Indian Naval Aviation

[mayfair]

BAE Systems targets £6bn India fighter deal

By admin at 6 March, 2011, 5:45 am

SOURCE : Daily Mail, UK

BAE Systems has offered to sell the Indian navy supersonic Typhoon jets capable of landing on aircraft carriers.India is building two new carriers and is looking for dual-capability fighters that can be based both on land and at sea.The British company is in fierce competition with firms in France, which is not involved in the Typhoon consortium of which BAE is part, to sell India 126 land-based aircraft for £6.1billion. As an incentive, BAE has given India designs that show the Typhoon can be an effective carrier plane too.

The irony is that Britain no longer has aircraft carriers. It will be at least ten years before new British carriers are built, which will carry US-made Joint Strike Fighters (JSF). The cost of each JSF is expected to rise to more than £100 million, much higher than the £60 million Typhoon.

The advantage of the deal with New Delhi would be that the detailed design work needed to convert the Typhoon for carriers would be borne by the Indians.

There is concern in Whitehall at the rising cost of the JSF. Some see a 'navalised' Typhoon as a cheaper British alternative.An MoD spokesman said: 'We considered a marinised Typhoon solution, but it was rejected in favour of the JSF.

'The Strategic Defence and Security Review confirmed the capabilities offered by JSF were the most appropriate and costeffective solution to meet the UK's carrier strike capability.'

 

[ace009]

BAE Systems targets £6bn India fighter deal

By admin at 6 March, 2011, 5:45 am

SOURCE : Daily Mail, UK

BAE Systems has offered to sell the Indian navy supersonic Typhoon jets capable of landing on aircraft carriers.India is building two new carriers and is looking for dual-capability fighters that can be based both on land and at sea.The British company is in fierce competition with firms in France, which is not involved in the Typhoon consortium of which BAE is part, to sell India 126 land-based aircraft for £6.1billion. As an incentive, BAE has given India designs that show the Typhoon can be an effective carrier plane too.

The irony is that Britain no longer has aircraft carriers. It will be at least ten years before new British carriers are built, which will carry US-made Joint Strike Fighters (JSF). The cost of each JSF is expected to rise to more than £100 million, much higher than the £60 million Typhoon.

The advantage of the deal with New Delhi would be that the detailed design work needed to convert the Typhoon for carriers would be borne by the Indians.

There is concern in Whitehall at the rising cost of the JSF. Some see a 'navalised' Typhoon as a cheaper British alternative.An MoD spokesman said: 'We considered a marinised Typhoon solution, but it was rejected in favour of the JSF.

'The Strategic Defence and Security Review confirmed the capabilities offered by JSF were the most appropriate and costeffective solution to meet the UK's carrier strike capability.'

Sounds like the Royal Navy is looking for a free ride on the backs of IN! I think by 2020, IN will be the second strongest naval force after the USN, leapfrogging over RN or the French Navy.

 

[sandeepdg]

Sounds like the Royal Navy is looking for a free ride on the backs of IN! I think by 2020, IN will be the second strongest naval force after the USN, leapfrogging over RN or the French Navy.

We won't match the Royal Navy, the Russian Navy, the French Navy, PLA Navy in terms of subs, both conventional and nuclear ones by 2020 anyway. So how do you think we will become the strongest naval force after USN ? Please try to make some realistic assumptions.

 

[natarajan]

Sounds like the Royal Navy is looking for a free ride on the backs of IN! I think by 2020, IN will be the second strongest naval force after the USN, leapfrogging over RN or the French Navy.

If we get back all black money(1.4 to2 trillion dollars) and with eradication of salary we can easily attain 2nd position

 

[plugwater]

If we get back all black money(1.4 to2 trillion dollars) and with eradication of salary we can easily attain 2nd position

What is your point ? We should use all the black money on IN to make it 2nd best in the world ?

 

[Atul]

the Clear no the Typhoon Carrier based jet is essential, since it will be only at the expense of the Indian Navy.

If the Indian Navy is infact should be looking out for a combo like :

Heavy Jet :
1) SU-33 (it uses a ski-jump, so it fits perfectly in the catagory of Jets that might jell with the Vikrant Class Carrier)
it has got a zooming max speed of Mach 2+, a decent Range of 1,860 nmi & a Max takeoff weight of 33,000 kg, it can sync perfectly with the MKI support network.

or

2) Rafale M (if the Dassault Rafale wins the MMRCA, the Rafale M can join in the server as a heavy fighter
it has a Max speed of Mach 2+, a range of 2,000+ nmi & a Max takeoff weight of 22,200 kg.

Medium Jet :
2) Mig 29k ( the Indian Navy already has ordered & uses the MiG-29K/KUB aircraft)
it has a Max speed of Mach 2+, a range of 1,860 nmi & a Max takeoff weight of 24,500 kg.

Light Jet :
3) LCA (Naval) (it uses a ski-jump, & is made specially for the Vikrant Class Carrier)
lets hope it has similar if not better specs than the present Tejas =
Max takeoff weight of 13,300 kg, Maximum speed of Mach 1.8 & a Range of 1,840 nmi

 

[nrj]

Rafale or SH18 for heavier catagory & LCA MK-II should suffice IN's fighter requirements. Rest will be assured with the way FGFA/AMCA progresses.

Immediate need is to effectively build catapult systems capable to handle heavier fighter loaded with handsome packages leaving least maintenance to aircraft.

 

[sandeepdg]

^ I agree with Atul, since we don't have catapult equipped ACs and no one can predict as to when we will get that capability, also Vikramaditya and IAC will employ ski jumps, so its better to acquire a plane like the SU-33 for heavy naval fighter role than to go SH or Rafale, since its meaning less to have such aircrafts without the catapult tech on carriers, which doesn't seem to be happening as of now. Maybe IAC-2 will be catapult equipped, but that will be inducted probably sometime in 2017-18, that's 7 years away. In the meanwhile we already have the Mig-29K, we should have gone for atleast a squadron of the SU-33, as the N-LCA maybe inducted by 2014-15. And after 2017-18, I think its better to look for the Rafale M as the primary fighter for catapult equipped Indian carriers since its much modern, much faster, has a huge difference in range and combat radius than the SH and a lower RCS. And, though the SH is very heavy, (loaded weight of 47000 kgs), its actual combat load is 8000 kgs for fuel and ordnance, whereas the Rafale M can carry 9500 kgs of combat load.

 

[sandeepdg]

Anyway, I don't expect a naval variant of AMCA/FGFA anytime before 2022-23, maybe even later on.

 

[plugwater]

Anyway, I don't expect a naval variant of AMCA/FGFA anytime before 2022-23, maybe even later on.

I dont even expect an AF variant of AMCA anytime before 2023

 

[sandeepdg]

^^ Yeah, that's the reason, I believe that we need to have a fighter like the Rafale and the SU-33 in the Indian navy.

 

[Atul]

China is developing its own jet the Shenyang J-15 based on the Su-33 Platform, using its old BEG, BORROW, STEAL legacy. But any ways the Original is and will always be the best.

Since the Indian Navy decided to proceed with the MiG-29K, the Russians also reviewed its option of going for the MIG rather then the Sukhoi. (Cost saving was & is the only reason behind the same) (Mig costs about $ 46 million each, where as the Sukhoi costs $55 million)

But the SU-33 is a potent weapons platform, it has a better combat radius, but its too heavy...

Sukhoi is working on the much advance SU-33K, which is rumored to be based on the SU-35 platform... hope the details come out soon....

 

[ace009]

We won't match the Royal Navy, the Russian Navy, the French Navy, PLA Navy in terms of subs, both conventional and nuclear ones by 2020 anyway. So how do you think we will become the strongest naval force after USN ? Please try to make some realistic assumptions.

By 2020, IN will be operating several hightech diesel subs and a handful of nuclear subs. May not be enough to match the RN, FN or RuN, but enough for force projection in the IO region and maybe the Mediterranean and the South China sea if needed. On the other hand, IN will be operating 4 carriers and most number of advanced surface warships after the USN. For peacetime purposes, IN will definitely be second only to USN.

 

[ace009]

^^ Yeah, that's the reason, I believe that we need to have a fighter like the Rafale and the SU-33 in the Indian navy.

The Su-33 is huge, heavy and not a very good multi-role fighter. The fact that the Russians are considering to move to Mig-29K (following IN), gives us an idea as to how good the Su-33 really is. Now, we can buy the "cheap" Su-33 crap or we can buy the navalized version of the Rafael/ EF-2000 or Gripen (whichever wins the MMRCA). On the other hand we can decide to "indianize" the Su-33 like we did for the Su-30 MKI, but in that case it would not be cheap anymore.

 

[Atul]

The Su-33 is huge, heavy and not a very good multi-role fighter. The fact that the Russians are considering to move to Mig-29K (following IN), gives us an idea as to how good the Su-33 really is. Now, we can buy the "cheap" Su-33 crap or we can buy the navalized version of the Rafael/ EF-2000 or Gripen (whichever wins the MMRCA). On the other hand we can decide to "indianize" the Su-33 like we did for the Su-30 MKI, but in that case it would not be cheap anymore.

The Su-33 is exactly what the MKI is, a perfect war machine. Russia is not USSR, which supported development and financed massive defense projects. Recession has hit Russia bad & it always needs a partner now, may be it the PAK-FA or the Brahmos Deal's. and in INDIA, it find a trusted financing partner.

Since the Indian Navy Selected the MIG-29k, does not make the Su-33 any less competent or lethal. the Chinese interest in the technology proves the same.

This is Economics of scale, the Russians know for sure, the Chinese will replicate the Su-33 (they have anyways already done it with Ukraine's help) and so they denied any deal with china on the Su-33. the IN selected the MIG, so its cost viz-a-vis the SU is less, this will help Russia save more. or get a jet cheap. (Cost wise not Quality wise)

 

[civfanatic]

The Su-33 is huge, heavy and not a very good multi-role fighter. The fact that the Russians are considering to move to Mig-29K (following IN), gives us an idea as to how good the Su-33 really is. Now, we can buy the "cheap" Su-33 crap or we can buy the navalized version of the Rafael/ EF-2000 or Gripen (whichever wins the MMRCA). On the other hand we can decide to "indianize" the Su-33 like we did for the Su-30 MKI, but in that case it would not be cheap anymore.

The Su-33 is probably the best naval air superiority fighter in service right now. The only problem is that it lacks sufficient ground-attack capability. In the Soviet/Russian doctrine, aircraft carriers have one main objective: keep enemy ASW aircraft off friendly subs, and enemy fighters off surface ships. Their aircraft carriers are NOT used to support ground invasions like USN supercarriers.

On the other hand, the IN wants their carriers to have operational flexibility, and be able to conduct a wide variety of missions. We need a fighter that can not only provide air defence for our fleet, but also conduct effective ground-strike and shore/offshore interdiction. If you look at the example of 1971, the INS Vikarant, armed with just eight Sea Hawks, was able to disable Coxs Bazaar and Chittagong Harbour, effectively enforcing blockade on East Pakistan. That is a good example of effective use of naval aviation assets in the strategic strike/interdiction role, something that I think the IN wants to replicate.

For the IN's requirements, I would say the Rafale M is the best way to go.

 

[JBH22]

Rationale for Russia to buy Mig-29k no need to invest additional R&D funds since India already did it plus given production line is open it makes more economical sense to build on that rather than restart Su-33 for a small order. SU-33 is a good platform it however lacks the avionics that contemporary naval planes like Rafale or F-18 have.

 

[nrj]

IAI may pullout of India's unmanned helicopter conversions

Israel Aerospace Industries will not invest additional money in converting manned helicopters into unmanned platforms, a senior source says.While the company's efforts to date had looked like a "reasonable" investment, tests made with some platforms have highlighted the shortcomings of such products.

"The main problem is the short endurance of such a platform. An unmanned rotorcraft should be designed as such from scratch to make it very efficient for the missions," the source says.

In recent years, IAI has been involved in an effort to assist India's Hindustan Aeronautics in using an existing helicopter for unmanned operations. However, the work was not fully budgeted by India, and IAI ceased its active involvement due to the lack of a customer.

While it intends to step back from such work on adapting manned platforms, IAI has recently revealed some details about its efforts in the small unmanned rotorcraft sector. One example is its developmental "Ghost" reconnaissance design, which has a maximum take-off weight of 4kg (8.8lb), a top speed of 35kt (65km/h) and an endurance of 25min.


FlightGlobal

 

[plugwater]

No big deal, Indian Navy already showed interests in MQ-8B Fire Scout and Northrop Grumman is happy to sell couple of them to us.

 

[nrj]

No big deal, Indian Navy already showed interests in MQ-8B Fire Scout and Northrop Grumman is happy to sell couple of them to us.

Yes that true.

After sometime, I just don't want to hear that IAI did pullout in a play to hasten the FireScout deal approval.

--

Anyways, I think DRDO will not quit on Chetak conversion & future unmanned Helo programs.