Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[vin bharat mahan]

What examples are there of SSK sinking an SSN ?

atleast in war game nd simulation war...i gave example above.

 

[skunk works]

What examples are there of SSK sinking an SSN ?

Moot point to even argue. Only one sub is known to have killed another sub in history. Both SSK's, 80 years ago.

 

[abingdonboy]

yes i also know need of SSN....but coz neither diesel submarine nd SSN projects r moving forward smoothly. so its better to excel in one department. look at south korea nd japan approch. thats why they r in better position than us. do u guys really think our 48000 ton carrier will operate outside indian ocean, with their limited capabilities. SSN is mostly for power projection in other seas. can u say or proof that one SSN will be as capable of 3-4 diesel submarine, which we can buy in 3 billion dollars??

Sorry but you’re just wrong. SSN are for ‘power projection’? By nature subs are the silent service, they won’t be known until needed

and again, where is the issue? You’re keep saying plan for this, plan for that. If tomorrow Modi declared 18 SSK, 0 SSN, what does that change? IN hasn’t been able to even issue an RFP for the 75I in almost 10 years of this govt. maybe they’ll do so in 2025
*maybe*. If the decision is made for 18 SSK tomorrow either indigenous or imported that’s another 15+++ year idea—>reality cycle (at best

And the costs are not so disparate, the P75I speculated unit price is not far off $1bn with all the bells and whistles (Brahmos launch capability, AIP etc), an SSN is maybe 20-30% more? Once up and running SSNs are not going to cost 2-3 billion per boat as you seem to imply, not even close. The S3/4 SSBNs aren’t even anywhere near that price

so what exactly does your idea achieve? Neither costs or time savings but a severe capability deficit (SSNs can do things SSKs cannot)

 

[rohit b3]

1:- our aircraft carrier is mostly operate in indian ocean. they cant go to south china sea, due to heavy presence of chinese navy etc. nd our primary goal will be blocking pakistan nd malacca street. which can be done coz diesel submarine like scorpene hv 12000 km range nd we hv different islands (ours nd friend nations). believe me CBG hv lesser speed than diesel submarine.
2:- i said making deals final of 18 diesel submarine first. induction is other matter. we can finalize or make deal of 6 SSN after 2027-28. when we hv some money to start working in SSN. we dont hv to pay all cost in starting. 6 SSN give u 2-3 SSN servicibility. meanwhile 18 diesel submarine will give u 9-10 Submarine servicibility.
3:- why we r caring about other seas nd ocean. first we hv to make our navy submarine fleet stronger in our backyard. otherwise u will always hear crying in future that chinese SSN docked in srilanka, pakistan, Bangladesh, coco island etc etc.
i m not against SSN. but i think navy hv budget problem. if they initiate both programs, than i hv no problem.

1. Our Carrier shouldn need to operate at the Malacca Strait as the Andaman and Nicobar islands are just waiting there, with atleast 2 squadrons of fighters. And yes , Kalvari can operate there along with other Surface combatants. The Carrier will most likely be deployed around Java and Sumatra island of Indonesia. Chinese warships can sneak into the IOR from that area. Kalvari or any diesel submarine wont be able to operate so far for long.

Also a CBG will cruise at atleast 15 knots. Much faster than that in a combat zone. Submarines like Kalvari can do 12000 kms at 8 knots. At 15-20 knots its range will be no more than 3000-4000 kms.

2. Even if SSN construction starts post 2027-28, we will get our first SSN around 2038. Will still remain vulnerable upto that period. And dont forget that Chinese SSNs and other warships are already operating in the IOR.

3. IOR itself is a huge area that will need fast moving SSNs to cover/patrol. SSKs cannot do that. Further we may have to cover other Seas/Oceans a decade down the line. No idea how the geopolitical scenario will be then.

You are not completely wrong. Thats the reason that by 2040 we plan to operate 18 SSKs and only 6 SSNs. So more money on SSKs. But Zero SSNs....well...thats a dangerous idea..

 

[vin bharat mahan]

Sorry but you’re just wrong. SSN are for ‘power projection’? By nature subs are the silent service, they won’t be known until needed

and again, where is the issue? You’re keep saying plan for this, plan for that. If tomorrow Modi declared 18 SSK, 0 SSN, what does that change? IN hasn’t been able to even issue an RFP for the 75I in almost 10 years of this govt. maybe they’ll do so in 2025
*maybe*. If the decision is made for 18 SSK tomorrow either indigenous or imported that’s another 15+++ year idea—>reality cycle (at best

And the costs are not so disparate, the P75I speculated unit price is not far off $1bn with all the bells and whistles (Brahmos launch capability, AIP etc), an SSN is maybe 20-30% more? Once up and running SSNs are not going to cost 2-3 billion per boat as you seem to imply, not even close. The S3/4 SSBNs aren’t even anywhere near that price

so what exactly does your idea achieve? Neither costs or time savings but a severe capability deficit (SSNs can do things SSKs cannot)

my simple idea is instead of buying 1 ford class nuclear carrier (12 billion dollar with aircraft etc), we should buy 3-4 vikrant class non nuclear carrier (3-4 billion dollar per carrier). i m saying if we dont hv money for both (SSN nd diesel submarine) we should choose quantity now. coz out of 6 SSN only 2-3 SSN aviable for operation. meanwhile if u buy 18 diesel submarine, u hv 9-10 diesel submarine for operation. so if u guys prefer 2-3 SSN in indian ocean in that cost, i choose 9-10 diesel submarine instead. by d way government make essesment of 6 billion dollars approx for six 75i diesel submarine nd 18 billion dollars for 6 SSN. otherwise we can see australia like crazy AUKS deal also for SSN. for u guys right now (till 2035-40) other oceans operation is also important. for me right now indian ocean is most important. by my logic 18 diesel submarine is more beneficial than 6 SSN. yeah if government can afford both programme, than its best situation. i want 24 diesel submarine in navy instead of lesser number of diesel submarine nd some SSN. i know my idea is very unpopular, but lets agree to disagree.

 

[vin bharat mahan]

Sorry but you’re just wrong. SSN are for ‘power projection’? By nature subs are the silent service, they won’t be known until needed

and again, where is the issue? You’re keep saying plan for this, plan for that. If tomorrow Modi declared 18 SSK, 0 SSN, what does that change? IN hasn’t been able to even issue an RFP for the 75I in almost 10 years of this govt. maybe they’ll do so in 2025
*maybe*. If the decision is made for 18 SSK tomorrow either indigenous or imported that’s another 15+++ year idea—>reality cycle (at best

And the costs are not so disparate, the P75I speculated unit price is not far off $1bn with all the bells and whistles (Brahmos launch capability, AIP etc), an SSN is maybe 20-30% more? Once up and running SSNs are not going to cost 2-3 billion per boat as you seem to imply, not even close. The S3/4 SSBNs aren’t even anywhere near that price

so what exactly does your idea achieve? Neither costs or time savings but a severe capability deficit (SSNs can do things SSKs cannot)

just like we called aircraft carrier "power projection" ships, same we can say for SSN, SSBN also. coz they r very pricy, powerful nd only few countries hv them. so its use as geopolitics nd power projection. i mean if u sailing ur aircraft carrier, SSN or SSBN near a country. u r showing or projecting ur power.

 

[abingdonboy]

my simple idea is instead of buying 1 ford class nuclear carrier (12 billion dollar with aircraft etc), we should buy 3-4 vikrant class non nuclear carrier (3-4 billion dollar per carrier). i m saying if we dont hv money for both (SSN nd diesel submarine) we should choose quantity now. coz out of 6 SSN only 2-3 SSN aviable for operation. meanwhile if u buy 18 diesel submarine, u hv 9-10 diesel submarine for operation. so if u guys prefer 2-3 SSN in indian ocean in that cost, i choose 9-10 diesel submarine instead. by d way government make essesment of 6 billion dollars approx for six 75i diesel submarine nd 18 billion dollars for 6 SSN. otherwise we can see australia like crazy AUKS deal also for SSN. for u guys right now (till 2035-40) other oceans operation is also important. for me right now indian ocean is most important. by my logic 18 diesel submarine is more beneficial than 6 SSN. yeah if government can afford both programme, than its best situation. i want 24 diesel submarine in navy instead of lesser number of diesel submarine nd some SSN. i know my idea is very unpopular, but lets agree to disagree.

Where are you getting your numbers from? 18 billion for 6 P75A? Not even close

and please see my post above- neither is your proposal likely to save any time or much money. Even if given the green light tomorrow the first of these 18 SSK won’t be coming much earlier or much cheaper than the first P75A SSN

it’s not even clear that this is an issue of budgetary constraints, it doesn’t appear like they’ve even finalised the P75A’s design

 

[v952010]

ins vikrant and ins vikramaditya together in 2018

 

[Fatalis]

 

[Aditya Ballal]

“When the 'Angels' fly to keep you safe & the 'Falcons' are airborne with the promise that nothing will escape their sharp gaze, night or day... it's obviously time for the 'Panthers' to make an appearance. Vikramaditya, the 'Mother'- once again - happy to see her winged flock.”

 

[Corvus Splendens]

 

[Marliii]

View attachment 200738

How generous of MDL

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

View attachment 200738

If the OEM is delaying delivery of critical components and subsystems, MDL cannot do much.
The indigenzation on the Scorpenes is less than 40%.

 

[Sachinananda]

View attachment 200738

Source sirji
We will have to wait for their confirmation

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

View attachment 200738

Nothing to laugh. They gave realistic timelines. We are getting engines and sensors from France and Germany. They won’t start doing any jack until we place the order. That’s the reason why MDL and even Modi 1.0 govt tried to get navy accept 3 more scorpenes. Navy was adamant on P75I. Now they will be left with no 3 new subs nor 6 P75I.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

Nothing to laugh. They gave realistic timelines. We are getting engines and sensors from France and Germany. They won’t start doing any jack until we place the order. That’s the reason why MDL and even Modi 1.0 govt tried to get navy accept 3 more scorpenes. Navy was adamant on P75I. Now they will be left with no 3 new subs nor 6 P75I.

I don't see this mess being solved in six years. Navy will get their AIP in a few years.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

I don't see this mess being solved in six years. Navy will get their AIP in a few years.

You are being kind in saying they will resolve the mess in 6 years
Anyway most of the problems would have been solved had the govt placed the non used funds for armed forces every year in an non lapsable account. That money itself with interest would have been an blessing in disguise for the armed forces.
All capital equipment purchase were pushed down from 2004-2014 and now everything is broke and we don’t know which leaking hole to fix. AF wants more funds and so rightly. So does Navy for subs, helis and aircraft’s. Army, I don’t even want to start.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

You are being kind in saying they will resolve the mess in 6 years
Anyway most of the problems would have been solved had the govt placed the non used funds for armed forces every year in an non lapsable account. That money itself with interest would have been an blessing in disguise for the armed forces.
All capital equipment purchase were pushed down from 2004-2014 and now everything is broke and we don’t know which leaking hole to fix. AF wants more funds and so rightly. So does Navy for subs, helis and aircraft’s. Army, I don’t even want to start.

Redirect Army's unspent budget each year to AF and Navy and see the seething begin.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Redirect Army's unspent budget each year to AF and Navy and see the seething begin.

Well Army is having issues too. Just the artillery programme is worth in billions. The artillery is ready, but I really don’t know who is the problem here, Army or the MoD or MoF. Then there is FICV another billions of contract. LCH is ready, but no clearance from govt. The only good thing is thanks to China (but even before that) govt is spending a lot on border infrastructures that includes upgrades army bases, jackets, helmets and now new guns.

 

[abingdonboy]

View attachment 200738

Joke is on the IN/citizen of India. Had IN dropped their fantasy dream of P75I 6 years ago they’d have a seamless delivery schedule for SSK, as it stands they have 0 SSK or SSN in production as of today (or for the rest of the 2020s)

additional P75s with slight modifications was always the most obvious solution given the effort taken to create the infrastructure at MDL, throwing it all away and starting from scratch with P75I……I don’t even have words for this kind of negligence other than the fact it is criminal. Of course admirals/babus/politicians rotate/move on but the consequences of their f@@@ ups linger for generations.

After the 6th Scorpene is inducted the IN won’t be inducting any non-SSBN subs this side of 2030, just marvellous leadership from all parties