Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[abingdonboy]

Well, again ordered long back with the first Frigate commissioned in 2012..10-11 years before the first Project 17A.
And importantly - 21 have been ordered. Economies of scale help bring down the cost of each unit.

21 what have been ordered bro?

 

[abingdonboy]

My point is very simple, India needs large number of "Frigates", a small ship (say 4000T) with good ASW and Anti-ship but short-to-medium SAMs for escort duties. India may need dozens of such ships. The Coast Guard ships are not adequate for this duty, and heavily armed ships are overkill.

Do you know about the OPVs the IN is inducting? Saryu class is already in service, the Pipav NOPVs are to begin induction this year. Their explicit purpose is escort and constabulary duties. Furthermore the IN is inducting ASW corvettes with huge endurance.

Do NOT forget that most of the current issues with large vessels being under utilised by having to perform coastal security duties is a DIRECT consequence of 26/11 and by 2022 the IN will hand back this responsibility to the ICG. it is a short term nusiance that will be gone soon enough, the IN doesn't need to downgrade their abilities simply to cater to short term demands, they are far too foreward thinking for that. It's why they have inducting NOPVs on a fast track manner but only in limited numbers.

The IN has a very comprehensive plan in place (their 10 year propective plan) and are working to it. I trust them enourmously- these chaps in white know what they are doing. if the babus would get out of their way things would be ticking along nicely.

 

[rohit b3]

21 what have been ordered bro?

FREMM Frigates- France -9 , Italy -10 and one each for Morocco and Egypt.

 

[aditya g]

...
"The critics make a valid point. With a peacetime mission comprising primarily constabulary, humanitarian assistance, and diplomatic flag flying, the Indian Navy is unlikely to find ships of the size of Kochi of much use for the missions it is required to perform in the Indian Ocean. With the bulk of its operational energies spent in conducting coastal security and non-combatant evacuation missions – such as the operation in Yemen earlier this year – the Navy already has a problem of sophisticated warships carrying out low-end constabulary and benign tasks. The suggestion then that instead of large redundant war-vessels, []India must focus on building light frigates, patrol boats, and utility craft for surveillance and constabulary duties does appear to have some merit.
"

.... and When war comes we will pull out destroyers and frigates using magic? Or maybe ask China to manufacture some for us in a couple of days.

 

[Superdefender]

So there are 6 SSBNs in S-5 series. I was earlier thinking only 5. Good going. But so much SSBNs! We have to double our SSN force to 12.

 

[garg_bharat]

Can you tell me what is cost of design?
Increasing weight means a completely new design, what will be new cost?

India already has the design. The frigate and destroyer have JUST 1000 ton difference. Check specs before posting.

 

[garg_bharat]

Do you know about the OPVs the IN is inducting? Saryu class is already in service, the Pipav NOPVs are to begin induction this year. Their explicit purpose is escort and constabulary duties. Furthermore the IN is inducting ASW corvettes with huge endurance.

Do NOT forget that most of the current issues with large vessels being under utilised by having to perform coastal security duties is a DIRECT consequence of 26/11 and by 2022 the IN will hand back this responsibility to the ICG. it is a short term nusiance that will be gone soon enough, the IN doesn't need to downgrade their abilities simply to cater to short term demands, they are far too foreward thinking for that. It's why they have inducting NOPVs on a fast track manner but only in limited numbers.

The IN has a very comprehensive plan in place (their 10 year propective plan) and are working to it. I trust them enourmously- these chaps in white know what they are doing. if the babus would get out of their way things would be ticking along nicely.

My posts are not directly connected with the linked article. So if you are reacting to the article, no need.

Coast guard ship are not designed for wartime escort duty. Coast guard operates in EEZ. Escort ships go everywhere. Escort ships are more likely to face a hostile Navy or Air Force, so have to be suitably armed.

I think Navy has lost its way, just like Air Force. Navy is no longer working according to its original thinking. The import content of ships is inching up rather than inching down. BMS and sensors are being imported.

 

[garg_bharat]

.... and When war comes we will pull out destroyers and frigates using magic? Or maybe ask China to manufacture some for us in a couple of days.

The number of fighting ships India has is a fraction of China's. Just read Wikipedia pages, and come back.
China can throw an overwhelming number of ships and subs at India.

A ship may have more capability but the number also matters as sea is VAST.

 

[Gessler]

So there are 6 SSBNs in S-5 series. I was earlier thinking only 5. Good going. But so much SSBNs! We have to double our SSN force to 12.

Actually, the most conservative number of S-5s that I can think of is just 3. But if it's more than that, there can be no one happier than me.

About SSNs, it is clear that we will eventually have more than 6. The project didn't even start as yet, we have lots of time to decide on future orders (on top of these six). You need 1 SSN to defend each SSBN/SSGN (3 for Arihant-class, atleast another 3 for future S-5 class), plus atleast 1 SSN is always needed to escort a CBG as it's underwater leg.

Plus atleast a few for independent hunter-killer patrols. Eventually, you can expect to have anywhere between 12 and 18 SSNs.

 

[MKM]

they are built that way for high endurance at sea.

That was not question but answer, I was saying Kamortas & OPVs can be used in Yemen like situation where heavily armed ships are not needed.

 

[MKM]

21 what have been ordered bro?

He was talking about price of FREMM that price of FREMM is much lower than P17A but that is wrong in 2014 or 15 Egypt ordered some frigates for more than 800 euro so you find difference between P17A & FREMM.

 

[MKM]

India already has the design. The frigate and destroyer have JUST 1000 ton difference. Check specs before posting.

Which design?
There is something called upgradation.

Oh wait compare price of Type 26 with P17A, while everyone knows Type 26 is inferior to P17A which also before P17A & include inflation.
Do you know Type 26 was offered to IN but rejected by IN in favor of P17A.

 

[Superdefender]

Actually, the most conservative number of S-5s that I can think of is just 3. But if it's more than that, there can be no one happier than me.

About SSNs, it is clear that we will eventually have more than 6. The project didn't even start as yet, we have lots of time to decide on future orders (on top of these six). You need 1 SSN to defend each SSBN/SSGN (3 for Arihant-class, atleast another 3 for future S-5 class), plus atleast 1 SSN is always needed to escort a CBG as it's underwater leg.

Plus atleast a few for independent hunter-killer patrols. Eventually, you can expect to have anywhere between 12 and 18 SSNs.

@Gessler, there was a report in idrw.org yesterday that S-5 series will be a family of 6 much larger SSBNs. Check that.

 

[garg_bharat]

Which design?
There is something called upgradation.

Oh wait compare price of Type 26 with P17A, while everyone knows Type 26 is inferior to P17A which also before P17A & include inflation.
Do you know Type 26 was offered to IN but rejected by IN in favor of P17A.

First of all inflation is calculated in Indian currency, and not foreign currency. Inflation is very low in Euro or dollar. So higher cost in dollar MUST come from something else.

Second, if most of ship is of local origin, then rupee component should be in control.

How is P17A better than Type 26??

And specs should be based on requirements. This "best" business is superfluous.
India is not yet rich enough to afford the "best".

 

[Gessler]

@Gessler, there was a report in idrw.org yesterday that S-5 series will be a family of 6 much larger SSBNs. Check that.

Already seen, but you should know to take IDRW news with a pinch of salt. It's probably the biggest loose-mouth source out there. And Ajai Shukla.

You'll know to discern sources if you keep following defence news for a couple years.

 

[abingdonboy]

I think Navy has lost its way, just like Air Force. Navy is no longer working according to its original thinking.

I don't think this is even remotely true, in fact I see the opposite. The IN has a long term plan and are executing it very well. Most of the issues they have are directly related to the babus and are not of their making.

The import content of ships is inching up rather than inching down. BMS and sensors are being imported.

Well this isn't strictly true is it?

The P-15A (based on the P-15 hull obviously) has a far higher indigenous content than its predecessor.


By the IN's own admission though they are still dependant on foreign tech and are actively working on this. By their own parlance, in "float", "move" and "fight" they are almost 100% on the "float" element, rather high in the "move" but not ideally placed but lagging in the "fight" segment (sensors and weapons) but as you can see from the diagram above they are indigenising the foreign "fight" segments (MF-STAR for example) and BARAK-8 is a JV as Miatri will be.


The IN has actively set a 90% target for all three segements within 10-15%. The IN is in a whole different league to the other services, do you ever here the other services openly bragging about "Make in India" and their plans to become fully self-sufficent?


You seem to be looking for reasons to attack the IN but are being very unfair and leaving yourself on shaky ground.

 

[abingdonboy]

The number of fighting ships India has is a fraction of China's. Just read Wikipedia pages, and come back.
China can throw an overwhelming number of ships and subs at India.

And how many can they deploy into the IOR? THAT is the real question, not how many ships they have outright. A lot of them are very short legged and the PLA(N) actually has a very limited and comprimised bluewater/power projection capabilty. Even their most capable power projection asset- their AC- has to be accompanied with ocean going tugs such is its reliability as for its airwing, the less said about that the better.

Meanwhile, the Vikramditya has been in full operational service for a few years now and has been on numerous conventional deployments as a full fledged military asset.

By the time the PLA(N) are in a postion to enter the IOR in any meaningful manner (easily 12-15 years away) the IN WILL be more than able to repel them- they are laying the foundations for this today.

Addtionally, I would place much more trust in the IN's proffesional cabapilties than the Chinese, the IN is a fully modern outfit with oodles of expertise, the PLA(N) are just taking baby steps in many areas now and are doing so alone so their learning curve is going to be very steep and will have no way of being flattened by assistance from friends.

 

[abingdonboy]

Actually, the most conservative number of S-5s that I can think of is just 3. But if it's more than that, there can be no one happier than me.

About SSNs, it is clear that we will eventually have more than 6. The project didn't even start as yet, we have lots of time to decide on future orders (on top of these six). You need 1 SSN to defend each SSBN/SSGN (3 for Arihant-class, atleast another 3 for future S-5 class), plus atleast 1 SSN is always needed to escort a CBG as it's underwater leg.

Plus atleast a few for independent hunter-killer patrols. Eventually, you can expect to have anywhere between 12 and 18 SSNs.

I agree with all of the above but SSNs in large numbers are imperative and without them the IN's SSBNs are rather vulnerable, not to mention the IN's ASW capabilty rather constricted (at a time when it is trying to expand this expertise).

As you say, the project hasn't even begun as of yet so how long will it take for the first SSN to be built, fully tested and in service? Easily a decade (at best), by that time there will be 5-6 SSBNs and 2 (maybe even 3) CBGs. SO how long will it take for 10 SSNs to be in service? 20-25 years (unless there is some clever production like with the P-17As ie parrell production lines).

I fully expect the SSN's delays to be attributable to the UPA (as were the delays in the P-17A clearances) but it doesn't change the fact that this is a serious issue that won't be resolved for a long, LONG, time.

 

[Anupu]

I don't think this is even remotely true, in fact I see the opposite. The IN has a long term plan and are executing it very well. Most of the issues they have are directly related to the babus and are not of their making.


Well this isn't strictly true is it?

The P-15A (based on the P-15 hull obviously) has a far higher indigenous content than its predecessor.


By the IN's own admission though they are still dependant on foreign tech and are actively working on this. By their own parlance, in "float", "move" and "fight" they are almost 100% on the "float" element, rather high in the "move" but not ideally placed but lagging in the "fight" segment (sensors and weapons) but as you can see from the diagram above they are indigenising the foreign "fight" segments (MF-STAR for example) and BARAK-8 is a JV as Miatri will be.


The IN has actively set a 90% target for all three segements within 10-15%. The IN is in a whole different league to the other services, do you ever here the other services openly bragging about "Make in India" and their plans to become fully self-sufficent?


You seem to be looking for reasons to attack the IN but are being very unfair and leaving yourself on shaky ground.

Any idea on the status of Maitri missile?

 

[abingdonboy]

How is P17A better than Type 26??

This has been explained a few pages back.

And specs should be based on requirements. This "best" business is superfluous.
India is not yet rich enough to afford the "best".

This is such faulty logic, the IN CAN afford such beasts so it should buy them. You are the one beating on about the huge threat being faced from the PLA(N) and there is NO way that the IN can match them for numbers, just like the USN couldn't with the USSR, so instead the best course of action is to go for FORCE MULTIPLIERS which is exactly what the P-17A is. Just as the PLAAF have nothing that can match the Rafale (not for the nect 15 years), the PLA(N) will be able to send nothing into the IOR for the forseeable future that can rival IN CBGs, P-17As and P-15A/B.