Indian Ocean Developments

[SammyCheung]

By that, I assume you mean fighter AESA. They do have those actually. During a recent interview with the chief designer of J-10 on CCTV, he said J-10 was already mass equipped with ESA radar. I don't consider equipping prototypes "mass equipped". He must mean that a part of the J-10A is equipped with it. Considering pla doctrine, it is unlikely to be PESA.

I'm pretty certain J-10A is not equipped with AESA. It should be KLJ-10 slotted array radar. I posted the specs for its smaller cousin KLJ-7 in this thread.

 

[Adux]

By that, I assume you mean fighter AESA. They do have those actually. During a recent interview with the chief designer of J-10 on CCTV, he said J-10 was already mass equipped with ESA radar. I don't consider equipping prototypes "mass equipped". He must mean that a part of the J-10A is equipped with it. Considering pla doctrine, it is unlikely to be PESA.

You have been begging the Russians to sell you the N-011M Bars; You know why that is? Ponder on it? A country which hasnt even produced one single original design, nor has required techexperience or cooperation of leaders in the same producing world class equipment, laughable. Heck you even copied the damn French helicopter and called it your own, worse you made it inferior to the one's you copied from, Just like those F-7's, and not mention all those crap J-7's etc. Good lucking crashing into other aircrafts to bring them down like the EP-3

Talking about AESA in general. They have them on KJ-2000 and Y-8 Balance Beam, and on type-052C DDG.

\

Brilliant to see crap ruskbuckets all said in one line.


To p2Prada.

They bought a whole range of equipment during the honeymoon period, including leo2.

Must a be secret one, No?

Russian experts can help us in missiles, submarines, torpedos, and engines.

Russians wont sell you top of the line stuff, Your only source of weapons wont sell you top of the line stuff. Why, you are a future threat to them,

Despite the embargo by Europe. Many technology can flow through the conduit of dual use technology.

Technological expertise is directly proportional to the amount of money you pump into R&D. Some countries have accumulated the expertise over time, but the gap should not be as large as OOE suggests, considering we are continually getting help from Europe and Israel.

No you are not, that ended with Phalcon cancellation, It is India's pre-condition that Israel dont deal with China anymore, It is also the pre-condition of USA. Guess who won there, not you guys. Also Europe, though not during Chirac times, as of now doesnt want to deal with China when it comes to weapons, heck even the Russians dont want to. I mean who want to deal with people who are untrustworthy and theives of IP. There is a reason why Russians have stopped giving you information on Su-33.

To Sammy

My source suggests that the production of 093 has stopped. They are waiting for the construction of 095 to begin next year.

Adux, as we would say, anger worsens your health my friend.

I'm not contesting India's local superiority. China some times does get by with diplomacy.

Dont bother about my health, try resucing those slaves of CCP from inhumane working conditions, Will see you when you attain my level of freedom. Unlucky sobs , you have been. Unlucky.

 

[p2prada]

No you do not make every key component in India. That's why you have to import it. This is obvious just based on India's level of industrialization. Please provide source for your claim that Israel built you two manufacturing plants and you are making T/R modules in them.

I said Israel built 2 radars in India and not fab plants. We built the fab plants to suit our needs. We have had fab plants since decades churning out military grade transistors since a long time.

Yes transmit receive modules are fabricated, not just processors. India doesn't manufacture civilian electronic commodities.

OMG So what. We wouldn't have had a space program and an aerospace program if we did not have fabrication technology. T/R modules are fabricated in India. We don't need a civilian industry for it. Intel, AMD etc will not fabricate military grade components for China, you will have to build your own plants for military use.

Our own scientists have said they have the capability to make the Swordfish from scratch.

There is no comparison at all between manufacturing capacity of China and India -- especially heavy industry. I can pull up dozens of sources on this if you want. It's very well documented fact.

There is no comparison between the industry capacity of Sweden and China. But, they still build better military grade component than China does. Heavy Industry don't mean shit if your technology is sourced from the US or Japan. You R&D industry matter and foreign investment is non-existent.

Despite your list of India firms, they pale in comparison to international heavyweights:

Largest conglomerates in the world

General Electric Company United States 141,900
China Pacific Insurance (Group) Co., Ltd. China 31,301
Jardine Matheson Holdings Ltd. Bermuda 17,971
Swire Pacific Ltd. Hong Kong 16,900
Industries Qatar Q.S.C. Qatar 15,953
Groupe Bruxelles Lambert SA Belgium 12,298
Qinghai Salt Lake Industry Group Co.,Ltd. China 11,891
China Resources Power Holdings Company Ltd. Hong Kong 10,899
Itochu Corporation Japan 10,189
Kingdom Holding Company Saudi Arabia 7,980
Marubeni Corporation Japan 7,971
Jaiprakash Associates Ltd India 6,867
Mitsubishi Chemical Holdings Corporation Japan 6,145
Genting Berhad Malaysia 5,869
Hana Financial Group Inc South Korea 5,852
CNP - Compagnie Nationale ? Portefeuille Belgium 5,348
Grupo De Inversiones Suramericana SA Colombia 4,807
Koc Holding AS Turkey 4,421
Enterprise GP Holdings LP United States 4,098
Exor SpA Italy 4,050
SM Investments Corp Philippines 3,821
Fukuoka Financial Group, Inc. Japan 3,735
Savola Group Company Saudi Arabia 3,346
Corporacion Financiera Alba, S.A. Spain 3,180
MEIJI Holdings Co.,Ltd. Japan 3,075
Unipol Gruppo Finanziario S.p.A. Italy 2,992
J. FRONT RETAILING Co., Ltd. Japan 2,932
Rentokil Initial plc United Kingdom 2,896
Nippon Paper Group Inc. Japan 2,877
Affiliated Managers Group, Inc. United States 2,725
Impulsora del Desarrollo y el Empleo en America Latina SAB de CV Mexico 2,538
Janus Capital Group, Inc. United States 2,488
China Yurun Food Group Ltd Bermuda 2,422
ASM Pacific Technology Ltd. Hong Kong 2,402
Ackermans & van Haaren N.V. Belgium 2,326
Mexichem, S.A. de C.V. Mexico 2,115
Alfresa Holdings Corporation Japan 2,103
MMC Corporation Berhad Malaysia 2,090
Daewoo International Corporation South Korea 2,041
National Industries Group (Holding) Kuwait 1,931
Holding MRSK Russia 1,899
Astro All Asia Network Plc Malaysia 1,890
Shun Tak Holdings Ltd. Hong Kong 1,849
Discount Investment Corporation Ltd. Israel 1,827
Lee & Man Paper Manufacturing Ltd Hong Kong 1,788
TAM SA Brazil 1,787
IT Holdings Corp. Japan 1,713
Solvac S.A. Belgium 1,711
Hargreaves Lansdown Plc United Kingdom 1,696
Santander Chile Holding S.A. Chile 1,569
Telefonica Moviles Peru Holdings S.A. Peru 1,543
Charter International plc Republic of Ireland 1,542
Financiere De Lodet SA France 1,523
Advanced Technology & Materials Co., Ltd. China 1,495
Xinyi Glass Holdings Ltd Hong Kong 1,470
FFP - Ste Fonciere Financiere & Part France 1,431
Compagnie Industriali Riunite (CIR) Italy 1,416
Compagnie du Cambodge S.A. France 1,351
Koor Industries, Ltd. Israel 1,325
Vector Limited New Zealand 1,323
Doosan Corporation Ltd. South Korea 1,303
Baoviet Holdings Vietnam 1,287
Alliance Holdings GP L.P. United States 1,274
Maire Tecnimont S.p.A. Italy 1,266
Energisa S.A. Brazil 1,224
Britvic PLC United Kingdom 1,218
Liberty Acquisition Holdings Corp. United States 1,192
Shanghai Shenhua Holdings Company Ltd China 1,163
G-Resources Group Limited Hong Kong 1,162
Jonjee Hi-Tech Industrial And Commercial Holding Co., Ltd. China 1,146
Trian Acquisition I Corp. United States 1,116
Exterran Holdings Inc. United States 1,086
Magnesita Refratarios SA Brazil 1,082
Yazicilar Holding A.S. Turkey 1,055
DCM Japan Holdings Co Ltd Japan 1,048
Pick 'n Pay Holdings Ltd. South Africa 1,043
LSR Group Russia 1,036
Zhejiang Zhongda Group Co., Ltd. China 992
Sapphire Industrials Corp. United States 984
Telling Telecom Holding Co., Ltd China 981
Tekfen Holding A S Turkey 954
Dongguan Development (Holdings) Co Ltd China 953
Eon Capital BHD Malaysia 946
Malaysian Bulk Carriers Berhad Malaysia 904
Wellstream Holdings PLC United Kingdom 900
KBC Ancora SCA Belgium 897
Jingtou Yintai Co., Ltd China 860
Poulina Group Holding SA Tunisia 841
Shanghai Qiangsheng Holdings Co Ltd China 827
Santos Brasil Participacoes SA Brazil 818
Kim Eng Holdings Limited Singapore 806
Wasion Group Holdings Limited Hong Kong 788
Hosken Consolidated Investments Ltd. South Africa 774
Pacific Corp South Korea 764
John Keells Holdings PLC Sri Lanka 735
BAM Investments Corp Canada 718
Kardan N.V Netherlands 716
Nan Hai Corporation Ltd. Hong Kong 709
COSCO International Holdings Limited Hong Kong 704
OM Holdings Ltd Bermuda 691

I have no ides what those numbers mean. If it means number of employees working for them then Tata Group have 350000 employees and Mahindra Group have 300000.

Indian companies cannot be in the top list because of our exchange rates, 1$=Rs 48. Our companies generate more revenue from India than other countries. Their assets go into Trillions.

When it comes to defense industry, the comparison is even more dramatic! All the so-called "Indian defense firms" you can list are just suppliers of minor components. Like the Air Bus (software) example you gave. China fabricates wing control surfaces for Air Bus too. It's not surprising that multinationals would have Indian companies in mind for some specific thing like a piece of software. Let's not try to depict it like India all of a sudden is doing this on its own when in fact it's totally reliant on its foreign corp.

Firstly the piece of software is similar to how Catia is. Or other examples include Pro E, Solids, Maya, 3DMax etc. Now do you get the extent of the uses of that piece of software. Secondly, the software was made in ADA(a Indian Govt owned company). This software was used in the development of the composites for the LCA. So, what I was talking about is R&D and not manufacturing.

Can you name an Indian defense company that has developed and manufactured equipment already deployed? There is only one: HAL.

TATA and L&T built the Pinaka MBRL.
Pinaka Multi Barrel Rocket Launcher - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

L&T is already manufacturing SSBNs.

TATA Group is also involved in designing and building 70000km of OFC(Optic Fibre Cables) for the Airforce.
TATA is also vying for contracts for the F-INSAS program.

Note the TATA logo on the top left corner.

Consider this, China spends more than 2x more on defense than India even while India imports its arms. Though you think India is doing well, China's industrial base is far larger.

That don't mean shit. Israel and Sweden industrial base is non-existent. Think about it. I won't deny that you have more money into R&D projects. But, we are currently working in Joint Ventures and you may have heard about all those projects we are into. PAKFA, SAMs, AWACS etc etc etc.

EADS also sees us as a partner when it comes to R&D and are willing to offer a stake in the Eurofighter Typhoon Program making us the 5th country to join the 4 country consortium. They wouldn't have done that had our expertise been non-existent.

 

[natarajan]

If we get more number of conventinal submarines(amur,u214,scorpene) with AIP equipped with brahmos we can easily have control over indian ocean

 

[SammyCheung]

You have been begging the Russians to sell you the N-011M Bars; You know why that is?

LOL!! Please post a source for this ridiculous claim.

 

[Ray]

China begs no one.

They just filch it!

And claim it as original!

 

[nitesh]

If we get more number of conventinal submarines(amur,u214,scorpene) with AIP equipped with brahmos we can easily have control over indian ocean

we rule it already, remember Chinese begging for joing the Naval Symposium started by us

 

[SammyCheung]

China begs no one.

They just filch it!

And claim it as original!

Well okay, you are right. But at least we absorb the technology and make the next generation.

For example, Chinese Iphone:

 

[Adux]

As we have reported often in these columns, Sino-Russian relations have soured in recent years over one key issue: the continuing refusal of the Russian government under both Russian Presidents Vladimir Putin and Dmitry Medvedev to sell China any of the long shopping list of advanced, expensive ground warfare and Close Air Support weapons that China still cannot produce but desperately needs to become a truly formidable major military power.

Russia has been willing to sell China air defense systems, older combat aircraft and many classes of warships, including Kilo-class diesel submarines that Beijing could use in any future conventional war against the United States. But it has flatly refused to part with any of its “crown jewels” or the industrial capabilities to manufacture them.


snip


In other words, it can safely be said that China’s arms industry, for all the country’s astonishing economic and industrial achievements, is still incapable of making a vast range of weapons, especially for land warfare and tactical air support of ground operations that it must buy from other sources.

Russia may sell fewer weapons to China - Pacific Freeze

Who would want to sell to thieves! Heck they even make inferior copies of what they flinch.

 

[tharikiran]

LOL!! Please post a source for this ridiculous claim.

post a link which shows you guys are using N-011M Bars

Or forever keep your peace.

 

[SATISH]

Well okay, you are right. But at least we absorb the technology and make the next generation.

For example, Chinese Iphone:

You are not absorbing it mate...you are just remaking it. Any one can do that. You are just like a technician...you just see how it works and try to replicate it...you dont invent stuff. And what has I-phone supposed to do with Indian Ocean?

 

[SammyCheung]

Russia may sell fewer weapons to China - Pacific Freeze

Who would want to sell to thieves! Heck they even make inferior copies of what they flinch.

LOL! Your article doesn't even mention "Bars." You obviously just make stuff up out of thin air.

post a link which shows you guys are using N-011M Bars

Or forever keep your peace.

Back around 2004, Russia offered China an export version of Bars for China called Panda (funny name I know). But China refused to buy MKK3.

China has no need for Bars generation electronically steered passive arrays.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-30MKK

In response, Tikhomirov subsequently offered China its N-011M Bars passive electronically scanned array radar, the most powerful Russian airborne radar on any of its exported aircraft, but China once again rejected the offer. Many claimed that the reason for the rejection was that Chinese discovered the same problem India had during the evaluation of the radar: although the N-011M Bars passive electronically scanned array radar offered longer range and better resistance to jamming, it had problem of accurately and correct identifying targets at long range, while others claims China simply did not want the same system used by India. However, both claims contradict with the official explanation of the Chinese government: the new radar weighs more than 650 kg and caused the center of gravity of the aircraft to alter significantly, thus greatly degraded the aerodynamic performance and weapon payload arrangement of the Su-30MKK, which is far less adaptable to the new heavy radar than Su-30MKI, because the two were based on two totally different airframes, a fact that is confirmed by Jane's all the World's Aircraft. If the new radar was to be adopted, canards must be added and flight control software must be also modified for Su-30MKK just to remain the same level of performance as before, and thus, in addition of paying for the more expensive new radars, a huge amount of money must also be spent in upgrade the aircraft as well, a feat that was considered not economical and simply not affordable by China. The Russian confirmation of Chinese renewed interest in Panda radar only seems to confirm such claims.

 

[tharikiran]

Back around 2004, Russia offered China an export version of Bars for China called Panda (funny name I know). But China refused to buy MKK3.

Source please. I can talk about India having AESA right now.

 

[hbogyt]

re

You have been begging the Russians to sell you the N-011M Bars; You know why that is? Ponder on it? A country which hasnt even produced one single original design, nor has required techexperience or cooperation of leaders in the same producing world class equipment, laughable. Heck you even copied the damn French helicopter and called it your own, worse you made it inferior to the one's you copied from, Just like those F-7's, and not mention all those crap J-7's etc. Good lucking crashing into other aircrafts to bring them down like the EP-3

\

Brilliant to see crap ruskbuckets all said in one line.


To p2Prada.



Must a be secret one, No?



Russians wont sell you top of the line stuff, Your only source of weapons wont sell you top of the line stuff. Why, you are a future threat to them,



No you are not, that ended with Phalcon cancellation, It is India's pre-condition that Israel dont deal with China anymore, It is also the pre-condition of USA. Guess who won there, not you guys. Also Europe, though not during Chirac times, as of now doesnt want to deal with China when it comes to weapons, heck even the Russians dont want to. I mean who want to deal with people who are untrustworthy and theives of IP. There is a reason why Russians have stopped giving you information on Su-33.

To Sammy

My source suggests that the production of 093 has stopped. They are waiting for the construction of 095 to begin next year.




Dont bother about my health, try resucing those slaves of CCP from inhumane working conditions, Will see you when you attain my level of freedom. Unlucky sobs , you have been. Unlucky.

We have been begging for no Bars. Don't tell me what we have been doing you pathetic.

French helicopter is fully licensed.

"Ruskbuckets" you don't have or can't make.

"Dont bother about my health, try resucing those slaves of CCP from inhumane working conditions, Will see you when you attain my level of freedom. Unlucky sobs , you have been. Unlucky"

This is just off. I think I know what freedom we have.

The workers can either work for low wage or have no wage at all. Basic economics.

 

[SammyCheung]

Source please. I can talk about India having AESA right now.

Here is a good account of what happened.

The MKK3 was to possibly feature either the Phazotron Zhuk-MSF phased array radar, or a new "Panda" radar developed by Tikhomirov, which is based on Pero passive phased array radar, both were rumored to be under Chinese evaluation. Either radar would significantly improve the Su-30s air target detection range to 190km and surface detection range at 300 km. It is uncertain whether the PLAN or PLAAF would order any of these aircraft, despite their significant advantages with their advanced radars. Therefore, if these radars passed Chinese tests, they will likely to be retrofitted to earlier MKK and MKK2 and even possibly Shenyang J-11 due to uncertain status of MKK3 project.

In January 2007, Russia confirmed that the newest Irbis-E (Snow leopard-E) phased array radar in Russia's inventory, developed by Tikhomirov, was offered to China. However, it is highly unlikely that China will adopt this newest Russian airborne radar because all models of the Su-30 series can only provide half of the power required for the 5 kW rated radar, and currently, only Sukhoi Su-35 and Sukhoi Su-37 have enough power to support this newest Russian airborne radar. Purchasing Irbis-E phased array radar would lock China into yet another deal with Russia to upgrade its Su-30MKK fleet that would greatly increase the cost, because China currently lacks the ability to do so by itself, or is forced to pay even higher prices to buy the Su-35 or Su-37.

Sukhoi Su-30MKK - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[tharikiran]

I think I know what freedom we have.

Yup, the world knows it too
Why do guys censor internet then. Don't even dare to explain it to me.

 

[p2prada]

How about this from Forbes.

In there Global 2000 ranking, China has 91 companies while India has 47. Korea has 61 and Japan is at 288 to give you a comparison. Taiwan, with a population of 23 million has 45 companies in this ranking. Sadly, if you look at the website, you'll see that Taiwan and India have more in common when comparing at global company punch.

China: Sales ($bil) 935.2
Profits: 114.9
Assets: 5216.9
Market value: 1602.6

India:
Sales: 387.8
Profits: 43.5
Assets: 1238.3
Market Value: 312.6

As always the case, the numbers don't lie.

The largest Company is ICBC, at the global rank of 12. PetroChina comes in at 14. China Construction Bank comes in at 23. No Indian company breaks the top 25. And don't bother with the state owned businesses..b/c almost all on the list are state-owned (many by western countries)

The World's Biggest Companies - Forbes.com

Like I said, the dollar rupee exchange rate makes the difference.

1$= 6 Yuan whereas 1$-Rs 48. Notice the huge difference. Also, the Indian companies are humongous even after coming from a country where the market is not as well developed as China, Europe or US.

 

[tharikiran]

only Sukhoi Su-35 and Sukhoi Su-37 have enough power to support this newest Russian airborne radar.

The author doesn't know shit .Your article is crap. India is using N011M Bars in Su30 MKI.

 

[hbogyt]

re

I think I know what freedom we have.

Yup, the world knows it too
Why do guys censor internet then. Don't even dare to explain it to me.

It would be foolish not to cencor any. Every country does. And we are happy with it. What should be cencored is up to subjective judgement. A more appropriate question is would China still have as much cencorship when it's GDP per capita reaches the current western level.

Most websites are only blocked during sensitive time, and unblocked afterwards.

I've also spoken to my friends who have tried the new web filter. It's entirely uninstallible.

As a matter of fact, the world doesn't know much about freedom in China. How much information about China do you get daily? Compared to me? Do you seriously believe you know more about China than I do?

I'm not like Sammy. I don't post things like India can't make this, can't make that. Because I admit I don't know much. I only correct some misinformation on the Chinese side if necessary. I'd expect the same from you.

That's it, no more of this off-topic discussion brought about by adux.

 

[tharikiran]

And we are happy with it.

You don't stand for every Chinese. So, don't talk crap about censorship and being happy.
Give this crap to someone else.
You cannot justify it-period.

As a matter of fact, the world doesn't know much about freedom in China. How much information about China do you get daily?

The world will know automatically if you guys stop internet censorship, media censorship and state propaganda.Do you realize, the news you get on your television doesn't show the truth.
Do you know what that means ?

I am way off track and I am sorry. Just couldn't help it.

Lets talk about who will rule Indian Ocean.