Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[flanker99]

Basically looks like the replacement of OPVs which we never received from Reliance shipyard. Good this order has been placed without much fuss. It’s tonnage and it’s utility is quite high.

That was added with the ngopv project of which there will be now 11 ships ...there was some talk about adding mission modules on that ship....these might be test ships for those as the name says it will serve a very wide variety of roles

 

[binayak95]

As long as the Navy isn’t complaining, we should be silent. If you remember, ASW corvette, the final one was delivered very late after the third one. It was said, Navy wanted to use more or try indigenous stuffs that it took some more designs , testing and commissioning work than necessary. It’s not that difficult to change contract terms by the Navy after contract has been awarded if the difference in cost is paid for by the navy.
Recently the only thing Navy did complain for is IAC and still complaining for is LUH and more ASW helis

Navy made the two last ASW Corvettes have composite superstructure, implemented crew reduction policies and mechanisms (to mixed effect) and experimental sonars and radars and EOIRs to great success

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

 

[omaebakabaka]

That's a misplaced rant.
Money is simply not there. Whatever money we have is a product of past 2 decades which has given us confidence to dream of producing indigenous weapons to substitute imports and make a big military at same time. The current state and modernization of military began only sometime in 2000s. It's still a big military to fend off any attack.

Nowhere freebies of government come in path of defence either. You can't spend 5% of GDP on defence in a democratic developing country. And complaining about it without reasoning is not a solution at least.

I'm not discrediting you, things; problems are not just that simple that you can explain in one line and blame it on government or armed forces. India is no Japan with industrial experiences and discipline, it's already outdoing its income levels when comes to technology and has a fairly good improvement rates in technology.

The system for the perfect evergrowing military isn't easy to develop and implement. If it was, world would have been a different place.

Rant for sure as there is a pattern across the board in Indian MIC and no one knows if the problem is GOI or Producers (DRDO/HAL or private) or Consumers (services)....my rant is not totally baseless as I have atleast decade and half experience in manufacturing plants....if there is no forecast planning then one you are fired, company will see its existence threatened in general when it comes to manufacturing for any serious companies. Product maps, and capex planning are some of the most discussed aspects that will drive upgrades of both men and machines. I am simply not seeing a major strategy from neither IAF/IN in this area looking at the threats that are forming around us and numbers are too anemic regardless of tech level (Navy is some what better but most at risk for not planning ahead).

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Rant for sure as there is a pattern across the board in Indian MIC and no one knows

my rant is not totally baseless as I have atleast decade and half experience in manufacturing plants....if there is no forecast planning then one you are fired, company will see its existence threatened in general when it comes to manufacturing for any serious companies.

I am simply not seeing a major strategy from neither IAF/IN in this area looking at the threats that are forming around us and numbers are too anemic regardless of tech level (Navy is some what better but most at risk for not planning ahead).

Problem is that you are out of the premises of defense sector, just watching how things happening till now and making an opinion on it.

You even disregard here measured IAF/IN are taking on.

Off course you may have worked in a mass manufacturing industry where forecasts are made for relatively simple identical products on basis of sales forecast (experience of which is zilch if you ever try in a heavy industry; no offense intended).

The demand of customer, willingness to release budget, government's struggles with national budgets, problems in manufacturing, procedures, QA and R&D are far complex in such projects (you would experience a little bit if you have ever worked in major heavy industry giant like L&T, Siemens or GE). The cycle time of these products, from boilers to refineries, structures, reactors, ships etc. are high due to material handling, heat treatment and controlling mechanical properties of steel too.
Like we recently had committed supplying full pipline to an upcoming critical refinery by HPCL by this December (and I personally know, 1 year delay is minimum because both theirs and ours managements sucked due to lack of experience of materials. It's been November and we have barely anything).

The opinion and judgement of outside people here as useful for authorities as the patient's advice to surgeon regarding operation.

I would love to see a debate over of technical specs and hurdles on this forum than tantrums which are baseless "just opinions".

 

[omaebakabaka]

Problem is that you are out of the premises of defense sector, just watching how things happening till now and making an opinion on it.

You even disregard here measured IAF/IN are taking on.

Off course you have worked in a mass manufacturing industry where forecasts are made for relatively simple identical products on basis of sales (experience of which is zilch if you ever try in a heavy industry; no offense intended).

The demand of customer, willingness to release budget, government's struggles with national budgets, problems in manufacturing, procedures, QA and R&D are far complex in such projects (you would experience a little bit if you have ever worked in major heavy industry giant like L&T, Siemens or GE).

The opinion and judgement of outside people here as useful for authorities as the patient's advice to surgeon regarding operation.

I am talking about seriously big chemical plants that sustain lot of things in the world from agri to plastics to medicines and others (swiss and german companies mostly), ....in any case setting my experience aside and even if its not applicable to defense, our Navy and AF growth neither correspond to threats nor the size of our economy anymore nor capabilities got multiplied with reduced platforms weighted against the threat spectrum around us. Percapita we are not the same as we used to be in some areas and generally less while the capabilities of both our main enemies is broad and strategic...Its like inflation robbing you and you suddenly realize your worth shit as you can;t easily replace anything anymore with savings. Always chasing after new class while barely getting the max out of current class is a classic waste of skills and investment

 

[flanker99]

 

[Fatalis]

The news for L1 and L2 was already in media way back in February.

Is it now coming from government sources?

We are still waiting for the contract signing of 5 FSS and 6 NGMV (for which the L1 was declared last year).

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

The news for L1 and L2 was already in media way back in February.

Is it now coming from government sources?

We are still waiting for the contract signing of 5 FSS and 6 NGMV (for which the L1 was declared last year).

BTW, FSS was on the latest import ban list, right? Is it because even though the design is Turkish we are building in our shipyards? Or is it because we are dropping the Turkish design?

 

[Fatalis]

BTW, FSS was on the latest import ban list, right? Is it because even though the design is Turkish we are building in our shipyards? Or is it because we are dropping the Turkish design?

Yes FSS is on negative import list with effect from December 2024. May be by then we will get enough technical assistance that we can build on our own.

Also, @Okabe Rintarou sir ji how exactly IN selects the L1? Do the bidder says I will provide whatever you are asking at this much price. That's it? Do IN go through designs being offered by all the bidders or they just focus on the price?

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Also, @Okabe Rintarou sir ji how exactly IN selects the L1? Do the bidder says I will provide whatever you are asking at this much price. That's it? Do IN go through designs being offered by all the bidders or they just focus on the price?

Well, any RFI and RFP has an entire questionnaire, all the parameters that Navy lists need to be replied to in detail. RFI states what minimum Navy wants and then in its reply the vendor answers what it can provide, sometimes they even offer extra over and above what Navy asks. But there are no marks for extra facilities provided I think.
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If they tick all boxes for minimum requirement, then they are asked to quote price and the one that meets all minimum requirements with the lowest price is declared L1. Detailed design of subsystems and the ship itself is not shared at this stage I think. Only the broader details are finalized.
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I think the Navy also tweaks its requirements after receiving response to the RFI. RFI are exploratory in nature and based on what the vendors can offer and based on their requirements, Navy comes up with a set of final requirements that form into the RFP.

 

[Fatalis]

Well, any RFI and RFP has an entire questionnaire, all the parameters that Navy lists need to be replied to in detail. RFI states what minimum Navy wants and then in its reply the vendor answers what it can provide, sometimes they even offer extra over and above what Navy asks. But there are no marks for extra facilities provided I think.
.
If they tick all boxes for minimum requirement, then they are asked to quote price and the one that meets all minimum requirements with the lowest price is declared L1. Detailed design of subsystems and the ship itself is not shared at this stage I think. Only the broader details are finalized.
.
I think the Navy also tweaks its requirements after receiving response to the RFI. RFI are exploratory in nature and based on what the vendors can offer and based on their requirements, Navy comes up with a set of final requirements that form into the RFP.

IN is famous for changing the requirements even during the construction.

Though I am not in any position to judge what is wrong and what is right for IN but just for the sake of discussion I think that we are selecting is the cheapest option but not the best option.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

IN is famous for changing the requirements even during the construction.

Though I am not in any position to judge what is wrong and what is right for IN but just for the sake of discussion I think that we are selecting is the cheapest option but not the best option.

There was some talk about how MoD is considering moving to L1+T1 (I think that is what it was called). Basically a system that ranks minimum requirement qualifying vendors based on not just budgetary but also on technical specifications of their product. That would remedy what you are saying. But its also susceptible to corruption is why MoD is wary of going down that route without first thinking deeply about foolproof checks and balances.

 

[Fatalis]

Not related to IN but here is the image of new 35mm cannon for AA and ASuW role of Polish Navy.

After watching the video, where USV was attacking Admiral Makarov I think a similar system should be adopted by IN.

 

[Fatalis]

Projects on anvil for IN:

Name	Quantity	Builder	Status
Fleet Support Ships	5​	HSL	Pre contract signing
NGMV	6​	CSL	Pre contract signing
NGOPV	11​	GSL + GRSE	Pre contract signing
Project 75I	6​		RFP
NGFAC	7​		RFI
LHD	4​		RFI
National Hospital Ship	1​		RFI
NGC	8​		AoN
Project 17AU	7*​		Planning
NGD	5*​		Planning
NGFIC	12*​		Planning
Cadet Training Ship	2*​		Planning
MCMV	8*​		Planning
Total	82​

* indicates the number is not fixed

Some other projects are also running in the background. They are:

1. Project 75A SSN - 6
2. S5 class SSBN - 3

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Also, @Okabe Rintarou sir ji how exactly IN selects the L1? Do the bidder says I will provide whatever you are asking at this much price. That's it? Do IN go through designs being offered by all the bidders or they just focus on the price?

Its a complicated procedure.

1. you need to demonstrate technical capabilities not limited to past experience of handling such projects
2. you need to demonstrate infrastructure capabilities
3. you need to present bank guarantee as well as present your balance sheet to prove you are financially sound to cover the cost of the project and won't go bankrupt midway
4. you must to demonstrate technology patner (design house) is ready to work with you
5. their is a quota to make sure no shipbuilder starves for order
6. pricing is managed internally for the projects buying ships is like purchase in retail or commercial domain

 

[Dark Sorrow]

IN is famous for changing the requirements even during the construction.

That is true with all armed forces
During specification layout stage things are not clear what will be needed in 5-15 years.
Mind you most weapons development projects last this long.

US DoD has addressed this by having lot of think tanks doing R&Don projected specification but then also they tend to change their specification.

This is a part of life.

 

[ezsasa]

Projects on anvil for IN:

Name	Quantity	Builder	Status
Fleet Support Ships	5​	HSL	Pre contract signing
NGMV	6​	CSL	Pre contract signing
NGOPV	11​	GSL + GRSE	Pre contract signing
Project 75I	6​		RFP
NGFAC	7​		RFI
LHD	4​		RFI
National Hospital Ship	1​		RFI
NGC	8​		AoN
Project 17AU	7*​		Planning
NGD	5*​		Planning
NGFIC	12*​		Planning
Cadet Training Ship	2*​		Planning
MCMV	8*​		Planning
Total	82​

* indicates the number is not fixed

Some other projects are also running in the background. They are:

1. Project 75A SSN - 6
2. S5 class SSBN - 3

We've emerged as lowest bidder in Indian Navy contract for procuring 11 Next Gen Offshore Patrol Vessels of which Goa Shipyard Ltd (GSL) will be building 7. : GSL chairman

 

[jai jaganath]

We've emerged as lowest bidder in Indian Navy contract for procuring 11 Next Gen Offshore Patrol Vessels of which Goa Shipyard Ltd (GSL) will be building 7. : GSL chairman

Is there any model available

 

[ezsasa]

Is there any model available

they are available on SM, usually they will be officially releasing it during the signing of the contract.
might as well take it from there.