Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[flanker99]

DPSUs literally will say anything to get orders. Wonder if our shipbuilding contracts come with deadlines & penalties.

Absolutely any sane country at thisbpoint would have started a major restructuring process of the industry ...but when i asked a veteran on twtr about this some times ago he just said "it happens" i was baffled by this...but looking at our shipyards and how they mostly survive off of navies orders (orders of which are always take too long) this late delivery schedule probably helps them keep the yard going...i mean all the yeards are run by ex navy admirals so..

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

XRSAM is developed all 3 branches of Indian Armed Forces.
Land based version for IAF and IA while navalized version for IN.
Most of the missile is expected to be the same with minor adjustment for launch from UVLS.

Ok sorry for late reply I visited this thread after long time and great to know we will have our own s-400s any idea on timelines?

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

Such a delay and long construction time is simply unacceptable, after all the chestthumping of modular construction. If true, GRSE should be permanently blacklisted from future warship contracts. Let them stick to building tugboats

Absolutely, the repeat order for 7 more P17A frigates should not go to GRSE.
It should either be MDL and GSL or MDL and pvt player like L&T.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Triput class
View attachment 178638View attachment 178639View attachment 178640

Few points:

1. It has SRGM
2. It still carries Shtil Arm Launcher instead of VLS Shtil.
3. There seems some sort of VLS or some other module in front of arm launcher

Either the model is not update or they are still going of arm launcher.

Well, Shtil would be replaced by VL-SRSAM eventually and maybe the Russians were (as usual) asking for some exorbitant sum of money to effectuate any design changes in the ship? This might have forced Navy to go ahead with arm launchers for now and replace it with VL-SRSAM post-delivery.

GRSE would deliver the first P17A frigate in 2025, almost 7.5 years after it was laid down. What a joke.

On that same page (see source below), they say:-

GRSE P-17A	Launch date	Delivery date	Possible range of durations (in months) between launch and delivery
Ship 1	Dec 2020	2025 (proposed)	49-60
Ship 2	Jul 2022	Early 2026 (proposed)	42-48
Ship 3	Jun 2023 (proposed)	Late 2026 (proposed)	36-42

First ship of a class is usually delayed. Deliveries speed up in subsequent ships. Nothing new here. Yes they should improve speed for subsequent ships but I think that will happen in NGD and NGF more because of higher indigenous content, especially the weapons and sensors going indigenous.


Same source:-

https://grse.in/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Transcript-of-Analyst-Meeet-Con-Call-for-Q1-FY-23-GRSE.pdf

Fund L&T to expand their shipyard to build frigates. They churned out the OPVs very quickly for indian standards. I still dont get why it would take 5 years to commission the ship from launch.

Offshore Patrol Vessels: L&T builds faster, cheaper than Goa Shipyard

Since PM Narendra Modi inaugurated GSL's indigenous shipbuilding project in November 2016, the shipyard has handed over two OPVs to the ICG and launched the other three

www.business-standard.com

Look at the % of import content in an OPV and in the P-17A. Look at the total number of subsystems. And you'll realize that L&T would hardly fare any better.
Also, L&T is involved in P-17A as well. It is collaborating with GRSE in P-17A.
.
People need to stop falling in this trap that private sector is some panacea.

 

[binayak95]

GRSE would deliver the first P17A frigate in 2025, almost 7.5 years after it was laid down. What a joke.

well the Goliath crane for transporting the blocks collapsed before construction began. No shit, sherlock

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Fund L&T to expand their shipyard to build frigates. They churned out the OPVs very quickly for indian standards. I still dont get why it would take 5 years to commission the ship from launch.

Offshore Patrol Vessels: L&T builds faster, cheaper than Goa Shipyard

Since PM Narendra Modi inaugurated GSL's indigenous shipbuilding project in November 2016, the shipyard has handed over two OPVs to the ICG and launched the other three

www.business-standard.com

Lol what? It's a wishful rant.
What is L&T's experience against GRSE in terms of frigates and destroyers? L&T will enter this business some day alone. But for now, they themselves gonna get any such project delayed for 10 years if contract given.

Absolutely any sane country at thisbpoint would have started a major restructuring process of the industry ...but when i asked a veteran on twtr about this some times ago he just said "it happens" i was baffled by this...but looking at our shipyards and how they mostly survive off of navies orders (orders of which are always take too long) this late delivery schedule probably helps them keep the yard going...i mean all the yeards are run by ex navy admirals so..

In India's case, "it happens". Where ships aren't modularly mass produced, orders are relatively small, every ship has to be an improvement over another, extensive testing sometimes puts hold on project, sometimes even material testing gives problematic mechanical properties, supplies at final end even depend at local workshops and factories when subcontracting goes on.

We are not counting 1.5-2 years, at least partially if not completely wasted by corona in terms of works as well as supply chain.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Lol what? It's a wishful rant.
What is L&T's experience against GRSE in terms of frigates and destroyers? L&T will enter this business some day alone. But for now, they themselves gonna get any such project delayed for 10 years if contract given.

In India's case, "it happens". Where ships aren't modularly mass produced, orders are relatively small, every ship has to be an improvement over another, extensive testing sometimes puts hold on project, sometimes even material testing gives problematic mechanical properties, supplies at final end even depend at local workshops and factories when subcontracting goes on.

We are not counting 1.5-2 years, at least partially if not completely wasted by corona in terms of works as well as supply chain.

Part of the problem is we just don't produce the same line for long in numbers, I am afraid same will happen with IAC-2 if it ever gets approved. IAC-1 follow up would be faster in theory but as we see already no plan there...lot of bs and substandard thinking and that is how IAF is ruined too

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Part of the problem is we just don't produce the same line for long in numbers, I am afraid same will happen with IAC-2 if it ever gets approved. IAC-1 follow up would be faster in theory but as we see already no plan there...lot of bs and substandard thinking and that is how IAF is ruined too

We can't do anything there. We don't have money like US & China and we can't afford to lose edge by producing same thing in large numbers.

Though IAC-2 is an individual ship and project management will be better than IAC-1 due to experience. Insistence of new technologies only can delay program which is reasonable also.

This is peacetime and it will be stupidest of government of India to push and finish projects to deliver half baked products to navy and make shipyards sit idle thereafter. There is no point if Indian shipyards don't have lines of orders waiting for them.

 

[rohit b3]

So this means the First Nilgiri from MDL wont come before 2024. Great!
INS Mormugao, the second Vishakapatnam Class Destroyer was seen in Sea Trials in Dec 2021. Its been over 10 months and still not handed over.
So after we finally see INS Nilgiri at Sea, it will be another 10-12 months before commissioning.
Expect to see INS Nilgiri at Sea by around Feb-March 2023 and final commissioning around Jan-Feb 2024.

We really need private shipbuilders like L and T.

 

[omaebakabaka]

We can't do anything there. We don't have money like US & China and we can't afford to lose edge by producing same thing in large numbers.

Though IAC-2 is an individual ship and project management will be better than IAC-1 due to experience. Insistence of new technologies only can delay program which is reasonable also.

This is peacetime and it will be stupidest of government of India to push and finish projects to deliver half baked products to navy and make shipyards sit idle thereafter. There is no point if Indian shipyards don't have lines of orders waiting for them.

We do neither, its not like we have state of art of anything nor good enough ones in numbers that are required. So problem is missing strategy and urgency, do nothing, lot of confusing import dependencies and so on

Exactly same as IAF, neither import nor make it domestically at priority, all this while opponents like China building numbers and now arming Porkies too.....basically no seriousness as these things don't get them election points in a country where population is made to get hooked on eternal social freebies...so no money I guess

 

[Indx TechStyle]

We do neither, its not like we have state of art of anything nor good enough ones in numbers that are required. So problem is missing strategy and urgency, do nothing, lot of confusing import dependencies and so on

Exactly same as IAF, neither import nor make it domestically at priority, all this while opponents like China building numbers and now arming Porkies too.....basically no seriousness as these things don't get them election points in a country where population is made to get hooked on eternal social freebies...so no money I guess

That's a misplaced rant.
Money is simply not there. Whatever money we have is a product of past 2 decades which has given us confidence to dream of producing indigenous weapons to substitute imports and make a big military at same time. The current state and modernization of military began only sometime in 2000s. It's still a big military to fend off any attack.

Nowhere freebies of government come in path of defence either. You can't spend 5% of GDP on defence in a democratic developing country. And complaining about it without reasoning is not a solution at least.

I'm not discrediting you, things; problems are not just that simple that you can explain in one line and blame it on government or armed forces. India is no Japan with industrial experiences and discipline, it's already outdoing its income levels when comes to technology and has a fairly good improvement rates in technology.

The system for the perfect evergrowing military isn't easy to develop and implement. If it was, world would have been a different place.

 

[flanker99]

In India's case, "it happens". Where ships aren't modularly mass produced, orders are relatively small, every ship has to be an improvement over another, extensive testing sometimes puts hold on project, sometimes even material testing gives problematic mechanical properties, supplies at final end even depend at local workshops and factories when subcontracting goes on.

We are not counting 1.5-2 years, at least partially if not completely wasted by corona in terms of works as well as supply chain.

1.5-2 years of supply chain problem for corona ?..how did u came to that conclusion?...mdl despite going through the same problems is around 1 year late if they send the ship for trials next year...the main objective of modular construction was to reduce build time from 8-9 years to 4-5 years if the shipyards are failing to deliver that then there needs to penalties..not just it happens

 

[Indx TechStyle]

1.5-2 years of supply chain problem for corona ?..how did u came to that conclusion?

if the shipyards are failing to deliver that then there needs to penalties..not just it happens

Have you ever been in shipbuilding or any other heavy fabrication industry?

 

[flanker99]

Have you ever been in shipbuilding or any other heavy fabrication industry?

No

 

[Dark Sorrow]

1.5-2 years of supply chain problem for corona ?..how did u came to that conclusion?...mdl despite going through the same problems is around 1 year late if they send the ship for trials next year...the main objective of modular construction was to reduce build time from 8-9 years to 4-5 years if the shipyards are failing to deliver that then there needs to penalties..not just it happens

Manufacturing is hard. Their are lot of problems be it technical, logistic, human, etc.
Logistics in manufacturing is all together a different ball game.
Ship building is hard and requires expertise from multiple domains.
As for modular construction, it is good for large order but for small orders like us its a question if the extra cost is worth the flexibility.
Finally I like to add modular construction needs excellent die molding technology and we lack in this domain.

 

[flanker99]

Manufacturing is hard. Their are lot of problems be it technical, logistic, human, etc.
Logistics in manufacturing is all together a different ball game.
Ship building is hard and requires expertise from multiple domains.
As for modular construction, it is good for large order but for small orders like us its a question if the extra cost is worth the flexibility.
Finally I like to add modular construction needs excellent die molding technology and we lack in this domain.

If there are genuine problems why is grse is more affected than mdl?
And what is or can be done to mitigate such things?..these shipyards arnt competitive in intl market and rely too much on navy orders to get by and there's little improvement in construction speed after so many years

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Basically looks like the replacement of OPVs which we never received from Reliance shipyard. Good this order has been placed without much fuss. It’s tonnage and it’s utility is quite high.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Fund L&T to expand their shipyard to build frigates. They churned out the OPVs very quickly for indian standards. I still dont get why it would take 5 years to commission the ship from launch.

Offshore Patrol Vessels: L&T builds faster, cheaper than Goa Shipyard

Since PM Narendra Modi inaugurated GSL's indigenous shipbuilding project in November 2016, the shipyard has handed over two OPVs to the ICG and launched the other three

www.business-standard.com

As long as the Navy isn’t complaining, we should be silent. If you remember, ASW corvette, the final one was delivered very late after the third one. It was said, Navy wanted to use more or try indigenous stuffs that it took some more designs , testing and commissioning work than necessary. It’s not that difficult to change contract terms by the Navy after contract has been awarded if the difference in cost is paid for by the navy.
Recently the only thing Navy did complain for is IAC and still complaining for is LUH and more ASW helis

 

[Indx TechStyle]

No

I'm not going to argue anymore than.

Regards

 

[Dark Sorrow]

If there are genuine problems why is grse is more affected than mdl?
And what is or can be done to mitigate such things?..these shipyards arnt competitive in intl market and rely too much on navy orders to get by and there's little improvement in construction speed after so many years

I'm not a expert in ship building.
Answering this question are outside the domain of my expertise. Hope someone else can answer them.