Indian Naval Aviation

[Koji]

you take that seriously? it is just a balloon they floated for the MRCA. it would be great if they can fulfill india's MRCA requirement if selected.
as for viraat, in any case it is going to be retired soon. wait and get our own N-LCA a couple of years down the line.
infact IN has already infused funds for it, being smart as always.

N-LCA is useless on the Viraat since only VSTOL aircraft may operate on it.

 

[icecoolben]

Indian navy is building aircraft carrier with STOBAR capability. It will master it in 5 years. Our navy has started working on developing EMALS. Now, u point to its inability to operate anything apart from STOVLs. Our naval aviation is just starting to bud with indigenous carriers, there is lot of scope for flexibility. A strategic thought would be not to confine ourselves with a fixed plan, lets seek a broader vision.

 

[K Factor]

Our navy has started working on developing EMALS.

Can you please provide a link to corroborate the quoted part?

 

[K Factor]

EMALS a Roll of the Technological Dice

By christopher p. cavas
Published: 16 Jul 2009 19:34

One of the more quixotic programs inside the U.S. Navy is the effort to develop an electro-magnetic launch system (EMALS), a new way to launch aircraft from carriers without resorting to tried-and-true but large and maintenance-intensive steam catapults.
The next carrier to be built by the Navy, the Gerald R. Ford, will use the new system, but no aircraft have yet been thrown into the air by EMALS - an event not scheduled to take place until next year, although construction of the new ship already has begun.


If the system doesn't work, in the words of at least one critic, the Navy may be building "the world's largest helicopter carrier."


Development of the EMALS by prime contractor General Atomics has been reported variously as going ahead despite technical problems, or - privately by some within the Navy and industry - as a technological disaster. This spring, the Navy's leadership reviewed the program and reaffirmed the service's confidence and commitment to installing EMALS in the new carrier rather than going back to a steam system.
But doubts persist about whether EMALS will work, and on Thursday, the House Armed Services seapower subcommittee held what its chairman called, "the first in what I intend to be a series of hearings on this program over the next few years."
The chairman, Rep. Gene Taylor, D-Miss., already has moved to increase accountability in the EMALS program by inserting into the House version of the defense authorization bill a provision that keeps the current EMALS program manager, Navy Capt. Randy Mahr, in his position through the testing period and initial production of EMALS units, despite his promotion to rear admiral. Mahr's replacement will need to stay with the program through its introduction into service.
Mahr and Capt. Brian Antonio, program manager for the Ford carrier program, were joined on the witness panel by Vice Adm. David Architzel, the Navy's senior officer in its Pentagon acquisition office. The officers first presented a video showing EMALS and then explained a series of charts. That sort of technical detail brought a long series of questions from the panel's ranking member, Rep. Todd Akin, R-Mo., a former engineer, who sought to more fully understand the new technology developed for EMALS.
Freshman Rep. Eric Massa, D-N.Y., a retired Navy commander, prompted the most direct questioning of the hearing.
"What happens if it doesn't work?" he asked.
"The technology now is critical to the ship," replied Architzel, who detailed the Navy's steps in reviewing the program but did not mention an EMALS alternative.
"I say again, what happens if it doesn't work?" asked Massa.
"We have every expectation that it will work," replied Architzel.
"With all due respect," Massa asked again, "what happens if it doesn't work?"
"With all candor, if that new system will not work … we will have to make sure it does work," Architzel said.
After noting that no similar system is in use by any navy, Massa, a former professional staffer on the House Armed Services Committee, spoke directly to Architzel, sitting only a few feet in front of him.
"I will state for the record that I was against the Navy shifting construction to the Ford class and taking such a large leap of technology," Massa declared. "I think it is a bridge too far with exceptionally high risk.
"I am exceptionally concerned about the inability to extract an answer to the simple question of what happens if it does not work. … the reality is, we have just bought the world's largest helicopter carrier."
Speaking to a reporter after leaving the hearing, Massa noted his concern extended beyond the carrier program.
"This actually goes to a larger subset than just EMALS," Massa said. "Across the library of the Department of Defense, we have committed ourselves to taking leaps in the second and third generations of the next great technologies without any fallback positions.
"This is bigger than EMALS. This is about maintaining a carrier strike force that can answer the nation's requirements. We are already accepting an aberration … as to the number of carriers we can maintain on active duty by accepting the early retirement of the USS Enterprise. If [the future USS Gerald R. Ford] is delayed, it has exceptionally significant impacts on our carrier strike force.
"The fulcrum of delay is the electro-magnetic launching system," Massa continued. "The decision has been made to go to Las Vegas, put the Navy's life savings on the crap table, and roll the technological dice. We've never done this before.
"The witnesses I just talked to looked straightfaced at the chairman and said we are going to be testing the interfaces with the weapons systems sometime in the future as we're building this system, without knowing what the interoperability is going to be. That's not a very good answer and not one that fills me with a great deal of confidence.
"Now I'm just a country boy from a farm in upstate New York, and I don't know much about this engineering stuff. But I know that if you're going to have 20 cows, you better have 20 bales of hay to feed 'em. And I don't think the Navy's coming to the table with enough hay to answer these questions."


Lawmaker: EMALS a Roll of the Technological Dice - Defense News

 

[icecoolben]

India Mulls Land-Based E-2D | AVIATION WEEK
this is just a news clip but the closest we civilians can get to sniff around defence planning of the navy.

 

[Rage]

N-LCA is useless on the Viraat since only VSTOL aircraft may operate on it.

Not quite. The premise of V/STOL takeoff-landing is the amount of thrust required to accelerate a fully laden aircraft over a rolling takeoff facilitated by a structure such as a 'ski jump' or ramp. For instance, the Harrier is incapable of taking off vertically with a full weapons and fuel load, and hence is operated as STOVL wherever possible. For STOVL aircraft, the aircraft taxis and accelerates into a conventional rolling takeoff with its jet exhausts set to provide maximum thrust forward; then as the aircraft nears the end of the ramp, the jet exhausts are rotated downward to provide upward lift as well as forward thrust (referred to as 'thrust-vectoring'). Rolling over the ski jump launches the plane simultaneously into a forwards and upwards trajectory, providing the necessary elevation to continue to accelerate horizontally until the wings of the plane can provide the needed lift. Now, the Kaveri, which is on both prototype versions of the N-Tejas, is a low-bypass-ratio afterburning, turbofan engine with three-stage low-pressure (LP) compressor facilitating transonic blading and a a six-stage core high-pressure (HP) compressor with variable inlet guide vanes / IGV's. These development versions are fitted so far with advanced 'convergent-divergent' variable nozzles, implying an isentropic gas flow accelerating to attain thrusts at supersonic speeds, however, the GTRE plans to fit production aircraft with a full multi-axis thrust-vectoring version.

Further, a design permitting operation from a carrier deck with a 14º ski-jump has been worked on since 1999. Now, while this will entail modifications to the 12º ski-jump on the Viraat ( which was itself retrofitted on the HMS-Hermes ), it doesn't entirely preclude the feasibility. In addition, several other peculiar features equip the N-Tejas for STOVL takeoff/landing, including titanium half-alloy tubes used for hydraulic power transmission from the Nuclear Fuel Complex (India is one of only six nations to have developed this technology, which also has space-based applikations), telescopic designs for the main and nose undercarriage to withstand larger pitch and significantly higher sink rates and loads at the nose at the instant of hook engagement, monolithic tailpieces - as opposed to 'deductive', titanium-block 'carved' pieces on other airplanes (several sources say that no other manufacturer has yet made tail fins out of a single peice), and LEVCON ( Leading Edge Vortex CONtroller): which is a deflectable aerodynamic device in wing apex region deflecting the apex surface +20 (down) to 30 (up) from its neutral position; Downward deflection reduces approach speed for carrier landing- aided by arrestor hooks to induce deceleration by up to 4.5g).

In any case, facilities to test the naval variant in conditions similar to those on the Viraat are being developed at the INS Hansa in Goa, and a dome-based Mission Simulator at the Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) in Bangalore.

 

[icecoolben]

A stovl n-tejas thats news for me. Are we good enough to leap frog to such a technology which the tejas was not conceived for. Designing a stobar with a basic strengthened under-carriage and landing gear and hook system has been testing for us. Stovl aircrafts have a lot reduced payload too. I would rather see our navy develop emals and develop n-tejas as a carrier borne fighter.

 

[ppgj]

N-LCA is useless on the Viraat since only VSTOL aircraft may operate on it.

koji, why don't you read the post? i did not say it is for viraat. it is for STOBAR ACs like IAC, GORSHKOV.

 

[sandeepdg]

Not quite. The premise of V/STOL takeoff-landing is the amount of thrust required to accelerate a fully laden aircraft over a rolling takeoff facilitated by a structure such as a 'ski jump' or ramp. For instance, the Harrier is incapable of taking off vertically with a full weapons and fuel load, and hence is operated as STOVL wherever possible. For STOVL aircraft, the aircraft taxis and accelerates into a conventional rolling takeoff with its jet exhausts set to provide maximum thrust forward; then as the aircraft nears the end of the ramp, the jet exhausts are rotated downward to provide upward lift as well as forward thrust (referred to as 'thrust-vectoring'). Rolling over the ski jump launches the plane simultaneously into a forwards and upwards trajectory, providing the necessary elevation to continue to accelerate horizontally until the wings of the plane can provide the needed lift. Now, the Kaveri, which is on both prototype versions of the N-Tejas, is a low-bypass-ratio afterburning, turbofan engine with three-stage low-pressure (LP) compressor facilitating transonic blading and a a six-stage core high-pressure (HP) compressor with variable inlet guide vanes / IGV's. These development versions are fitted so far with advanced 'convergent-divergent' variable nozzles, implying an isentropic gas flow accelerating to attain thrusts at supersonic speeds, however, the GTRE plans to fit production aircraft with a full multi-axis thrust-vectoring version.

Further, a design permitting operation from a carrier deck with a 14º ski-jump has been worked on since 1999. Now, while this will entail modifications to the 12º ski-jump on the Viraat ( which was itself retrofitted on the HMS-Hermes ), it doesn't entirely preclude the feasibility. In addition, several other peculiar features equip the N-Tejas for STOVL takeoff/landing, including titanium half-alloy tubes used for hydraulic power transmission from the Nuclear Fuel Complex (India is one of only six nations to have developed this technology, which also has space-based applikations), telescopic designs for the main and nose undercarriage to withstand larger pitch and significantly higher sink rates and loads at the nose at the instant of hook engagement, monolithic tailpieces - as opposed to 'deductive', titanium-block 'carved' pieces on other airplanes (several sources say that no other manufacturer has yet made tail fins out of a single peice), and LEVCON ( Leading Edge Vortex CONtroller): which is a deflectable aerodynamic device in wing apex region deflecting the apex surface +20 (down) to 30 (up) from its neutral position; Downward deflection reduces approach speed for carrier landing- aided by arrestor hooks to induce deceleration by up to 4.5g).

In any case, facilities to test the naval variant in conditions similar to those on the Viraat are being developed at the INS Hansa in Goa, and a dome-based Mission Simulator at the Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) in Bangalore.

Rage, that means the N-LCA has the capability to be operated from a Viraat type equipped with a ski-jump ?

 

[bsn4u1985]

Rage, that means the N-LCA has the capability to be operated from a Viraat type equipped with a ski-jump ?

the naval LCA are not for the INS VIRAT....i think it's either for land based operation or for the training and operational purpose for future AC.....or may be both............

 

[Rage]

A stovl n-tejas thats news for me. Are we good enough to leap frog to such a technology which the tejas was not conceived for. Designing a stobar with a basic strengthened under-carriage and landing gear and hook system has been testing for us. Stovl aircrafts have a lot reduced payload too. I would rather see our navy develop emals and develop n-tejas as a carrier borne fighter.

That is actually one of the least of our problems. The LCA employs extensive carbon-fibre composites (upto 45% of bodywieght), including on the fuselage, elevons and landing gear doors and far fewer rivets and fasteners, and a composite structure that obviated the need to drill about 2000 holes, envisaging a total reduction in body weight of about 21%. The landing-gear was s'posed to have been originally imported, but following the imposition of sanctions, the HAL developed the entire thingamajig on its own, including employing titanium half-alloy tubes for hydraulic power transmission developed by the Nuclear Fuel Complex that caused India to become one of only six nations to have developed the technology. The critical component is time: something that the HAL has had a miserable track record on.

the naval LCA are not for the INS VIRAT....i think it's either for land based operation or for the training and operational purpose for future AC.....or may be both............

Brothermen, the two prototypes of the naval LCA designed so far are fitted with the variable "con-di" nozzles, but as this will confirm, the GTRE plans to fit production versions of the Tejas with axissymetric, mult-axis thrust-vectoring versions. We certainly aren't there yet, and give our poor track record won't be there for some time. The GTRE's design also envisions achieving a fan pressure ratio of 4:1 and an overall pressure ratio of 27:1 (enabling supercruise without afterburner) and a 13% higher thrust than the General Electric F404-GE-F2J3 engines equipping the LCA prototypes. In addition, this will confirm "a design permitting operation on a 14º ski-jump" bit. The two, coupled with the LEVCON and (Kevlar-fabricated) nose-cone developments will permit operation from a carrier-size equipped with a 14º ski-jump. What is unlikely though, is that the Viraat will undergo any more structural modifications to retrofit a more inclined ski-jump, given: a) that it is at the end of its shelf life; b) that it has just undergone a major 'mid-life service upgrade'. Therefore, what is likely is that the N-Tejas is being equipped for the indigenous aircraft carrier being built at Kochi.

 

[RPK]

Navy to be equipped with MiG-29K jets

NEW DELHI: The Indian Navy’s long wait to induct new MiG-29 K combat jets will finally be over later this month as the first batch of four fighters arrives. The jets, ordered in 2004, were meant to operate from the new aircraftcarrier INS Vikramaditya, earlier known as Admiral Gorshkov, undergoing refitment at a Russian shipyard.


The carrier operations of MiG-29s will take some time to realise as INS Vikramaditya’s delivery has been delayed substantially owing to dispute over the price of the ship. Till then, the MiG-29 K/KUB fighter jets would operate from the Naval aviation base at Goa.

The base already operates Sea Harriers. The ageing Sea Harriers had worked for long without a carrier.

Navy’s sole aircraft carrier INS Viraat is undergoing routine maintenance. The ship is likely to be back in service soon.

The Navy has already named the MiG-29 K squadron ‘Black Panther.’ The pilots of this squadron were trained in carrier operations in the US and also in Russia. The carrier operations are one of the most complicated and require comprehensive training of pilots.

The Naval pilots learned deck landing in the US. They were further trained to fly MiG-29s in Russia. The training was held on a Russian carrier where all aspects of the new aircraft were tested before taking the delivery.

India had ordered 16 jets in 2004 as part of the Gorshkov deal of around $1.2 billion. The price of the contract is expected to be doubled as the Russians are asking more for the ship. Out of the 16, four will be MiG-29 KUB, a twin seater trainer aircraft. The rest would be single-seater MiG-29 K.

The aircraft is capable of performing multi-role functions of providing air defence cover to warships and also take part in attack and air space domination roles by taking on air to ground targets. They will be equipped with advanced weapon systems and avionics.

The MiG- 29 Ks are the maritime version of the MiG-29s which are being flown by the Indian Air Force primarily for air defence purposes.

The IAF’s MiG-29 fleet is undergoing upgrading. The aircraft is in the last leg of its life span and needs to undergo drastic changes.

 

[bengalraider]

source: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-5220411,prtpage-1.cms
India's plight: A carrier running out of jets; fighters without their carrier

Rajat Pandit, TNN 12 November 2009, 02:33am IST
NEW DELHI: Sheer lack of long-term strategic planning, coupled with a dose of bad luck, has landed India in a peculiar situation. If it did not expose a gaping hole in the country's military capabilities, the predicament would have actually been quite ludicrous.

On one hand, it has an ageing but newly-refurbished aircraft carrier, INS Viraat, which is fast running out of fighters which can operate from its deck.

On the other, it's soon going to induct another type of maritime fighters but no suitable carrier to operate them from. Navy will get Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov only by early-2013 but will begin inducting its MiG-29Ks later this month.

Sources say the first four of the 16 MiG-29Ks contracted along with the 44,570-tonne Gorshkov, in the initial $1.5-billion package deal inked with Russia in January 2004 after a decade of negotiations, will arrive in India in the "last week of November''.

This comes at a time when the 50-year-old INS Viraat is finally back in action after an 18-month-long comprehensive refit to increase its longevity as well as upgrade its weapon and sensor packages.

But, as reported by TOI earlier, the 28,000-tonne old warhorse is left with only 11 of its Sea Harrier jump-jets. Navy inducted 30 of the British-origin Sea Harriers, which take off from the angled ski-jump on INS Viraat but land vertically on its deck, but has lost over half of them in accidents since mid-1980s.

India had shown interest in buying some more Sea Harriers from British Royal Navy, which replaced the fighters in 2006 with Harrier-GR9s, some time ago but the deal did not ultimately materialise.

Unlike the `unconventional' Sea Harriers, which are V/STOL (vertical and/or short take-off and landing) jets, MiG-29Ks are `conventional' fighters and hence cannot operate from small carriers like Viraat.

The ongoing refit of the partly-burnt Gorshkov, at Sevmash Shipyard in North Russia, in fact, includes removal of missile launchers on the bow to build a ski-jump at a 14.3 degree angle as well as three arrestor wires on the angled deck for MiG-29Ks.

"MiG-29Ks, which are `tail-hookers', will land on Gorshkov with help of arrestor wires in STOBAR (short take-off but arrested recovery) configuration. They cannot land vertically like Sea Harriers,'' said an official.

Incidentally, India is going to order 29 more MiG-29Ks for around $1.1 billion since the fighters will operate from both Gorshkov, rechristened INS Vikramaditya, as well as the long-delayed 40,000-tonne indigenous aircraft carrier being built at Cochin Shipyard, which should roll out by 2014-2015.

India and Russia, of course, have to still settle their bitter wrangling over the huge jump in Gorshkov's refit cost. "Its earlier $974 million refit cost will go up to $2.5 billion or so... The negotiations are still in progress. But Gorshkov will come to us by 2012-2013,'' said the official.

Consequently, Navy will have to wait till then to undertake carrier deck operations of MiG-29Ks. In the interim, naval pilots will have to fly the MiG-29Ks from only the shore-based airbase INS Hansa in Goa.

 

[icecoolben]

Operating on the shores, seas in tandem to keep pace not to lose knowledge

That is actually one of the least of our problems. The LCA employs extensive carbon-fibre composites (upto 45% of bodywieght), including on the fuselage, elevons and landing gear doors and far fewer rivets and fasteners, and a composite structure that obviated the need to drill about 2000 holes, envisaging a total reduction in body weight of about 21%. The landing-gear was s'posed to have been originally imported, but following the imposition of sanctions, the HAL developed the entire thingamajig on its own, including employing titanium half-alloy tubes for hydraulic power transmission developed by the Nuclear Fuel Complex that caused India to become one of only six nations to have developed the technology. The critical component is time: something that the HAL has had a miserable track record on.
Brothermen, the two prototypes of the naval LCA designed so far are fitted with the variable "con-di" nozzles, but as this will confirm, the GTRE plans to fit production versions of the Tejas with axissymetric, mult-axis thrust-vectoring versions. We certainly aren't there yet, and give our poor track record won't be there for some time. The GTRE's design also envisions achieving a fan pressure ratio of 4:1 and an overall pressure ratio of 27:1 (enabling supercruise without afterburner) and a 13% higher thrust than the General Electric F404-GE-F2J3 engines equipping the LCA prototypes. In addition, this will confirm "a design permitting operation on a 140†2 ski-jump" bit. The two, coupled with the LEVCON and (Kevlar-fabricated) nose-cone developments will permit operation from a carrier-size equipped with a 140†2 ski-jump. What is unlikely though, is that the Viraat will undergo any more structural modifications to retrofit a more inclined ski-jump, given: a) that it is at the end of its shelf life; b) that it has just undergone a major 'mid-life service upgrade'. Therefore, what is likely is that the N-Tejas is being equipped for the indigenous aircraft carrier being built at Kochi.

india won't be making any serious retro-fitting to virat any time in the future, and i'm quite vary if v could ever develop n-tejas, given that even our eads partners don't have any experience of designing carrier borne aircraft. So v are limited to dassalt aviation, who would try to nudge in their rafales in mmrca for the assistance, frankly i'm highly suspectful of dassalt's capabilities, compared to the likes of boeing.
So any hopes of flying virat before its retirement would be void of any reasoning. The best option, may be even the only option left for us would be to use the shore based facility in goa, with mig-29k, along with maintaining the harriers, presently in service on virat with stringent maintenance to prevent mishaps, and make them serve till 2012 by which hopefully gokskov joins the fleet. If that deal with the russians fell through, the creeky old ship would have to carry on till 2015 till the indigenous carriers are inducted into service.
One area where we have a definite lead over the chinese and other aspiring powers is carrier aviation, painstakingly gained through years of resolve through budget constrains and other stark realities. To lose such valuable knowledge when our armed forces are supported by such a fledgeing economy would be the most ironical part of our military history.

 

[icecoolben]

Indian navy serious about new aircrafts for carriers. Its highly likely that n-tejas is a dud now.

Hunt on for fighters for aircraft carriers IDRW.ORG

 

[enlightened1]

Indian navy serious about new aircrafts for carriers. Its highly likely that n-tejas is a dud now.

Hunt on for fighters for aircraft carriers IDRW.ORG

They just paid 900 crores for an aircraft that they supposedly think will turn out to be a dud?? I think not!

 

[bengalraider]

Printed from

Hunt on for fighters for aircraft carriers
TNN 25 November 2009, 03:18am IST
Text Size:
|

Topics:
Navy
Tejas
NEW DELHI: With the development of the naval version of the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) floundering, the Navy has launched a hunt for a new fighter to operate from its aircraft carriers in the pipeline.

Navy has issued an RFI (request for information) to several global aviation majors, including American Boeing, French Dassault and Russian MiG companies, for 'an alternate deck-based aircraft'.

''Information is being sought to acquire over 40 fighters for the 40,000-tonne IAC-I (indigenous aircraft carrier), being built at the Cochin shipyard and expected to roll out by 2014-2015 now, and IAC-II, which will follow later,'' said a source.

As reported by TOI earlier, lack of long-term strategic planning has meant that the 28,000-tonne ageing carrier INS Viraat is fast running out of its Sea Harrier jump-jets, even as the first lot of MiG-29Ks for the 44,570-tonne Admiral Gorshkov will begin arriving in a few days but the carrier itself will come from Russia only in early-2013.

Apart from the 16 MiG-29Ks contracted along with Gorshkov's refit in January 2004, India is also going to order 29 more MiG-29Ks for around $1.1 billion to operate them from both Gorshkov as well as IAC-I.

IAC-I was also supposed to operate the naval Tejas. ''But now, Navy is also exploring other options for both IAC-I and II,'' said the source.

Source: Hunt on for fighters for aircraft carriers - India - The Times of India

 

[SATISH]

The navy is going for the N-LCA for the strike component in the IAC, The N-LCA will be more adapted to the A2G role. The IN, unlike the IAF plans ahead keeping in mind the delays. The IN will be going for the N-LCA even if they are going to use it as a trainer.

 

[s_bman]

The navy is going for the N-LCA for the strike component in the IAC, The N-LCA will be more adapted to the A2G role. The IN, unlike the IAF plans ahead keeping in mind the delays. The IN will be going for the N-LCA even if they are going to use it as a trainer.

i be to dis agree that N-lca willbe converted to strike role ,it doesn't have sufficient range/combat radius for that role . it will be there for its point defence role on iac

 

[icecoolben]

I agree tejas doesn't have the payload and range for strike capability even with external tanks. The mig-29k won't be able to accomplish this as well, as it too broadly falls into gripen, f-16, tejas, j-10 category. The indian navy might be looking at aircrafts like boeing f-18 e/f and dassalt rafale to augument this vital strike capability. The f-35 c is a bang for the buck though.