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oh! More importantly. The Numbers 6 and 5 are brothers. Their combined income as a family is obviously big.

List of companies owned by Indians which are some really large companies.

Tata Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Tata also owns the super computer Eka. Guess what. Eka is the only computer in the world that belonged to a private company and also hit the top 10 list of the fastest supercomputers. And guess what! It is primarily a military computer. A private industry has no need for it.

Reliance Industries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Reliance Anil Dhirubhai Ambani Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Aditya Birla Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mahindra Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Godrej Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This company builds Rocket engines for ISRO's PSLV series of rockets.

Larsen & Toubro - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This company is currently building hulls for our SSBN and are vying for Scorpene Contracts for the Indian Navy.

There are a million other such big ticket companies that you will keep seeing in the newspaper if you keep your eyes open for it matey. Read up on them.



China is the only country that reverse engineers and manufactures after breaking a thousand infringement laws. Your country is literally a pariah state when it comes to military technology even after being in the Security council. What a joke!

This is the difference between India and China. Come back after your small private companies do 10% of the work that the companies I mentioned do in the field of defence.

Oh! Guess what! I never even talked about our Govt owned companies.

The Airbus A-380 Cargo version's electrical wiring was entirely designed in India using Indian engineers. Airbus also bought a software called Autolay which is used to design composites. Courtesy:HAL.

So, don't talk to me what we can do and what we cannot. You guys are like kids when it comes to managerial skills compared to us Indians.

 

[Daredevil]

^^Sammy give the link to your above list. It looks like you got it from some third rate magazine. None of the companies in the list make sense. What criteria was used to rank them. Give the links.

 

[SammyCheung]

The more quiet your subs become, the more sensitive sonars will be developed, the game of run and chase keeps on continuing mate. Never rest on your laurels.

Yes of course, China is developing Type 095 SSN, which is said to launch for sea testing by 2010. As the other China poster said, it will have pumpjet.

 

[SammyCheung]

^^Sammy give the link to your above list. It looks like you got it from some third rate magazine. None of the companies in the list make sense. What criteria was used to rank them. Give the links.

It's from a business consulting company's website. I didn't save the link but here's Global 500

Global 500 2009: Global 500 1-100 - FORTUNE on CNNMoney.com

As you can see three out of top 15 largest companies are Chinese. I'm not even sure where Indian companies appear on that list.

 

[Adux]

What are you talking about? The PLAN has nine nuclear SSNs & SSBNs and 1 AIP sub ALREADY in operation. Even the Arihant is THREE years away from being fielded!!

What AIP sub? That is still in the works, Those Nuke subs will create problems to none than themselves. You are a japanese, sad you cant see the real power of the Chinese, that is their doctrinal experimentation, that is the threat not their below par, I mean really below par weapons. Do you know the patrol capacity of PLAN, I kid you not, they pale in comparison to that of Indian Navy

 

[SammyCheung]

What AIP sub? That is still in the works, Those Nuke subs will create problems to none than themselves. You are a japanese, sad you cant see the real power of the Chinese, that is their doctrinal experimentation, that is the threat not their below par, I mean really below par weapons. Do you know the patrol capacity of PLAN, I kid you not, they pale in comparison to that of Indian Navy

Wrong again! China's first AIP was launched in 2004

The Type 039A/B, codenamed Yuan Class by the NATO, is a new type of non-nuclear submarine introduced by the PLA Navy in 2004. The submarine was built by Wuchang Shipyard in the inland Hubei Province. The Type 039A is reportedly China’s first submarine to be incorporated with an advanced air-independent propulsion (AIP) system, which enhances the submarine’s underwater performance and reduce its vulnerability to detention.

Type 039A/B (Yuan Class) Diesel-Electric Submarine - SinoDefence.com

Now China is retrofitting AIP to the Songs too.

LOL... of course we patrol, we have replenishment vessels. Do you?

 

[Daredevil]

It's from a business consulting company's website. I didn't save the link but here's Global 500

Global 500 2009: Global 500 1-100 - FORTUNE on CNNMoney.com

As you can see three out of top 15 largest companies are Chinese. I'm not even sure where Indian companies appear on that list.

Aahh..there you see, I knew it was from some third rate magazine and you had to back track when I asked for links.

Your economy is big and you had head start of 20 years, so you definitely see more Chinese companies than India.

But show me individual private companies from China that are in top 500, not the chinese govt. supported public companies (and also not from Hong Kong, it is all together a different case).

 

[Sabir]

Any information on ASW capabilities of India and China?

BTW the report I am posting will be a good read. on the base of it we can discuss ASW need of India.



The ‘Rise’ of Chinese Submarine Warfare Capability:

by: Cdr Gurpreet S Khurana

11/17/2008



The rapid growth of China’s sub-surface naval warfare capability has become highly conspicuous in recent years. The induction rate of new-generation submarines in the PLA Navy has been accelerating. Representing a trend unprecedented in the history of naval warfare, four different classes of submarines – Song, Yuan (both diesel), Shang (SSN) and Jin (SSBN) – are under construction simultaneously in various Chinese shipyards. An observer aptly remarks, “the Chinese are churning-out submarines like sausages”. These submarines are being armed with the most potent underwater weapons available in the world today. These include torpedoes with wake-homing capability, or twin-axis wire-guidance feature, or super-cavitating underwater speed; sea-mines that may be rocket-propelled, or integrated with long-range torpedoes, or capable of being laid in deep waters that were hitherto considered ‘un-minable’; long-range sea-skimming anti-ship missiles capable of submerged launch and incorporating modern features to evade enemy electronic counter measures (ECM); submarine-launched land-attack cruise missiles (LACM) with satellite-based guidance features as advanced as the US Tomahawk; and the long-range submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBM). Furthermore, the organisational ‘centre-of-gravity’ of China’s naval power is clearly shifting southwards towards the South China Sea and Indian Ocean. This is evidenced by the revelations of its new underground submarine base at Hainan Island in a report released by Jane’s in April 2008. The satellite pictures supporting the report indicated the enormity of the acreage allocated to the base, which was estimated to be large enough to berth up to 20 submarines. The pictures also revealed a Jin-class SSBN docked at the base.

China’s foremost strategic priorities currently lie in the western Pacific. However, considering the adversarial potential of China-India relations, its increasing ‘long-legged’ underwater warfare capability is accompanied with major security ramifications for India. The imminent challenge calls for an appropriate policy response from New Delhi. This would essentially incorporate a plethora of politico-diplomatic measures and augmentation/re-orientation of India’s naval capabilities. It may be expected (and hoped) that the confidence-building and deterrence elements of this ‘two-pronged’ approach would address India’s insecurity. However, the second ‘prong’ may be necessary in the worst-case scenario, i.e. if deterrence fails.

A long lead-time is necessary to reform a navy’s force structure or its technological capabilities. This reality is of particular relevance for India, considering that hitherto, its naval strategy formulation has never encountered a maritime-security challenge posed by a potential adversary operating nuclear submarines, and the fact that the threat is likely to manifest first off India’s eastern (and not the western) seaboard. In this direction, the following suggests an Indian response to the potential Chinese submarine threat.

Navy’s Doctrinal/Force Reconfiguration
Reorient anti-submarine warfare (ASW) operations from its present platform-centric configuration to one based on information network. The network would also need to receive inputs from off-board sensors, which could be more suitably deployed in restricted waters and choke points. Technological breakthroughs like miniaturisation has now made it possible to lay fixed seabed sensors with thousands of individual sensor elements acting like a huge sonobuoy field. In other words, while the naval planners are laying stress on acquiring capabilities for network-centric-warfare (NCW), such network-centricity must be expanded to the sub-surface domain.
Lay greater emphasis on airborne units within the mix of ASW platforms, since these are virtually immune to much of the offensive ordnance that any submarine can bring to bear against the adversary’s ASW units. Attendant to it is the need for enhanced R&D efforts directed towards appropriate aircraft-based sensors like dunking-sonars and sonobuoys.
Fill the void in submarine force-levels, which is projected to further widen in the coming years. Within the force-mix, a significantly greater proportion of conventional submarines are necessary in submarine-to-submarine killer (SSK) role for defensive-cordon of littoral vital areas/points (VA & VPs) and to sanitize entry points off the choke points. Some of these will need to be equipped with air-independent propulsion (AIP) to increase operational flexibility.
Induct sufficient number of SSNs. These would be essential not only for escorting aircraft carriers, but also in strategic-ASW role. Only an SSN can neutralize a Chinese SSBN before it launches a SLBM. Even if this cannot be achieved, the presence of SSNs will surely restrict the SSBN’s mobility. A few SSNs armed with land-attack cruise missiles (LACM) may also be necessary for long-range deployment in the western Pacific for strategic deterrence.
Re-orient mindset. In addition to the capability and doctrinal alignment, equally critical is the mental shift in the Indian submarine arm itself from being a pure tactical force to a strategic one. This would need an emphasis on geo-economic concepts and studies, the realisation of the conventional submarines’ need for land-attack weapons rather than only for anti-shipping, and the tasking of submarine fleet for strategic missions.
Development of Naval-Technologies
Acoustic Underwater Sensors
Passive seabed hydrophone chains for deployment in shallow-waters. While such a system may be eschewed due to its association with the American SOSUS (Sound Surveillance System) of Cold War era, it is important to note that a similar sonar-chain continues to be used today by Japan to monitor PLA Navy submarine intrusions into its maritime zones.
Multi-static fixed sonar systems for deployment in most critical shallow-water areas/choke-points. It would comprise many distributed passive-receivers incorporated in buoys that would sense reflected transmissions of one (or a few) active sources, and transmit the warning to shore stations. The use of active means is necessary since the Chinese diesel submarines operating in ultra-quiet machinery regime may bottom in shallow waters such as those off A&N Islands. Such systems are also essential to reduce platform-intensiveness of India’s ASW and would also offer a tactical advantage in terms of preserving the stealth of own submarines in SSK role. The ongoing US Littoral ASW Multi-static Project (LAMP) project is an example of such a concept.
Networking of the aforesaid underwater sensors with those of individual ASW platforms, as an extension of the NEWN (Navy Enterprise Wide Network). The US has recently taken up two such ASW programs. One is meant to incorporate Distributed Netted Sensors (DNS), which is a network of low-cost, rapidly deployable, autonomous sensors that can be fielded in sufficient numbers. Another is the Deployable Distributed Autonomous System (DADS), which is a networked shallow water array (also incorporating non-acoustic sensors) to detect and share information on passing submarines.
Low-frequency (LF) active towed-array sonar (1.5 to 2.5 Khz) for force-protection during sea-control operations, since passive LF sensors are likely to be constrained due to quieting techniques being employed in China’s conventional submarines. LF sonars have greater detection ranges and can penetrate stealth hull-coatings of Chinese submarines better. (Of course, the LF sonar transmissions’ potential to cause harm to marine mammals and the attendant international obligations will need to be considered.).
Non-acoustic Underwater Sensors
Increase effectiveness of existing non-acoustic means of submarine detection like Magnetic Anomaly Detection (MAD), optronic systems (low-light TV/ infrared and passive optics), ESM and periscope-detection radar. MAD systems (being used by TU-142M aircraft) for example, is effective only up to a few thousand feet from the sensor. The efficacy of optronic systems is substantially degraded in poor weather conditions. It may also be necessary to develop the capability for real-time satellite imagery to detect submarine snort/periscope.
Cooperate with countries that have achieved headway in developing alternate non-acoustic detection technologies. Supplementation of existing means is necessary due to unpredictability of sound-wave travel in tropical waters of Indian Ocean. Besides, the focus of Chinese submarine operations is likely to be on littoral waters, where the acoustic detection will be more difficult. The navies of many developed countries are known to have made substantial investments towards R&D in this direction. One is the Neodymium-YAG blue-green laser (0.54 µm wavelength), which can theoretically be used to detect objects as deep as up to three times the Secchi (visible) depth. While its swath and depth are too limited for be used as a comprehensive method of submarine-detection, it may be effective as a means for submarine-localisation in choke-points and coastal waters. Another potential means for non-acoustic detection is through the use of hyper-spectral imagery from aircraft. However, this could also be used for submarine detection in relatively shallow waters. Operating in visible and near infrared spectrums, such systems use extensive spectral channels to pick up subtle color features inherent in different materials and substances. The analysis of specific signatures makes it possible to identify the materials that make up a scanned object. The US is known to have developed such a system in 2004 called Littoral Airborne Sensor/ Hyperspectral (LASH).
Explore new technologies for non-acoustic detection. Some thought is being directed worldwide towards the potential means. One of these is ‘Bernoulli-hump’, i.e. by discerning the slight anomaly in surface height of the sea caused by moving submarines. Another is ‘Kelvin wake’, viz, detection of the ‘wake’ on sea surface caused by moving submarines against background of random sea-movement. Yet another is detection by ‘Bioluminescence’, i.e. ‘luminescent’ reaction of planktons and other marine life to disturbance caused by passing submarines.
Anti-Submarine Weapons
Operationalise the US High Altitude ASW Weapon Concept (HAAWC). At present, most ASW aircraft need to descend to a very low altitude to target enemy submarines, which not only makes it vulnerable to enemy air-defence, but also leads to the loss of its communication with the sonobuoy field. The HAAWC is essentially a self-contained wing adaptor that provides range extension and autonomous guidance to the air-to-surface weapons (like torpedoes, bombs and even mines), thereby allowing the aircraft to remain at high altitude and conduct an effective attack while simultaneously enabling the crew to maintain and exploit the full sensor field. In May 2007, Lockheed Martin conducted a successful HAAWC test with Mk-54 torpedo launch from P-3C Orion aircraft.
Induct a high-speed anti-submarine heavyweight torpedo. To be effective, a torpedo should have at least a 50 per cent speed advantage over its target. Against a Chinese SSN capable of doing a maximum submerged speed of 32 knots, it translates the required torpedo speed of at least 46 knots. Thermal propulsion may need to be resorted to for this (and also to achieve greater ranges). The US Mk-50 Barracuda lightweight torpedo incorporates an innovative thermal propulsion system called SCEPS (Stored Chemical Energy Propulsion System), providing a speed of 55+ knots. Its “thermal-battery” contains lithium and sulphur hexa-flouride, which react at high temperature producing steam and solid ash. The other users of thermal propulsion are the UK (using a variant of Otto-fuel concept), Sweden (using hydrogen peroxide) and Russia (53-83 and 650mm torpedoes). India’s Naval Science and Technological Laboratory (NSTL) is known to be developing such high-speed and long-range torpedoes called Taksha and Varunastra.
Wire-guidance for aforesaid thermal torpedoes. The need is driven by the higher probability of these deviating from the correct track due to their higher speed and greater noise-level. In any case, the hit-probability of wire-guided torpedoes is as high as more than 90 percent, as against 50-60 percent for the autonomous ones. Furthermore, fibre optic cables will be better over electric ones. A wider band-width offered by the former will enable better off-board sensing, besides enabling torpedo guidance up to longer distances, due to reduced signal attenuation.
Anti-submarine rocket-torpedo (like the US ASROC) or a missile-torpedo (like the French-Italian Milas). Such systems enable long-range targeting of nuclear submarines, while severely limiting the reaction time of the target. The earliest version of the ASROC inducted by the US Navy in 1961 incorporated a ballistic rocket with Mk-46 lightweight torpedo with its maximum range limited to 5.5 nautical miles. In comparison, the Milas system (guided missile with MU-90 lightweight torpedo) being inducted by the Italian Navy can target a submarine up to a distance of 32 nautical miles, with the torpedo reaching the splash-point within 3 minutes of launch.
Emphasise on proximity fuses for torpedo-actuation, rather than impact fuses. The former is known to cause greater destruction.
Anti-Torpedo Torpedo is necessary as the only counter-measure against wake-homing torpedoes. Such a system is under development in the US. Named the Surface Ship Torpedo Defence System (SSTD), it is envisaged to be used in conjunction with a 6 ¾-inch Common Very Lightweight Torpedo (CVLWT) and Compact Rapid Attack Weapon (CRAW).
Conduct research on alternate means of torpedo-defence such as the electro-magnetic gun and the laser-based ‘hard-kill’ technologies.
Mine Counter-measures (MCM)
Blue-green laser and hyper-spectral technologies. These may not provide a comprehensive solution to the challenge of submarine detection, but will provide an effective means for detection of mines in shallow waters. The US has developed a LIDAR system dedicated for mine-detection. Called Magic Lantern, it is mounted on a pod carried by a helicopter, and uses a neodymium-YAG blue-green laser linked to six charged coupled device (CCD) cameras to detect mines at different depths. Pulse-timing generators electronically open the cameras to enable reception of the reflected laser energy from pre-selected depths. The images are available in real-time and can also be stored in system memory.
Three-dimensional radar in ports and harbours for defence against China’s mine-mounted long-range torpedoes. This becomes essential due to the complexities emanating from the rising level of underwater noise generated by increasing density of shipping activity, added to that produced by marine mammals.
Submarine Communications
VLF mapping. Very-low-frequency (VLF) is currently the only means available with shore authority to pass messages to the submerged submarines. VLF mapping is a critical necessity on two counts - One, for gauging India’s ability to communicate with its submarines in the western Pacific; but more importantly, for a more accurate threat assessment. It would indicate the westward extent in the Indian Ocean to which Chinese submarines would be able to communicate with their home bases.
Redundancy for the sole VLF station. India presently operates only one VLF station, which is thus highly assailable. To mitigate this vulnerability, India would need to build alternate VLF stations.
Non-VLF means. This would also contribute to reduce India’s aforesaid vulnerability. For communicating with submarines on surface or at periscope-depth, India would need faster satellite-based (high-data rate, two-way and secure) communications. For submerged communications, it would be desirable to develop blue-green laser technology, which can enable two-way underwater communication with submarines up to 40-50 metres depth.
Tactical submarine-communication system. Even as India would also need tactical communication systems, these would need to cater for long-range requirements appropriate to the geographical spread of its maritime security interests in the Indian Ocean. One such system is the US Deep Siren being developed by Raytheon that integrates satellite communication with buoy-mounted acoustics. It essentially comprises of an expendable buoy launched from the submarine, ship or aircraft, which is used as an intermediary for receiving satellite signals and sending these to the submarine at distances ranging from 30 nm (in shallow waters) to 150 nm (in deep waters).It enables shore authorities to communicate with submarines regardless of their depth, and thereby obviate the necessity for the submarine to adhere to shore broadcast schedules. Although Deep Siren envisages global satellite coverage, one or two geo-synchronous satellites would suffice in the Indian context for providing a regional coverage.

Note: Post the link Always

 

[Koji]

How about this from Forbes.

In there Global 2000 ranking, China has 91 companies while India has 47. Korea has 61 and Japan is at 288 to give you a comparison. Taiwan, with a population of 23 million has 45 companies in this ranking. Sadly, if you look at the website, you'll see that Taiwan and India have more in common when comparing at global company punch.

China: Sales ($bil) 935.2
Profits: 114.9
Assets: 5216.9
Market value: 1602.6

India:
Sales: 387.8
Profits: 43.5
Assets: 1238.3
Market Value: 312.6

As always the case, the numbers don't lie.

The largest Company is ICBC, at the global rank of 12. PetroChina comes in at 14. China Construction Bank comes in at 23. No Indian company breaks the top 25. And don't bother with the state owned businesses..b/c almost all on the list are state-owned (many by western countries)

The World's Biggest Companies - Forbes.com

 

[Adux]

Wrong again! China's first AIP was launched in 2004



Type 039A/B (Yuan Class) Diesel-Electric Submarine - SinoDefence.com

Now China is retrofitting AIP to the Songs too.

LOL... of course we patrol, we have replenishment vessels. Do you?

Hi nitwit,
Launching something means sqwat, it is not operational, and also it is still not operational. Do you know the patrolling capacity of your SSN's and SSBN's; laughable.

 

[Koji]

Hi nitwit,
Launching something means sqwat, it is not operational, and also it is still not operational. Do you know the patrolling capacity of your SSN's and SSBN's; laughable.

Do you?? Supposedly, it should be quite sizable.

 

[Sridhar]

Astra microwaves pvt ltd has been producing TR modules for India.It has recently formed a 51:49 JV with BEL which is also the largest govt entity to ensure production rates.

Defense Radar
Transmit/receive (TR) modules in UHF, L, S, C, X and Ku band for active apertures
Low power microwave sub-systems for central acquisition radar (CAR)
Electronic beam former for 3-D radar
Microwave receivers
High power 4-port circulators for radar applications.
High power limiters
Telemetry
Data and video telemetry transmitter systems for LCA and IJT
Video telemetry receivers
Telemetry tracking systems
1 watt and 10 watt telemetry transmitters for missile applications
Ground-based and sureveillance
8-Ch and 16-Ch frequency synthesizer for army applications
VHF/UHF and microwave range front-end LRUs for ground surveillance applications
VHF/UHF and microwave range biconical, dual-polarised antennae for ground surveillance applications
* Technology from DLRL Hyderabad

Astra Microwave Products Ltd - Customers

 

[Adux]

Read on Chinese Submarine Patrols Rebound in 2007, but Remain Limited « FAS Strategic Security Blog

Heck, the Indian Navy does more than triple number that they do and also at longer distance with those effin Diesel Subs. And Indians do atleast 10 Major training exercises, Heck a fleet just came back from conducting exercises with France and Britan, They were there in May and Just arrived back. What does that tell you of deployment and logistics?

 

[Sridhar]

US will not allow any activity by China in IOR. We will form an alliance to make sure it never happens ...

China proposed division of Pacific, Indian Ocean regions, we declined: US Admiral

“We (Keating and Mehta) talked a little about the potential development of a Chinese aircraft carrier. I related (to Mehta) a conversation I had with a senior Chinese Naval officer during which he proposed, in his words, that as China builds aircraft carriers — he said plural — we can make a deal,” the PACOM chief said after meeting the top Indian military leadership besides the National Security Advisor and Foreign Secretary.

China proposed division of Pacific, Indian Ocean regions, we declined: US Admiral

 

[Tamil]

Nothing can be given to them

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Read on Chinese Submarine Patrols Rebound in 2007, but Remain Limited « FAS Strategic Security Blog

Heck, the Indian Navy does more than triple number that they do and also at longer distance with those effin Diesel Subs. And Indians do atleast 10 Major training exercises, Heck a fleet just came back from conducting exercises with France and Britan, They were there in May and Just arrived back. What does that tell you of deployment and logistics?

Adu,

The Chinese have a superiour submarine force over the Indians for one reason and one reason only. They've lost a crew.

I want you to think what I've just written.