Indian Army wants futuristic vehicle for its Armoured corps

[sob]

It depends are they looking at the short term or the long term.

If they get the contract, there will be one part made in Russia and balance around 80% made in India. Plus they will get Royalty from the Indian Company.

 

[Compersion]

GOI wants control.

Private players will take away control is the fear.

The Rule of Law is the equalizer and GOI needs to strengthen that and trust the private players.

 

[Bhadra]

Does it serve anybodies purpose to say “Both sides of western border”. Why cannot the DGMF say what is there on the other side of the western border. What is to be expected in terms of canal depths, ditch cum bund preparations, road conditions, soil conditions.

That will be about ten volume of books each about 1000 pages. And that is available on net - soil studies, geological patterns, subsurface hydrology, surface structures, water system, Canal systems etc etc. Tank designers are not DODOs. Is someone being invited to design tanks or toys ? Are you guys scientists or some Babus ?

Such as :

http://www.slideshare.net/shahjee1522/irrigation-system-of-pakistan

 

[Bhadra]

@Khagesh

I had asked to answer DGMF questionnaire which you are not answering and going on and on and on and even bringing in 1962 which was disaster brought upon this country by bunch of civilian like you .

Why not answer these question: (I have put possible DODO answers to these in brackets as culled from various comments and discussions here)

Questionnaire.


(a) What is your estimate of the approximate expenditure likely to be incurred in preparing the design?

( We wiIl accept that as a project with incremental PDC of 2020 and incremental expenditure of Rs ten corers every two years with inflation to be catered for - ten foreign visits and about ten crores additional for that. Pay and perks of 100 Scientists over minimum ten years would over and above. Even if the project is foreclosed these scientist will keep working on the project without any sanction. Damn be the CAG ? Reservation as per Central government will be insured in this lucrative project lest there is strike in the organisation)

(b) What is the approximate time period which will be required to prepare the design?

(Initial PDC 2020 to be extended may be upto 2030 and final PDC to be decided in 2030.)

(c) What details would be needed in the FRCV design philosophy to enable the design to be prepared?

Organise a field visit of the entire team to all areas of Pakistan side of the border and briefing on terrain in Pakistan by their DGMO and DGISI. Ten PhD projects to study soil patterns of ten different areas of Punjab and Rajasthan over ten years period. Similar project on Pakistani side of the border under "Sadbhawana". Senior Executive engineers of BRO, PWD, Canal Department, Railways, NHAI and minimum ten Maj Gens of DGMF to be attached and placed under command of the Design team. All five star guest houses in the areas to be made available. One regiment of armour preferably Arjun also be made available on both sides of Western border for Scientists to ride the tanks and see / feel the terrain themselves. Ten pneumatic boats with four OBMs each boat also be made available to design team to see waters of canals and rivers, have some joy rides and organise picnics. Ten class A Divers of Indian navy be given to bring up soil of the river beds.
All rivers and Canals on both sides of the border must be made absolutely dry for measuring their width, depth, bed soil and angles of approach.

(d) What is the approximate amount of prize money for the winning design which will adequately motivate your organisation to participate in the competition?

DARPA gave one million dollars for their designer but there is no comparison between such stupid organisation and DRDO. That was to a nut amateur. Since this would a design team of distinguished DODOs having many times designed and redesigned and discovered and rediscovered Arjun , minimum 100 million US$ would be essential. Below that 100 bungalows for 100 men team would not be possible as the Desin team would be approaching retirement.

(e) What would be your most preferred model for conduct of the competition such that maximum transparency and a level playing field is maintained?

DODOs do not accept any transparency or competition. DGMF must know by now that it is our birth right and you have no choice. How dare you ask us this when we have SA to RM ? Slaves do not ask such questions !

 

[marrakesh]

And I don't understand their philosophy either . if some expert can give us insight on it, it would be great. I mean every western country is having heavy tanks and they have proven to be devastating against the Russian tanks.

For instance, I read that one M1Abrams took out seven Iraqi tanks in the desert single handedly and still could not be destroyed. It was only salavged part by part since it had some engine failure or something.

Now that is the kind of tanks I want in Indian army

In this video speak Russian:
Man said: one Russian tank destroyed six of our tanks for 5 minutes and left unharmed.
It was about t-72.
So: no matter what the tank, it is important what the crew.

 

[pmaitra]

And I don't understand their philosophy either . if some expert can give us insight on it, it would be great. I mean every western country is having heavy tanks and they have proven to be devastating against the Russian tanks.

For instance, I read that one M1Abrams took out seven Iraqi tanks in the desert single handedly and still could not be destroyed. It was only salavged part by part since it had some engine failure or something.

Now that is the kind of tanks I want in Indian army

The devil is in the detail. What you have heard, is only part of the story. Those Iraqi tanks were downgraded version of their Soviet counterparts. Google "Lion of Babylon." There are plenty of discussions as to what exactly had the biggest role in destroying those Iraqi T-72s, and it was not the M1A1 Abrams.

 

[manindra]

Sir, This is what FMBT ready for prototyping and now someone is screaming hard for Russia ..

Well if it would have auto loader then what is the need of 4 men crew ?

 

[sayareakd]

So story so far,

Russians have sold T72M, GSQR was made, then change for heavy tank, Arjun tank was made, while in testing Army buy emergency purchase of T90M tanks without testing. Arjun later come into picture.

Tank contest happen, T90M was beaten by Arjun MK-1.

Now Arjun MK-2 is made. Plus DRDO asked for GSQR for FMBT.

Russia who was going to make FMBT first cancel the project. Later they made T14. (notice stress was made for crew survival, which is already in Arjun tank, so russian wake up to this fact that their tanks don't stress on survival of crew)

DGMF, issued new GSQR for FMBT family (with Russia tank in mind).

BTW few days ago our DM said. (Parrikar) "sometimes General Staff Qualitative Requirement (GSQR) laid down by Armed forces in the weapons systems to be developed in India seems like right out of ” Marvel comic Movies “

 

[Bhadra]

So story so far,

Russians have sold T72M, GSQR was made, then change for heavy tank, Arjun tank was made, while in testing Army buy emergency purchase of T90M tanks without testing. Arjun later come into picture.

Tank contest happen, T90M was beaten by Arjun MK-1.

Now Arjun MK-2 is made. Plus DRDO asked for GSQR for FMBT.

Russia who was going to make FMBT first cancel the project. Later they made T14. (notice stress was made for crew survival, which is already in Arjun tank, so russian wake up to this fact that their tanks don't stress on survival of crew)

DGMF, issued new GSQR for FMBT family (with Russia tank in mind).

BTW few days ago our DM said. (Parrikar) "sometimes General Staff Qualitative Requirement (GSQR) laid down by Armed forces in the weapons systems to be developed in India seems like right out of ” Marvel comic Movies “

Good, so this is your understanding of the whole issue ?

Does one has to be from DRDO to be a moderator? I hope you will keep that in mind while moderating !

So far as "Marvel Comic Movies" is concerned, most of present day scientific innovations were part of yesterdays marvel comic movies !! Our scientist's problems seems to be that they can not visualise and think of only bhoot mirchy.

 

[Bhadra]

So, since Arjun won the competition with T-90, take Arjun here :

Or here

Or Here :

or here

Or here

 

[bose]

^^ @Bhadra , sir which tank will operate here ? T90 ?

 

[Bhadra]

^^ @Bhadra , sir which tank will operate here ? T90 ?

Sir, in 1965, the canal system and obstacles were less developed still the tanks bogged down.. no movement beyond ten km both sides

In 1971, the irrigation system and consequentially the obstacle system were relatively more developed .. so Tanks bogged down .. once again.. no movement beyond 15 km.. both sides

Hence it is not the question of T-90 or Arjun or any existing technology.. there is a real problem and DGMF is asking for solution of the problem through technical routes.. through design route..
through out of box thinking and new ideas... something like BMP would not bog down so let us mount guns on those but a single old RPG will shatter it down .. so what .. what to do ??

Any one who has those solutions please give it .....

The story of Arjun is quite different .. it is that you are making a tank for last 30 years .. so make it.. then it has defects so rectify it.. it has further problems so amend defects.. it has become 68 tons ... no problems we will accept 124 but not beyond...

it was just patronising act if IA it at low risks.. no problem 2 regiments.. no problem make it four but nothing beyond that..... and DODOs bully IA by blackmail media campign what not and what not... no it is final.... IA says lay off.. and now it is lay off...

After all there are many good things IA has adopted in larger numbers .. DRDO products .. but DRDO has developed a culture of politicking...

 

[pmaitra]

^^ @Bhadra , sir which tank will operate here ? T90 ?

I'll give you a straight answer without bringing in a whole bunch of red herrings to obfuscate the question.

The answer is: No, T-90 will not be able to operate there.

 

[sayareakd]

Good, so this is your understanding of the whole issue ?

Does one has to be from DRDO to be a moderator? I hope you will keep that in mind while moderating !

So far as "Marvel Comic Movies" is concerned, most of present day scientific innovations were part of yesterdays marvel comic movies !! Our scientist's problems seems to be that they can not visualise and think of only bhoot mirchy.

my understanding is DGMF love for foreign maal. Or else original GSQR wont be that.
pls inform if T90M satisfy GSQR.

 

[sayareakd]

Sir, in 1965, the canal system and obstacles were less developed still the tanks bogged down.. no movement beyond ten km both sides

In 1971, the irrigation system and consequentially the obstacle system were relatively more developed .. so Tanks bogged down .. once again.. no movement beyond 15 km.. both sides

Hence it is not the question of T-90 or Arjun or any existing technology.. there is a real problem and DGMF is asking for solution of the problem through technical routes.. through design route..
through out of box thinking and new ideas... something like BMP would not bog down so let us mount guns on those but a single old RPG will shatter it down .. so what .. what to do ??

Any one who has those solutions please give it .....

The story of Arjun is quite different .. it is that you are making a tank for last 30 years .. so make it.. then it has defects so rectify it.. it has further problems so amend defects.. it has become 68 tons ... no problems we will accept 124 but not beyond...

it was just patronising act if IA it at low risks.. no problem 2 regiments.. no problem make it four but nothing beyond that..... and DODOs bully IA by blackmail media campign what not and what not... no it is final.... IA says lay off.. and now it is lay off...

After all there are many good things IA has adopted in larger numbers .. DRDO products .. but DRDO has developed a culture of politicking...

out of box thinking is flying tank.
I sad so they forget to add that FMBT should fly.

 

[Bhadra]

my understanding is DGMF love for foreign maal. Or else original GSQR wont be that.
pls inform if T90M satisfy GSQR.

If this is the standard of your comments , it is better not to spam the thread and not to troll.

http://idrw.org/russian-engineers-to-turn-armata-tank-fully-autonomous/#more-67075

When directors of the famous Terminator movie franchise came up with their models of autonomous killer robots, they couldn’t imagine that Russian military engineers might develop their own version of a military robot – the autonomous T-14 Armata tank.Russian military engineers are working to make the T-14 Armata tank, revealed to the world during the Moscow’s Victory Parade on May 9, a fully autonomous armored vehicle, Polish daily newspaper Rzeczpospolita reported.

Western military experts are worried that the new Russian tank, considered as the deadliest tank in the world, will soon fight on the battlefield autonomously with its crew operating the tank from a distance similar to a video game, the newspaper said.

Although the idea seems to come straight from modern video games, it isn’t a figment of imagination, but the work of Russian engineers developing the autonomous version of the Armata tank under the direction of Andrei Terlikov, Rzeczpospolita reported.

“On-board computer system controls most technical functions [of the tank] that allows the crew to focus on key tasks,” Ilya Demchenko, a deputy chief designer of the tank, told AFP. “For the crew, it will be like a video game, they’d only have to make final decisions.”

The new Armata tank will be a combat vehicle that is expected to form the backbone of Russian military for years to come. The tank has impressive specs and state of the art weaponry, including an active defense system that protects the armored vehicle from all sides. When the system detects an enemy missile shot at the tank, it automatically fires rounds to destroy or knock the missile off its path.


above will answer some of your assertions like flying tank, straight from Comics etc...etc..

Flying tank ... Duh ... If you do not know that modern attack helicopters like Apaches or MI 35 are indeed flying tanks then why expose your little understanding of the subject. Your one liners are indeed provocative and it is trolling..

What a state ..... here moderators troll maximum times..

 

[pmaitra]

This report from IDRW, which is derived from claims from Rzeczpospolita are things that are being envisaged in the future. There is already a discussion in progress in this regard: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/t-14-armata.32008/page-15#post-1050788

 

[Bhadra]

This report from IDRW, which is derived from claims from Rzeczpospolita are things that are being envisaged in the future. There is already a discussion in progress in this regard: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/t-14-armata.32008/page-15#post-1050788

Thanks, I am trying to follow that too. I quoted here just to impress that there can be "out of box' thinking and innovations in tank technology too, in response to some comments.

 

[bose]

I'll give you a straight answer without bringing in a whole bunch of red herrings to obfuscate the question.

The answer is: No, T-90 will not be able to operate there.

It is quite obvious that the T-90 also will not be able to operate there with more ground pressure than Arjun.

I intentionally put the question knowing very well that even much loved IA tank T-90 will not be able to operate in the same marshy land on Punjab... even the RFI for future tank with < 50T will neither...

 

[bose]

Sir, in 1965, the canal system and obstacles were less developed still the tanks bogged down.. no movement beyond ten km both sides

In 1971, the irrigation system and consequentially the obstacle system were relatively more developed .. so Tanks bogged down .. once again.. no movement beyond 15 km.. both sides

Hence it is not the question of T-90 or Arjun or any existing technology.. there is a real problem and DGMF is asking for solution of the problem through technical routes.. through design route..
through out of box thinking and new ideas... something like BMP would not bog down so let us mount guns on those but a single old RPG will shatter it down .. so what .. what to do ??

Any one who has those solutions please give it .....

Sir, from my little knowledge [I am not from military background] tells me that tanks operations are not suitable for the punjab marshy land, any large armour thrust will be dengerous and will turn into a killing flields... Even good old PT-76 will also get into trouble ... so we have to think something different strategy to fight inthose areas...

Infrantry will massive air support like helicopter gunships truck mounted recoiless guns and unguided rockets with satelite tracking can be is one of the options, but not Tanks. Either way there will be very difficult to breakthrough each other defense without big loss of man and machine...

The tanks it at all be used in those areas can only be for holding purpose that will require good armour protection...

As I have said in one of my earlier posts, that IA have to come up with a strategy on where and how to use tanks in the western front, then only it will be easy what type of Tanks IA must have.

The western countries use Heavy Tanks with > 60 T weight and they operate on all types of tarrain, do you think they are so stupid to do so ??

The story of Arjun is quite different .. it is that you are making a tank for last 30 years .. so make it.. then it has defects so rectify it.. it has further problems so amend defects.. it has become 68 tons ... no problems we will accept 124 but not beyond...

it was just patronising act if IA it at low risks.. no problem 2 regiments.. no problem make it four but nothing beyond that..... and DODOs bully IA by blackmail media campign what not and what not... no it is final.... IA says lay off.. and now it is lay off...

After all there are many good things IA has adopted in larger numbers .. DRDO products .. but DRDO has developed a culture of politicking...

Again you have started DRDO bashing, on the delay in Arjun we have discussed it out endless times... If IA can accept T-90 will many deficiencies then why not Arjun ?

Let me put it straight:

IA can not continue to import hardwares for any more time... there will have to look into local suppliers... the funds for import are drying up fast... with this current government with a very able technocrat as defense minister ... the going is to be more difficult...