Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[garg_bharat]

I have already told P17-A frigates are 6,000 tn Destroyers disguised as Frigates. Their arnaments will be atleast same as those of P15B Destroyers. How will they be oversized and less effective?

There is a difference between a destroyer and a frigate. A destroyer is primary combatant in anti-ship and anti-sub warfare. A Frigate is basically an escort ship.

Frigate (FFG): There are only 22 frigates left in the Oliver Hazard Perry Class, with these ships intended to be replaced by the new LCS's. Frigates were designed mainly as a cost effective and relatively inexpensive escort platform that could protect merchants convoys, supply ships, as well as expeditionary and amphibious forces. They are smaller than destroyers and do not have the same degree of missile-launching capability.
https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-dif...estroyer-a-frigate-and-a-littoral-combat-ship

If you say that it is a destroyer, than question is where are the frigates? Why Navy is not building lower cost frigates?

 

[abingdonboy]

I am sure the government also wants to find out why these ships are costing so much?

What has happened between 2004 and 2014?

The P-17A is FAR more advanced than the P-17s (better sensors, better weapons, more automation etc etc) and hence will cost that bit more plus they are being built almost 15 years later.

 

[abingdonboy]

$ 1.3 Billion each for follow-on orders of almost the same design as P17 using so-called modular construction methods in a low-cost country like India - not cheap. P15 has a much powerful radar system (MF-STAR) than P17A, more multi-role capabilities, more tonnage. Arleigh Burke class DDG with Aegis costs around $ 1.8 Billion. Let's hope they are inducted on time in 2022.

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A lot ot wrong assumptions here. The P-17As will have an almost identical sensor suite to the P-15As but will have some far newer tech built in also and hence why the price differential between the P-15A and P-17A is negligable.

 

[Gessler]

I'd say the P-17As will carry an equal number of weapons as the P-15As but not the P-15Bs and the P-17As may have a 127mm main gun (like the P-15B) and should have a new generation gun CIWS (replacing the AK-306)..

I had BrahMos in mind (x16 on P-15A, x8 on P-17A). About SAMs, yeah they have the same number of ready-to-fire rounds in VLS cells (32).

 

[garg_bharat]

Let's not forget, these are price projections for ships that will enter service starting 2022 and thus take into account inflation. Does anyone else think you'll be able to get a >6,500 ton frigate with these kind of sensors and weapons for less than $1.3BN each in 2022? The West would be charging at least 25-30% more.


What do you mean by "aviation"?


Automation is already being increased with each passing generation.

See my last post about why I think this concept is defective. Destroyers/cruisers are bigger and can carry more helicopters. Helicopters help in standalone operation of this kind of ship.

A Frigate has less range (shorter legs). Why not build a 8000 ton ship that can take more fuel and supplies? How much cost difference will be there if weapons and sensors are same??

 

[garg_bharat]

My question is where are the escort ships? If there is a war tomorrow, and commercial shipping needs escorts, how many can Navy provide??

And why Navy is so slow on Mine-sweeping ships??

 

[abingdonboy]

See my last post about why I think this concept is defective. Destroyers/cruisers are bigger and can carry more helicopters. Helicopters help in standalone operation of this kind of ship.

A Frigate has less range (shorter legs). Why not build a 8000 ton ship that can take more fuel and supplies? How much cost difference will be there if weapons and sensors are same??

The P-17As, like the P-15A/B destroyers have 2 hangers for 2 ASW helos.

As for making them bigger, as firgates they are already oversized for long range endurance (P-17As will be >6,500 tons, this is destroyer size in many navies). Making them bigger would incur cost penalties.

 

[abingdonboy]

My question is where are the escort ships? If there is a war tomorrow, and commercial shipping needs escorts, how many can Navy provide??

That's the job of frigates and perhaps why the IN is seriously looking at 2-5 more Talwars straight from Russia but then the price the Russians are quoting is mental so it may never happen.

 

[garg_bharat]

The P-17As, like the P-15A/B destroyers have 2 hangers for 2 ASW helos.

As for making them bigger, as firgates they are already oversized for long range endurance (P-17As will be >6,500 tons, this is destroyer size in many navies). Making them bigger would incur cost penalties.

That is what I am asking. If sensors, weapons, helicopters are same, why not increase size by another 1000 ton, so that ship has higher endurance. How much difference in cost will it make - 5%. And is somebody forcing Navy to call these Frigate??

 

[garg_bharat]

That's the job of frigates and perhaps why the IN is seriously looking at 2-5 more Talwars straight from Russia but then the price the Russians are quoting is mental so it may never happen.

India will need 40+ Frigate size ships if the nightmare two front war happens. There will be lot of Chinese patrol subs firing at Indian ships.

Commercial ships need escorts, that is why Frigates are bought. A Frigate does not need long range SAM. Other systems need not be in cruiser/destroyer category either.

 

[garg_bharat]

That's the job of frigates and perhaps why the IN is seriously looking at 2-5 more Talwars straight from Russia but then the price the Russians are quoting is mental so it may never happen.

What price are they quoting?? Anyway a half built ship cannot be very expensive, if you are referring to three they are unable to complete. If Navy is smart, it can allow an Indian shipyard like LT to import these unfinished boats and complete here. This way they learn as well Navy gets three extra boats.

 

[garg_bharat]

My fear is that navy has become too much Pakistan centric. It is not able to plan for sea denial strategy of China.

China has very sound strategy of sea denial and very large resources. If Indian Navy keeps on throwing money like this, it may find itself in big trouble.

LRMR aircrafts is not a complete solution to this problem. Surface combatants are necessary.

India has to import oil and minerals for its economy. This cannot stop. The shipping is a vital need of the economy.

The primary objective of Navy should be to keep sea lanes open for India's trade.

 

[abingdonboy]

What price are they quoting?? Anyway a half built ship cannot be very expensive, if you are referring to three they are unable to complete. If Navy is smart, it can allow an Indian shipyard like LT to import these unfinished boats and complete here. This way they learn as well Navy gets three extra boats.

About $1-1.1BN each- for 4,000 ton frigates

My fear is that navy has become too much Pakistan centric. It is not able to plan for sea denial strategy of China.

China has very sound strategy of sea denial and very large resources. If Indian Navy keeps on throwing money like this, it may find itself in big trouble.

LRMR aircrafts is not a complete solution to this problem. Surface combatants are necessary.

India has to import oil and minerals for its economy. This cannot stop. The shipping is a vital need of the economy.

I don't think so, they were just constrained by resources in recent times but they are changing their approach, 7 P-17As will be built vs only 3 P-17s.

The PLA(N) don't present a credible threat in the IOR and by the time the do (12-15 years times) the IN will be in a far better position. Sea Denial only works in the SCS and the IN has little interest in the SCS.

I don't think the IN has become too "Pak focused" at all- the ICG alone has more tonnage than that joke of a force, 1-2 P-15As would wreck havoc to their entire navy. The P-17As are being built explcitly for the Chinese.

 

[Superdefender]

@garg_bharat,
The term "Frigate" are given for political reasons. The word "Destroyer"
is more war-like. If you are constructing only destroyers after destroyers,
then neighborhood countries will be worry. That's why disguise them as
Frigates.
And all systems/weapons of P15 series destroyers will be transferred to
P17A Frigates. Means you are packing all stuffs of a 7,500tn ship into a
6,000tn ship with better sensors, with same MF-STAR, with equal arnaments.
And you will add superior stealth to it, give it maximum automation, still
plan to induct it after 2022. Like I said, cost increases year after year like
GDP of a country increases. See INS Vishakapatnam costs $1.3 billion in today's
price. And ship, with same capability but displaces 6,000tn, but costs the same
$1.3 billion in 2022 price frame. Still if you think this is overpriced, then I
can't explain it to you anymore.

 

[garg_bharat]

Please read:

"The critics make a valid point. With a peacetime mission comprising primarily constabulary, humanitarian assistance, and diplomatic flag flying, the Indian Navy is unlikely to find ships of the size of Kochi of much use for the missions it is required to perform in the Indian Ocean. With the bulk of its operational energies spent in conducting coastal security and non-combatant evacuation missions – such as the operation in Yemen earlier this year – the Navy already has a problem of sophisticated warships carrying out low-end constabulary and benign tasks. The suggestion then that instead of large redundant war-vessels, India must focus on building light frigates, patrol boats, and utility craft for surveillance and constabulary duties does appear to have some merit.
"
http://thediplomat.com/2015/10/the-indian-navy-and-the-battleship-debate/

The cost data you have provided has no meaning now, as the cost has escalated to USA standard as per your table.

 

[garg_bharat]

About $1-1.1BN each- for 4,000 ton frigates


I don't think so, they were just constrained by resources in recent times but they are changing their approach, 7 P-17As will be built vs only 3 P-17s.

The PLA(N) don't present a credible threat in the IOR and by the time the do (12-15 years times) the IN will be in a far better position. Sea Denial only works in the SCS and the IN has little interest in the SCS.

I don't think the IN has become too "Pak focused" at all- the ICG alone has more tonnage than that joke of a force, 1-2 P-15As would wreck havoc to their entire navy. The P-17As are being built explcitly for the Chinese.

I do not agree with you assessment. Chinese are very careful planners. I have direct experience.

If they say something, they mean it.

It is certain that the threat is current, and not something that will come in 12-15 years.

I also do not agree that 1-2 P15A will wreck entire PN. These are over-optimistic comments.

 

[garg_bharat]

Price - is it for unfinished boat or for a complete boat with weapons? If it is for a complete boat, then it is not far for India's own pricing.

 

[Superdefender]

@garg_bharat, really light weight frigates and patrol boats!! And what is the source? OMG, Diplomat, so you take these foreign sites for granted...suits you.

And you saw only cost increase of India's Destroyers! Take into consideration rival ships too in that table.

 

[abingdonboy]

Please read:

"The critics make a valid point. With a peacetime mission comprising primarily constabulary, humanitarian assistance, and diplomatic flag flying, the Indian Navy is unlikely to find ships of the size of Kochi of much use for the missions it is required to perform in the Indian Ocean. With the bulk of its operational energies spent in conducting coastal security and non-combatant evacuation missions – such as the operation in Yemen earlier this year – the Navy already has a problem of sophisticated warships carrying out low-end constabulary and benign tasks. The suggestion then that instead of large redundant war-vessels, India must focus on building light frigates, patrol boats, and utility craft for surveillance and constabulary duties does appear to have some merit.
"
http://thediplomat.com/2015/10/the-indian-navy-and-the-battleship-debate/

The cost data you have provided has no meaning now, as the cost has escalated to USA standard as per your table.

This is the most stupid thing I have read for a while that is confusing all sorts of issues.

Firstly they are saying the P-15As don't need to be heavily armed so how exactly does one expect the IN to fight when it comes to wartime?

It's like saying, the IAF's fighter a/c shouldn't have missiles ordered with them.

There is an issue with the IN being used as a coastal protection force BUT this is in direct response to 26/11 and is an emergency measure, by 2022 the IN will have handed back this resonsibility to the ICG who are themselves being upgraded and expanded currently. Addtionally the IN is inducting OPVs that they will use for constabulary duties whilst their large capital vessels engage in power projection away from Indian shores.

I haven't heard this same argument being used against the USN.

 

[abingdonboy]

Price - is it for unfinished boat or for a complete boat with weapons? If it is for a complete boat, then it is not far for India's own pricing.

It is for a complete boat but a FAR less capable boat- less advanced sensors, far smaller, less impressive weaponary. The $1.3BN for the P-17As from 2022 is reasonable, $1BN for upgraded Talwars is a cr@p deal.