Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[Superdefender]

I think the SSNs and S-5 SSBNs will be constructed in modular approach parallel to P-17A.

 

[abingdonboy]

Any idea on the status of Maitri missile?

Not really, it is progressing and is being spear-headed by the IN so expect some results in the coming years.

 

[garg_bharat]

@abingdonboy, you have given very good data.
The data shows progressively higher local content. But this table is missing P15B and P17A. If you add those, you will agree to what I said.

The Chinese should be taken seriously. They must be considered a professional Navy, even if they seem to lack operational excellence in some areas.

China has been very aggressive in buying out foreign governments around India. The situation in Myanmar and Sri Lanka is tenuous. The short legs of Chinese Navy cannot be a very strong advantage for India. A case in point is Russian ops in Tartus which are done by similarly short legged ships.

I have given a very simple point to ponder - IN has to take responsibility to safeguard commercial shipping in wartime. Is IN ready?

 

[abingdonboy]

I think the SSNs and S-5 SSBNs will be constructed in modular approach parallel to P-17A.

Let's hope so, the IN and industry has learnt a lot of lessons from Arihant and production schedules should contract as a result. The traditional approach is to design and produce SSN before SSBN so hopefully the IN/industry has incurred the pain first and thus the fruits of their labour will be present in the SSNs.

One of the critical factors is the PWR, SSNs require larger generation capacities so DAE's work could be a limiting factor here, let's hope they have been working on improved designs.

 

[abingdonboy]

@abingdonboy, you have given very good data.
The data shows progressively higher local content. But this table is missing P15B and P17A. If you add those, you will agree to what I said.

There shouldn't be a massive increase in foreign content in either the P-17A or P-15B vis a vis their predecessors. The P-15B is largely the same as the P-15A with some structual refinements and a greater weapon carrying ability. The P-17A will be largely the P-17 with some upgrades in sensors and the like but neither is going to be radically different from what has come before them and thus the figures shouldn't change dramatically.

China has been very aggressive in buying out foreign governments around India. The situation in Myanmar and Sri Lanka is tenuous. The short legs of Chinese Navy cannot be a very strong advantage for India. A case in point is Russian ops in Tartus which are done by similarly short legged ships.

It's a bit over blown, remember how hyped up the "string of pearls" was a few years ago and now that has all but been forgotten/undermined. For the forseeable future the PLA(N) is tied down in the SCS, they may have a token presence elsewhere but nothing that actually threatens the IN's supremacy in their waters.

This "threat" will actually get overblown, possibly by the IN themselves, so as to ensure increased budgetary allocation to them- just be aware of this element.

I have given a very simple point to ponder - IN has to take responsibility to safeguard commercial shipping in wartime. Is IN ready?

Today? Perhaps not but in the near future? Sure.

Also, let's not be naive and look at this in a vacum- the largest navy in the IOR for now is the USN and they aren't going to allow anyone to threaten global trade, least of all China.

 

[Gessler]

I agree with all of the above but SSNs in large numbers are imperative and without them the IN's SSBNs are rather vulnerable, not to mention the IN's ASW capabilty rather constricted (at a time when it is trying to expand this expertise).

As you say, the project hasn't even begun as of yet so how long will it take for the first SSN to be built, fully tested and in service? Easily a decade (at best), by that time there will be 5-6 SSBNs and 2 (maybe even 3) CBGs. SO how long will it take for 10 SSNs to be in service? 20-25 years (unless there is some clever production like with the P-17As ie parrell production lines).

I fully expect the SSN's delays to be attributable to the UPA (as were the delays in the P-17A clearances) but it doesn't change the fact that this is a serious issue that won't be resolved for a long, LONG, time.

If you ask me, we should have proliferated the know-how acquired in Arihant project (ATV) into an SSBN and an SSN at the same time, with the same baseline hull design and reactor configuration. Why didn't we do that? Well, there could have been a number of reasons : the reactor may not have been considered powerful enough to support dash-speeds and general fast travel needs that an SSN would have in a H-K role.

Anyway, I think some plans are already in motion toward the idea of realizing these SSNs as soon as possible. One of them appears to be cooperating with France for a nuclear submarine project. It's likely that IN wants to base it's future SSN on the Barracuda-class design....if not just use a modified Scorpene design (much like what France is doing for Brazil in it's S-BR SSN project).

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...g-nuclear-submarines/articleshow/49131287.cms

We'll have to watch this space to see where this goes. Anyway, relying on a design like Barracuda would significantly cut down the cost & time needed to design & validate a new SSN hull. The reactor, however, will be our own headache.

 

[Gessler]

You seem to be looking for reasons to attack the IN but are being very unfair and leaving yourself on shaky ground.

I have been observing for a while. He is what you might call a defeatist.

Although maybe not in the strictest sense, as most of such attitudes are shown only because the said person lacks adequate knowledge about developments in that field.

 

[Superdefender]

@Gessler, SSN's will be most likely follow Akula-II design.

 

[Gessler]

There shouldn't be a massive increase in foreign content in either the P-17A or P-15B vis a vis their predecessors. The P-15B is largely the same as the P-15A with some structual refinements and a greater weapon carrying ability. The P-17A will be largely the P-17 with some upgrades in sensors and the like but neither is going to be radically different from what has come before them and thus the figures shouldn't change dramatically.

Actually, indigenous content in P-17A is likely to be higher.

Missile fitments are now all produced in India. Both BrahMos and LR-SAM are joint projects and will be built here, with significant Indian content in them as well. The earlier P-17 had Klub ASCMs, Shtil-1 (9M317M versions) and Barak-1 missiles, all of which were imported off the shelf.

 

[Anupu]

@Gessler, SSN's will be most likely follow Akula-II design.

Any Source? ...........................

 

[abingdonboy]

If you ask me, we should have proliferated the know-how acquired in Arihant project (ATV) into an SSBN and an SSN at the same time, with the same baseline hull design and reactor configuration. Why didn't we do that? Well, there could have been a number of reasons : the reactor may not have been considered powerful enough to support dash-speeds and general fast travel needs that an SSN would have in a H-K role.

I think you have answered your own question. I beleive (just my opnion) that the limiting factor was the PWR and this is why an SSN class hasn't followed immediately based on the Arihant. SSNs need to have far higher outputs than SSBNs for the hunter killer role and to keep up with CBGs.

Anyway, I think some plans are already in motion toward the idea of realizing these SSNs as soon as possible. One of them appears to be cooperating with France for a nuclear submarine project. It's likely that IN wants to base it's future SSN on the Barracuda-class design....if not just use a modified Scorpene design (much like what France is doing for Brazil in it's S-BR SSN project).

No way the IN will pursue a Scorpene based SSN- it is FAR too small to be conducive with their ambitions and operatonal requirements. I don't know about Brazil's requirements but the IN needs to have long range high endurance SSNs, the Scorpene hull just wouldn't suffice- it is sufficent for a SSK that is meant to lurk close to shore and may work against the Pakis but in the vastness of the Bay of Bengal and the Eastern Starboard? Forget about it.


The Barracuda hull would be perfect- IF the GoI/MoD can pull off such a deal I would be more than pleased.

 

[Gessler]

I think you have answered your own question. I beleive (just my opnion) that the limiting factor was the PWR and this is why an SSN class hasn't followed immediately based on the Arihant. SSNs need to have far higher outputs than SSBNs for the hunter killer role and to keep up with CBGs.

Exactly...but the reactor (even the hull) wouldn't have been possible without Russian help, so I guess our hands were tied to an extent anyway, regarding what we could ask or have during that period (Soviet times when the project was originally contemplated).

No way the IN will pursue a Scorpene based SSN- it is FAR too small to be conducive with their ambitions and operatonal requirements. I don't know about Brazil's requirements but the IN needs to have long range high endurance SSNs, the Scorpene hull just wouldn't suffice- it is sufficent for a SSK that is meant to lurk close to shore and may work against the Pakis but in the vastness of the Bay of Bengal and the Eastern Starboard? Forget about it.


The Barracuda hull would be perfect- IF the GoI/MoD can pull off such a deal I would be more than pleased.

I think so too. A Barracuda-based design, with the cooperation deal similar to one between France & Brazil would be fair enough I guess. But the reactor will have to be our own (with backdoor Russian help, ofcourse), but I think we can manage that now.

It was reported earlier by Prasun Sengupta that IN's SSN needs call for a vessel in the 5,000-ton category. Barracuda fits perfectly.

 

[Anupu]

I think you have answered your own question. I beleive (just my opnion) that the limiting factor was the PWR and this is why an SSN class hasn't followed immediately based on the Arihant. SSNs need to have far higher outputs than SSBNs for the hunter killer role and to keep up with CBGs.


No way the IN will pursue a Scorpene based SSN- it is FAR too small to be conducive with their ambitions and operatonal requirements. I don't know about Brazil's requirements but the IN needs to have long range high endurance SSNs, the Scorpene hull just wouldn't suffice- it is sufficent for a SSK that is meant to lurk close to shore and may work against the Pakis but in the vastness of the Bay of Bengal and the Eastern Starboard? Forget about it.


The Barracuda hull would be perfect- IF the GoI/MoD can pull off such a deal I would be more than pleased.

I remember reading a blog post about Indian reactors and how we may be moving to a more powerful reactor, with more than 40% HEU preferably.
Edit : Here it is, you guys might have read it already.

 

[MKM]

Exactly...but the reactor (even the hull) wouldn't have been possible without Russian help, so I guess our hands were tied to an extent anyway, regarding what we could ask or have during that period (Soviet times when the project was originally contemplated).



I think so too. A Barracuda-based design, with the cooperation deal similar to one between France & Brazil would be fair enough I guess. But the reactor will have to be our own (with backdoor Russian help, ofcourse), but I think we can manage that now.

It was reported earlier by Prasun Sengupta that IN's SSN needs call for a vessel in the 5,000-ton category. Barracuda fits perfectly.

Actually some people are saying SSN displacement will similar to Chakra about 10k-12k.
Why India leased Chakra not it's predecessors,

 

[abingdonboy]

I think so too. A Barracuda-based design, with the cooperation deal similar to one between France & Brazil would be fair enough I guess. But the reactor will have to be our own (with backdoor Russian help, ofcourse), but I think we can manage that now.

DAE's and IN's expereince on the ATV should provide enough know how to pursue the Barracuda based SSN with a great deal of success especially where reactor design is concerned.

 

[abingdonboy]

Actually some people are saying SSN displacement will similar to Chakra about 10k-12k.
Why India leased Chakra not it's predecessors,

Maybe the follow-on class of SSN but not the first SSNs, that is too ambitious and the IN won't be so foolish. THey understand the need to follow the crawl, walk run appraoch.

 

[Superdefender]

Any Source? ...........................

http://gentleseas.blogspot.in/2014/07/indias-amazing-future-24-submarines.html?m=l

 

[Gessler]

Actually some people are saying SSN displacement will similar to Chakra about 10k-12k.
Why India leased Chakra not it's predecessors,

A Russian-designed SSN/SSGN offer was also reportedly studied. But it too is in the same 5,000-ton category, and would have dimensions similar to Barracuda, although it resemble Akula in looks.

This is also from Rubin design bureau, which assisted in Arihant project, and would also be working on S-5 SSBN project.

But I don't think this design will get anywhere with the IN because we've clearly separated the SSN and SSGN duties. Whichever design we go with, is most likely to be a pure H-K. Torpedo tube-launched cruise missiles however could be used.

 

[MKM]

Maybe the follow-on class of SSN but not the first SSNs, that is too ambitious and the IN won't be so foolish. They understand the need to follow the crawl, walk run appraoch.

I'm not wrong, It may be because 1st SSN can be based on Akula-II design, I know they have clear strategy but what is wrong in that?
Even some people are saying than Aridaman has more displacement than Arihant, SSN can't be based on Aridaman?

 

[Anupu]

http://gentleseas/blogspot.in/2014/07/indias-amazing-future-24-submarines.html?m=1

Hmm... Here is another one from him.. there is some traction in barracuda too.. If french indeed help us with this .... well I will forgive them for all that we had to deal for Rafale.