Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[binayak95]

The PN already has AIP equipped SSK (Agostas) and the commies are making another 8 for them (Hangor class), to the IN’s exactly 0 AIP equipped SSK in service/in production

the Pakis took the ‘eat grass’ concept to heart, their military junta will get its toys

the Chinese are playing the long game indeed, ‘string of pearls’ is real and whilst it’s not been a popular term in recent years it’s very much building up. They have bases or berthing rights across the IOR now and will be routinely deploying to the IOR within the next 5-7 years

the IN seems to have already re-orientated and gone very defensive by focusing heavily on ASW but that leaves a pretty open goal to the PLA(N) to start playing in their backyard

the Agostas are grounded, with only one operational at any given time. The 8 hangors - we shall see when and how they come.
As it stands, chinese subs dont impress us one bit, we find them with hilarious predictability, in Indian ocean region and in SCS

 

[abingdonboy]

the Agostas are grounded, with only one operational at any given time. The 8 hangors - we shall see when and how they come.
As it stands, chinese subs dont impress us one bit, we find them with hilarious predictability, in Indian ocean region and in SCS

However many the PN has is infinitely more than the IN possesses, a bird in hand and all that.

Sure I’ve heard that the Chinese subs are infamous for their crudeness and sound profiles that are decades behind contemporary western platforms BUT they are throwing money and expertise at the issue and closing the gap exponentially, every 4-5 years they’ve got another class in the water taking lessons from the predecessors.

To think how it is today is how it will always be is rather arrogant and lazy.

in the meantime the IN is transforming itself into a coastal defence force, their ‘blue water’ aspirations seem to be evaporating pretty rapidly as reality bites.

SMART, MQ9 ASW, coastal defence batteries etc

 

[Rassil Krishnan]

the Agostas are grounded, with only one operational at any given time. The 8 hangors - we shall see when and how they come.
As it stands, chinese subs dont impress us one bit, we find them with hilarious predictability, in Indian ocean region and in SCS

quantity has a quality all it's own. and the ideologically pakistani minded generals in pak army will sacrifice pakistan's economy and short-term well-being to get a shot at maintaining parity.

 

[binayak95]

However many the PN has is infinitely more than the IN possesses, a bird in hand and all that.

Sure I’ve heard that the Chinese subs are infamous for their crudeness and sound profiles that are decades behind contemporary western platforms BUT they are throwing money and expertise at the issue and closing the gap exponentially, every 4-5 years they’ve got another class in the water taking lessons from the predecessors.

To think how it is today is how it will always be is rather arrogant and lazy.

in the meantime the IN is transforming itself into a coastal defence force, their ‘blue water’ aspirations seem to be evaporating pretty rapidly as reality bites.

SMART, MQ9 ASW, coastal defence batteries etc

SMART + MQ9 + P8i + Brahmos coastal battery = complete lockdown of Malacca and sunda without the need to dispatch subs and ships.

Frees up your surface and sub fleets to range through the breadth of IOR and cause havoc on chinese shipping, and/or escorting your own shipping.

Blue water navy doesnt mean you sacrifice brown water domination.

 

[binayak95]

SMART + MQ9 + P8i + Brahmos coastal battery = complete lockdown of Malacca and sunda without the need to dispatch subs and ships.

Frees up your surface and sub fleets to range through the breadth of IOR and cause havoc on chinese shipping, and/or escorting your own shipping.

Blue water navy doesnt mean you sacrifice brown water domination.

PS: the old name for ANC in the IN was Fortress Andaman; its finally becoming a real fortress.

 

[abingdonboy]

PS: the old name for ANC in the IN was Fortress Andaman; its finally becoming a real fortress.

Hope to see it, beefing up ANC has always been low hanging fruit, there’s a long way to go to fully exploiting it, even 10 years ago the place didn’t have full domain awareness with full AD or even permanent radar coverage. I do hope things have drastically change hence

 

[abingdonboy]

+ murmurs of an Indian SOSUS have been going around for some time, having a net of the system around A&N to cover all eastern choke points of the IOR seems like another no-brainer

 

[vin bharat mahan]

very unpopular opinion:- instead of buying 6 SSN in 18 billion dollars. we can make 18-20 diesel submarine in 18 billion dollars. i mean we r talking about 6 vs 18. yes we cant operate beyond indian ocean with diesel submarine. but in our indian ocean with 24 diesel submarine we hv much greater power than 6 SSN. we can make 6 SSN after completing 18 diesel submarine deal. saying this in case of navy cant fund both 18 diesel submarine nd 6 SSN. coz our 8 kilo class nd 4 german type 209 r 30-40+ years old. we hv only 6 (not all inducted yet) modern scorpion class submarine. nd if we want bombing far away from our continent, we can change our four arihant class submarine in cruise missile carrying nuclear submarine, replacing k series ballistic missile with cruise missile. like america did with its ohio class SSBN. yes, only after making six S5 series (13000 ton displacement) SSBN.

 

[skunk works]

This bloody Next Generation addendum to all and sundry needs to stop.

In India, next generation = what the west had in 1985.

 

[skunk works]

SMART + MQ9 + P8i + Brahmos coastal battery = complete lockdown of Malacca and sunda without the need to dispatch subs and ships.

Frees up your surface and sub fleets to range through the breadth of IOR and cause havoc on chinese shipping, and/or escorting your own shipping.

Blue water navy doesnt mean you sacrifice brown water domination.

I really hope IN is not planning to control an entire area without any presence. It goes against all conventional wisdom.

 

[abingdonboy]

I really hope IN is not planning to control an entire area without any presence. It goes against all conventional wisdom.

Another jugaad solution, both need to happen in parallel. A Russian bastion type concept is flawed against the kind of conventional (and unconventional) assets the PLA(N) is bringing up.

 

[abingdonboy]

very unpopular opinion:- instead of buying 6 SSN in 18 billion dollars. we can make 18-20 diesel submarine in 18 billion dollars. i mean we r talking about 6 vs 18. yes we cant operate beyond indian ocean with diesel submarine. but in our indian ocean with 24 diesel submarine we hv much greater power than 6 SSN. we can make 6 SSN after completing 18 diesel submarine deal. saying this in case of navy cant fund both 18 diesel submarine nd 6 SSN. coz our 8 kilo class nd 4 german type 209 r 30-40+ years old. we hv only 6 (not all inducted yet) modern scorpion class submarine. nd if we want bombing far away from our continent, we can change our four arihant class submarine in cruise missile carrying nuclear submarine, replacing k series ballistic missile with cruise missile. like america did with its ohio class SSBN. yes, only after making six S5 series (13000 ton displacement) SSBN.

@binayak95 articulated the need for SSN and SSK above

but to add- plans are not the issue, implementation is. The plan to have a large(ish) SSK fleet have existed for decades inside IN, today they have 6 modern SSK and they are hardly cutting edge, plans for anymore are thoroughly beyond 2035 now at best.

Project management apparently doesn’t exist inside the MoD or any of the 3 branches, they can make paper requirements only, how this translates into reality isn’t within their skill set demonstrably.

the carriers and subs are case studies for this- big plans replaced by inaction and then knee jerk/interim plans (second IAC-1, follow on P75s etc)


it won’t be long before another knee jerk decision is made (indigenous P76 class?) , then there’ll be a knee jerk reaction to that 15 years later.

stability and follow through are needed but this is too much to ask for from the geniuses that have overseen MMRCA/MRFA, P75(I), FICV, Arjun etc

 

[rohit b3]

very unpopular opinion:- instead of buying 6 SSN in 18 billion dollars. we can make 18-20 diesel submarine in 18 billion dollars. i mean we r talking about 6 vs 18. yes we cant operate beyond indian ocean with diesel submarine. but in our indian ocean with 24 diesel submarine we hv much greater power than 6 SSN. we can make 6 SSN after completing 18 diesel submarine deal. saying this in case of navy cant fund both 18 diesel submarine nd 6 SSN. coz our 8 kilo class nd 4 german type 209 r 30-40+ years old. we hv only 6 (not all inducted yet) modern scorpion class submarine. nd if we want bombing far away from our continent, we can change our four arihant class submarine in cruise missile carrying nuclear submarine, replacing k series ballistic missile with cruise missile. like america did with its ohio class SSBN. yes, only after making six S5 series (13000 ton displacement) SSBN.

2 points to that -

1. Diesel electric submarines will be a purely defensive posture or at most ..to attack Pakistan. It can operate in "Green waters" at most. It cannot even travel along with an Indian Carrier Battle Group around the IOR due to low speed and endurance. Without a Submarine cover, our Carrier Battle Groups will be vulnerable in some ways.

2. You want 18 Diesel submarines. Lets say in a parallal universe, today all sanctions are given and construction starts within 2 years in 2025. The first submarine wont entire before 2030 and even if 2 submarines are commissioned every year, all 18 submarines will only be inducted in 2039-2040. So are you saying that we start our SSN construction in 2040 and have our first SSN in 2050?
India 2040 Superpower. 3rd largest economy of 20 Trillion$. 3rd most powerful economy... ............No SSNs?

 

[abingdonboy]

2 points to that -

1. Diesel electric submarines will be a purely defensive posture or at most ..to attack Pakistan. It can operate in "Green waters" at most. It cannot even travel along with an Indian Carrier Battle Group around the IOR due to low speed and endurance. Without a Submarine cover, our Carrier Battle Groups will be vulnerable in some ways.

2. You want 18 Diesel submarines. Lets say in a parallal universe, today all sanctions are given and construction starts within 2 years in 2025. The first submarine wont entire before 2030 and even if 2 submarines are commissioned every year, all 18 submarines will only be inducted in 2039-2040. So are you saying that we start our SSN construction in 2040 and have our first SSN in 2050?
India 2040 Superpower. 3rd largest economy of 20 Trillion$. 3rd most powerful economy... ............No SSNs?

I have to add- any SSN plans are 15-20 years in nature, look at AUKUS, even with the handholding of the world’s most capable nuclear sub builders (Outside of France) the Aussies won’t be fielding their own Aussie made SSN this side of 2040.

so if T0 (official sanction) is given in 2035/40 you won’t get the first boat before 2050, by then the world will be beyond recognition of what it is today and all of us will be old men

at some point you’ve got to man up and bite the bullet, continuously kicking the can down the road is not leadership. It already looks unlikely the IN will have an SSN of their own design before 2040

 

[vin bharat mahan]

2 points to that -

1. Diesel electric submarines will be a purely defensive posture or at most ..to attack Pakistan. It can operate in "Green waters" at most. It cannot even travel along with an Indian Carrier Battle Group around the IOR due to low speed and endurance. Without a Submarine cover, our Carrier Battle Groups will be vulnerable in some ways.

2. You want 18 Diesel submarines. Lets say in a parallal universe, today all sanctions are given and construction starts within 2 years in 2025. The first submarine wont entire before 2030 and even if 2 submarines are commissioned every year, all 18 submarines will only be inducted in 2039-2040. So are you saying that we start our SSN construction in 2040 and have our first SSN in 2050?
India 2040 Superpower. 3rd largest economy of 20 Trillion$. 3rd most powerful economy... ............No SSNs?

1:- our aircraft carrier is mostly operate in indian ocean. they cant go to south china sea, due to heavy presence of chinese navy etc. nd our primary goal will be blocking pakistan nd malacca street. which can be done coz diesel submarine like scorpene hv 12000 km range nd we hv different islands (ours nd friend nations). believe me CBG hv lesser speed than diesel submarine.
2:- i said making deals final of 18 diesel submarine first. induction is other matter. we can finalize or make deal of 6 SSN after 2027-28. when we hv some money to start working in SSN. we dont hv to pay all cost in starting. 6 SSN give u 2-3 SSN servicibility. meanwhile 18 diesel submarine will give u 9-10 Submarine servicibility.
3:- why we r caring about other seas nd ocean. first we hv to make our navy submarine fleet stronger in our backyard. otherwise u will always hear crying in future that chinese SSN docked in srilanka, pakistan, Bangladesh, coco island etc etc.
i m not against SSN. but i think navy hv budget problem. if they initiate both programs, than i hv no problem.

 

[vin bharat mahan]

@binayak95 articulated the need for SSN and SSK above

but to add- plans are not the issue, implementation is. The plan to have a large(ish) SSK fleet have existed for decades inside IN, today they have 6 modern SSK and they are hardly cutting edge, plans for anymore are thoroughly beyond 2035 now at best.

Project management apparently doesn’t exist inside the MoD or any of the 3 branches, they can make paper requirements only, how this translates into reality isn’t within their skill set demonstrably.

the carriers and subs are case studies for this- big plans replaced by inaction and then knee jerk/interim plans (second IAC-1, follow on P75s etc)


it won’t be long before another knee jerk decision is made (indigenous P76 class?) , then there’ll be a knee jerk reaction to that 15 years later.

stability and follow through are needed but this is too much to ask for from the geniuses that have overseen MMRCA/MRFA, P75(I), FICV, Arjun etc

yes i also know need of SSN....but coz neither diesel submarine nd SSN projects r moving forward smoothly. so its better to excel in one department. look at south korea nd japan approch. thats why they r in better position than us. do u guys really think our 48000 ton carrier will operate outside indian ocean, with their limited capabilities. SSN is mostly for power projection in other seas. can u say or proof that one SSN will be as capable of 3-4 diesel submarine, which we can buy in 3 billion dollars??

 

[IndianHawk]

yes i also know need of SSN....but coz neither diesel submarine nd SSN projects r moving forward smoothly. so its better to excel in one department. look at south korea nd japan approch. thats why they r in better position than us. do u guys really think our 48000 ton carrier will operate outside indian ocean, with their limited capabilities. SSN is mostly for power projection in other seas. can u say or proof that one SSN will be as capable of 3-4 diesel submarine, which we can buy in 3 billion dollars??

SSN are inherently superior to ssk. They are faster , have infinite range ( only limited by food) and have infinite endurance ( no need to surface frequently hence no detection).

Japan only depends on ssk because they abhor anything nuclear and still they are trying to enhance endurance of their ssk with batteries only to mimic SSN.

Korea and Japan both are protected by usa hence could do without SSN.

 

[vin bharat mahan]

SSN are inherently superior to ssk. They are faster , have infinite range ( only limited by food) and have infinite endurance ( no need to surface frequently hence no detection).

Japan only depends on ssk because they abhor anything nuclear and still they are trying to enhance endurance of their ssk with batteries only to mimic SSN.

Korea and Japan both are protected by usa hence could do without SSN.

SSN hv advantage of greater range, higher number of weapon nd endurance. meanwhile diesel submarine excels in stealth. look at some example:-
1:- one gotland class diesel submarine defeat one american CBG in simulation war.
2:- our kilo class simulated win against american loss angels class SSN in 2015.
we hv no examples where one SSN sink SSK anywhere in world (even in exercise). do we hv any proof that SSN r better in war againt SSK.

 

[skunk works]

SSN are inherently superior to ssk. They are faster , have infinite range ( only limited by food) and have infinite endurance ( no need to surface frequently hence no detection).

Japan only depends on ssk because they abhor anything nuclear and still they are trying to enhance endurance of their ssk with batteries only to mimic SSN.

Korea and Japan both are protected by usa hence could do without SSN.

That is too broad a statement. SSKs are quieter.

 

[NutCracker]

we hv no examples where one SSN sink SSK

What examples are there of SSK sinking an SSN ?