Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[abingdonboy]

I do not agree with you assessment. Chinese are very careful planners. I have direct experience.

If they say something, they mean it.

It is certain that the threat is current, and not something that will come in 12-15 years.

I also do not agree that 1-2 P15A will wreck entire PN. These are over-optimistic comments.

The Chinese may be good planners but it is meaningless, they are tied down in the SCS right now and for the forseeable future with little bluewater capabilties. Even their aircraft carrier has to be followed around with tug boats as it stands.

By the time the Chinese are ready to push into the IOR the IN will be more than ready to repel them (12-15 years at least).

 

[Illusive]

The Chinese may be good planners but it is meaningless, they are tied down in the SCS right now and for the forseeable future with little bluewater capabilties. Even their aircraft carrier has to be followed around with tug boats as it stands.

By the time the Chinese are ready to push into the IOR the IN will be more than ready to repel them (12-15 years at least).

They are building a naval base right now in Djibouti, Africa.

 

[abingdonboy]

They are building a naval base right now in Djibouti, Africa.

I'm aware but that doesn't change much. They have genuine interests to protect in that part of the world but their presence will be minimal, their hands are full in their own bak yard as of now and the IN is hardly sat still, they are building up the ANC, have berthing rights in Oman and are expanding ties with VN and PH.

 

[salute]

The cost is quite high. This world class swagger can get destroyed in one day in actual war.

The defence projects need audit and cost controls.

how about this,

.......................................................................................................

 

[garg_bharat]

The Chinese may be good planners but it is meaningless, they are tied down in the SCS right now and for the forseeable future with little bluewater capabilties. Even their aircraft carrier has to be followed around with tug boats as it stands.

By the time the Chinese are ready to push into the IOR the IN will be more than ready to repel them (12-15 years at least).

This pattern could well be adopted in the future with many other countries, especially since official Chinese publications including Xinhua have advocated and "advised" the PLA Navy to build as many as 18 overseas naval military bases in the greater Indian Ocean area, possibly including: Chongjin port (North Korea), Moresby port (Papua New Guinea), Sihanoukville port (Cambodia), Koh Lanta port (Thailand), Sittwe port (Myanmar), Dhaka port (Bangladesh), Gwadar port (Pakistan), Hambantota port (Sri Lanka), Maldives, Seychelles, Djibouti port (Djibouti), Lagos port (Nigeria), Mombasa port (Kenya), Dar-es-Salaam port (Tanzania), Luanda port (Angola) and the Walvis Bay port (Namibia).

http://www.sunday-guardian.com/analysis/china-eyes-18-overseas-naval-bases

China can use Sittwe and Gwadar at a short notice.

 

[garg_bharat]

It is for a complete boat but a FAR less capable boat- less advanced sensors, far smaller, less impressive weaponary. The $1.3BN for the P-17As from 2022 is reasonable, $1BN for upgraded Talwars is a cr@p deal.

Fair. I did not say you buy from Russia. I am talking of three unfinished boats which they want to offload. You and me are talking about different things.

I favour local shipbuilding. A Frigate design that can be mass produced by three-four shipyards in parallel is far better for India.

 

[salute]

Fair. I did not say you buy from Russia. I am talking of three unfinished boats which they want to offload. You and me are talking about different things.

I favour local shipbuilding. A Frigate design that can be mass produced by three-four shipyards in parallel is far better for India.

no it takes a day for it to get destroyed at actual war.

 

[garg_bharat]

no it takes a day for it to get destroyed at actual war.

India has very little experience of naval wars. So I will take your swagger with aplomb.
India has a poor strategic culture. There is more chance of making mistake.

 

[rohit b3]

Please take a look at this wiki page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FREMM_multipurpose_frigate

Well, again ordered long back with the first Frigate commissioned in 2012..10-11 years before the first Project 17A.
And importantly - 21 have been ordered. Economies of scale help bring down the cost of each unit.

 

[Anikastha]

ID this system ......

View attachment 7953

Mareech....I think so.....Mareech is an anti-torpedo system.
30 char.
..
..
..
..

 

[garg_bharat]

Well, again ordered long back with the first Frigate commissioned in 2012..10-11 years before the first Project 17A.
And importantly - 21 have been ordered. Economies of scale help bring down the cost of each unit.

Nobody stops IN to order 21 if each is priced at half of 1.3B. IN can also reach economies of scale.
Please note that timeframe is not an issue as labour cost in Europe of 2012 will not be reached in India of 2022.

 

[garg_bharat]

My point is very simple, India needs large number of "Frigates", a small ship (say 4000T) with good ASW and Anti-ship but short-to-medium SAMs for escort duties. India may need dozens of such ships. The Coast Guard ships are not adequate for this duty, and heavily armed ships are overkill.

 

[Superdefender]

My point is very simple, India needs large number of "Frigates", a small ship (say 4000T) with good ASW and Anti-ship but short-to-medium SAMs for escort duties. India may need dozens of such ships. The Coast Guard ships are not adequate for this duty, and heavily armed ships are overkill.

You are forgetting about P28A Corvettes. They are designed primarily for taking down subs. IN has ordered more too. Our ASW capabilities will only increase from now on.

 

[rohit b3]

Nobody stops IN to order 21 if each is priced at half of 1.3B. IN can also reach economies of scale.
Please note that timeframe is not an issue as labour cost in Europe of 2012 will not be reached in India of 2022.

Well, then there's no limit...21..30..50..100 ...more the ships..per unit cost would go down.
And labor cost is not the only factor, i hope you know that.
Look at the Shivalik Class Frigates, commissioned in 2010 after much delays and cost overuns ..but just 340mil$ each. And just a small order for 3 ships.
Yes, Shivalik is a generation behind but ...a Project 17A at that date would cost about double..700mil$...even for a order of 3 ships. Large orders like FREMM would furthur reduce the cost by at least 20-25% per ship.

And yes, I share your concern about more "4000 tons" class Frigates. I believe if the IN wanted to, and i hope they do, is that continue with the rumored Project 28A , Kamorta follow ons. Slightly larger than the 3400 tons(Full) Kamorta Class...definitely much more advanced, ordered in large numbers with 8 x BrahMos and powerful ASW capabilities along with 16-24 Maitree SAMs.. Though im not sure if the Revathi radar on these ships can be integrated with the BrahMos.
About 12 Project 28A along with about 20 planned ~1000 tons Next Generation Missile Vessels would solve that purpose.

 

[MKM]

That is what I am asking. If sensors, weapons, helicopters are same, why not increase size by another 1000 ton, so that ship has higher endurance. How much difference in cost will it make - 5%. And is somebody forcing Navy to call these Frigate??

Can you tell me what is cost of design?
Increasing weight means a completely new design, what will be new cost?

 

[MKM]

What price are they quoting?? Anyway a half built ship cannot be very expensive, if you are referring to three they are unable to complete. If Navy is smart, it can allow an Indian shipyard like LT to import these unfinished boats and complete here. This way they learn as well Navy gets three extra boats.

Your L&T doesn't have capability to do that job, if you don't know what is price Russia quoting then you shouldn't advise navy, should you?

 

[MKM]

Please read:

"The critics make a valid point. With a peacetime mission comprising primarily constabulary, humanitarian assistance, and diplomatic flag flying, the Indian Navy is unlikely to find ships of the size of Kochi of much use for the missions it is required to perform in the Indian Ocean. With the bulk of its operational energies spent in conducting coastal security and non-combatant evacuation missions – such as the operation in Yemen earlier this year – the Navy already has a problem of sophisticated warships carrying out low-end constabulary and benign tasks. The suggestion then that instead of large redundant war-vessels, India must focus on building light frigates, patrol boats, and utility craft for surveillance and constabulary duties does appear to have some merit.
"
http://thediplomat.com/2015/10/the-indian-navy-and-the-battleship-debate/

The cost data you have provided has no meaning now, as the cost has escalated to USA standard as per your table.

What is use of overweight Kamortas & OPVs?

My question is where are the escort ships? If there is a war tomorrow, and commercial shipping needs escorts, how many can Navy provide??

And why Navy is so slow on Mine-sweeping ships??

Yes, MCMVs are delayed, do you think navy or UPA was responsible for that?

Please take a look at this wiki page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FREMM_multipurpose_frigate

The amount for the FREMM frigate for Egypt is based on a price of some €800 million per ship that France will pay for its order for eight of the new warships, the source said. That figure does not include maintenance.
http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...e-fremm-dcns-rafale-export-corvette/23674673/

 

[MKM]

There is a difference between a destroyer and a frigate. A destroyer is primary combatant in anti-ship and anti-sub warfare. A Frigate is basically an escort ship.

Frigate (FFG): There are only 22 frigates left in the Oliver Hazard Perry Class, with these ships intended to be replaced by the new LCS's. Frigates were designed mainly as a cost effective and relatively inexpensive escort platform that could protect merchants convoys, supply ships, as well as expeditionary and amphibious forces. They are smaller than destroyers and do not have the same degree of missile-launching capability.
https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-dif...estroyer-a-frigate-and-a-littoral-combat-ship

If you say that it is a destroyer, than question is where are the frigates? Why Navy is not building lower cost frigates?

Navy is building 12 4XP28+8XP28A corvettes which are larger than F-22P Zulfiquar-class frigate & many more OPVs.

Frigates do not need long range Sam. Frigate should have gun and anti ship missiles, and basic asw.

These frigates are overbuilt, but lack both range and aviation. Such frigate cannot lead a group. So it is still limited by its size while brimming with weapons, which it may never use.

OK, P17A is neither destroyer nor frigate but navy want to call it frigate... what is your problem then?
Are you adviser to IN so that you have tell IN that they should have anti-ship & ASW frigate not AAW capabilities?
What will be use of NGMVs?

India is a low cost manufacturer, including engineering.
There is no reason why the ship must cost so much.

In defence projects indigenization does mean low cost, India is low cost manufacturer when labor cost is high in manufacturing... In almost all of the projects cost has been low in India, even Talwar class costed 635 million in 2010 then what will be cost of P17A?
You compared F-22P Zulfiquar-class frigate 3,144 tonnes full load with stealth 6700 tonnes P28A(Most probably Nilgiri class).

 

[salute]

India has very little experience of naval wars. So I will take your swagger with aplomb.
India has a poor strategic culture. There is more chance of making mistake.

okay, admiral-general-air marshal you know the best,

so pakis must got great knowledge of naval warfare more than india,

and even chinese who dont know how to use aircraft carrier while india is using aircraft carrier for more than 55 years,

but even then chinese gonna destroy indias navy at just one day,

or mistake is taking your word and not building the navy.

 

[salute]

What is use of overweight Kamortas & OPVs?

they are built that way for high endurance at sea.