Indian Army wants futuristic vehicle for its Armoured corps

[bose]

@Bhadra the level of Indigenisation in Arjun Tank is dependent on the number of such ordered...

It is economical to import than making it locally, if the number of orders are in 124's no's only...

If you order 500 Arjun Mark - II , then only it makes sence to produce locally....

 

[Khagesh]

For God sake have mercy on this thread which is about RFI for future tanks and not about men in uniform ! They certainly do not a certificate from you !

Goli maro thread ko, you have mercy on us.

Why must you act like the Knight in Shining Armour for them. How did this come about hain bhai. How did you reach the conclusion - Men In Uniform is a quality Uniformly In Men. You just want to give a free pass to the so called Succession Path.... that has fed on the sweat and blood of those who are not even remembered.

I am not doubting your intent. Only your intellect .


_________________________________________________________________________________

Breakdown: What's Happening With India’s Tank Force?​

Tuesday, May 12, 2015 by Indiandefense News
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2015/05/breakdown-whats-happening-with-indias.html


New Delhi has so far failed to successfully mass-produce an indigenously developed modern main battle tank. The majority of India’s indigenously developed third generation Arjun main battle tanks have been grounded due to technical issues and missing spare parts, Defense News reported last week.

Lie - On the one hand the critics allege that most of the tank is imported and on the other they allege technical issues and missing spare parts.
Reality - So called technical issues and missing spare parts are direct result of inadequate spares planning and incompetence of the Armour leadership to think ahead. They sat on their lazy asses after giving an order of only 124. Either that was a mistake which is hard to believe or they did it deliberately because their interests were elsewhere. Notice this is the same tactic that the IAF has used for LCA. Suppliers DGMF ke nauker nahi hain ke jab khan-bahudur darbar lagayenge tub spares mil jayenge.

Originally supposed to enter service in the Indian Army in the 1980s, the ArjunMK-I program has witnessed repeated delays due to an inadequate design concept (e.g. too much heavy armor versus too little horsepower) partially based on the German Leopard II main battle tank and a flawed procurement and testing process.

Lie - The design did not move fast for much the same reasons that LCA was sabotaged. Birds of a feather.

Lie again - Compared to its peer group (Challenger-2 and M-1A1 etc.) Arjun Mk-1 itself is overpowered. The only versions of the peer group that were overpowered compared to Arjun Mk-1 are the ones with 105 mm guns.

Reality - Arjun Mk-1 carries the same western technology (guns, engine, tranmission) that the Armour leaders ostensibly swear by. This is not even a criticism of Arjun to say that it is inadequate. If Arjun is inadequate then the world's armies are riding inadequate MBTs. Inadequacy is in the Armour leadership.

Defense News quotes an Indian official who stated that “nearly 75 percent of the 124 [Arjun] tanks with the Army are grounded.” All in all there are more than 90 technical issues. “The problems in the Arjun tank are mainly confined to its transmission system, targeting and thermal sights,” the defense official noted.

Lies again & again - 90 are not technical issues. These are technical improvements to reach a completely different Mark/Version of Arjun. The Arjun Mk-2.

Reality - Arjun Mk-1 itself has beaten the best tanks Indian Army could throw at it in a many-on-many-scenario and that were selected by a wrongful process by people entrenched in the Indian Army. People who will be taken out in due course.

“If the experience gained from Mark-1 is utilized fully there should be lesser technical problems with Mark-2 at present though reports of trials do not suggest the same

,” Rahul Bhonsle emphasized. In September 2014, the Indian Army has placed an order for 118 MK-II tanks.

Habitual lying - Rahul Bhonsle or the Army do not have the understanding of designing. They are talking out of their collective musharaffs. Notice the Armour Leadership went to the DRDO for pulling the IA out of their stupid decision on earlier acquisitions. And these were never even called as issues/deficiencies. Why was this missed out by the DGMF. Why did he not refer to the T-90 changes and T-72 changes as technical issues. Why, O why Mr. DGMF?

Reality - Notice again they have ordered only 118 of the Mk-2 Arjuns and made out a retirement plan cum RFI for FRCV.

 

[pmaitra]

The more I read this thread, I get a feeling that there is a need of a complete and thorough investigation of all the decision makers in the armed forces. If there is smoke, one must seek the fire; and I see a lot of smoke.

 

[Khagesh]

What we need to understand is the relevance of a simpler budgeting exercise.

How can we afford ammo if the gun is too expensive and breaks the bank. Low spares for Sukhois, Arjuns etc are of similar origin. Even Arjun Catapult is not being ordered further which is a much simpler machine and again the low numbers ordered will put the real fighters of Indian Army into major troubles.

What we truly need is equipment to fight those who threaten us. That can easily be done by the equipment available. I will not be surprised if the new engine being developed is put into the newer versions of Indian made and developed MBTs but for that to happen we need to keep questioning these RFIs

 

[Bhadra]

@Bhadra the level of Indigenisation in Arjun Tank is dependent on the number of such ordered...

It is economical to import than making it locally, if the number of orders are in 124's no's only...

If you order 500 Arjun Mark - II , then only it makes sence to produce locally....

Economics of scale ! DODOs have only heard about it. They do not know what it is. If an imported tank is 48 crores and indigenous inferior tank is 68 crores which fool is going to buy indigenous.

Kahesh said .. What we need to understand is the relevance of a simpler budgeting exercise

levae it at that. It is, I presume beyond your understanding.

And do not write Ram Kahani .. be to the point and precise ( Like RFI)..

There are many people here who say .. but I ma not from DRDO ... is that so.

 

[bose]

Economics of scale ! DODOs have only heard about it. They do not know what it is. If an imported tank is 48 crores and indigenous inferior tank is 68 crores which fool is going to buy indigenous.



levae it at that. It is, I presume beyond your understanding.

And do not write Ram Kahani .. be to the point and precise ( Like RFI)..

There are many people here who say .. but I ma not from DRDO ... is that so.

Once Vivekanada said some 100 years back ... Prefer a Indian DOG over a foreign GOD...

My intension is not to call Arjun a DOG and T-90 a GOD... rather the inner meanings to the statement.

[ mark the spealling of DOG & GOD !!]

Fortunately the current DM will not allow imports of Russian maal with experiences we have with Russians on T-90, Smearch & Vikramaditya etc ...

I will not be surprised to hear bad news on FGFA front too...

 

[ersakthivel]

Breakdown: What's Happening With India’s Tank Force?​

Tuesday, May 12, 2015 by Indiandefense News
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2015/05/breakdown-whats-happening-with-indias.html

New Delhi has so far failed to successfully mass-produce an indigenously developed modern main battle tank. The majority of India’s indigenously developed third generation Arjun main battle tanks have been grounded due to technical issues and missing spare parts, Defense News reported last week.

Originally supposed to enter service in the Indian Army in the 1980s, the ArjunMK-I program has witnessed repeated delays due to an inadequate design concept (e.g. too much heavy armor versus too little horsepower) partially based on the German Leopard II main battle tank and a flawed procurement and testing process.

Defense News quotes an Indian official who stated that “nearly 75 percent of the 124 [Arjun] tanks with the Army are grounded.” All in all there are more than 90 technical issues. “The problems in the Arjun tank are mainly confined to its transmission system, targeting and thermal sights,” the defense official noted.

Originally, more than 50 percent of components of the tank were imported, but this percentage has gradually diminished as various parts have been replaced by indigenous designed systems. Yet the tracked vehicle still requires foreign hardware to function and those supplied have dried up, according to the official.

“This prompted the Ministry of Defense (MoD) in late April to form a committee, headed by a retired three-star armored corps officer, to resolve the component shortages and reactivate the MBTs within two months,” IHS Jane’s Defense Weekly reported.

Rahul Bhonsle, a retired Indian Army brigadier general and defense analyst confirmed this assessment: “There are a number of issues related to functionality due to imported components, which seem to be bugging the Arjun Mark-1 fleet for some time now [sic]. The technical snags have reportedly led to much of the fleet remaining non operational, creating a void in the tank strength of the Indian Army.”

The Arjun MK-I tank was developed by the Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) and produced by the Indian Ordnance Factory’s production facility in Avadi in southern India. The official noted that the Indian Army was obliged to acquire 124 tanks by the DRDO so that the factory could remain in operation.

Due to the repeated delays, India decided to acquire T-90s main battle tanks from Russia in the early 2000s. While the first 310 were directly imported from Russia, India is currently locally producing a customized and improved version of the T-90, the T-90 M Bhishma. A total of 500 T-90 and T-90 M tanks are currently in service in the Indian Army.

India plans to field 21 tank regiments of T-90s by 2020 through license-production, with 62 tanks per unit and more than 1,300 armored fighting vehicles total, although that number could go up. However, DRDO is also working on an improved version of the Arjun, the MK-II, which has done very well in comparative trials with the T-90M, according to Defense News. It sports more than 93 improvements over the older version and with around 60 percent locally manufactured components is less depended on foreign imports, a DRDO official said.

“If the experience gained from Mark-1 is utilized fully there should be lesser technical problems with Mark-2 at present though reports of trials do not suggest the same,” Rahul Bhonsle emphasized. In September 2014, the Indian Army has placed an order for 118 MK-II tanks. However, a decision to indigenously develop a a new anti-tank missile to be fitted onto the MK-II will, in all likelihood, delay the induction of the upgraded platform.

____________________________________________________________


Who would want such a piece to the basis of future tank ?? Only DRDO and Ajay Shukla ...

Your answer is that DGMF is a fools but you yourself do not what he should be doing ... however, you yourself can not do anything or write an RFI.. However DGMF is wrong ...wrong and wrong because he is DGMF... an enemy ??

My suggestion is wait for Vaivaswat Manvantara to get over. this syndrome of no banana is going to fall will persist till then. Next will be Saavarnik Manvantar then DODOs will be able to do things for themselves..... because Saavarnik was blessed by Ma Durga..

When Tiger tank was built by Germans, did their Army gave the details for that down to ground pressure For example manufacturers of Tiger tanks were told that they need a plateform to break in heavily defended lines. Was T-34 made on specifications of USSR Army? And for that matter was AK -47 made on specifications? Those all were made on a war philosophy and war fighting doctrines as as blitzkrieg, combat rifle, which designers understood and offered their solutions. However DODOs and their bought supporters are adamant to teach Indian Army the philosophy and war doctrines. Medium tanks is a philosophy and part of a doctrine. So accept it or contest the doctrine which is beyong your capabilities.

Guys, it is design and not prototype building or production that as much as possible details must be given... Indian Army has learnt it from Arjun experience when every thing has been blamed on them and DODOs have conveniently passed the bloody buck on them for every thing..

And there is that tank man clown by the name of Ajay Shukla who says that tanks have no philosophy (only tank men have philosophy for faster promotion for which Shukla inspired group has gone to SC against the organisation). He also says designer and producer can not be different when the Russians have two tank design firms separate from production lines in Ural who developed Armata . Sukhoi and Mig have their separate commanding and huge design bureaus and the success story of those two firms is the story of their design bureaus whether it was designing engines, air frames or avionics.

DODOs have no design bureaus ... their design capability is copy and paste. Called Chepo. chepo Leopard and make Arjun. Chepo Bofors and make a howitzer. Arjun, the legendary hero ( not the tank) himself was not a chepo. He had his own qualities of design... but Arjun, the tank has neither the orginality nor the chepo factor... it has typical stamp of DODO..

Even in offering comments you guys are Chepo...

These spurious reports always quoting the "all authentic unnamed officers" are just paid news by import lobby , I myself have blasted many such paid news in my posts in tejas and arjun thread.

For example the stupid Prasoon sengupths guy 's thamasha piece called aeroindia2015 , in which he dispensed gyan like "it doesn't matter if tejas mk1 completes a vertical loop in 19 seconds in aeroinda 2013, "

Some one like you, who is defining the way DGMF should give specs for FICV or FMBT should know better than to rely on such crap.

MRF set up a track factory anticipating higher orders for arjun mk1 tracks, after the DGMF sabotaged Arjun by stopping orders with just 124 the factory was shut down.

next DRDO-Ashok leyland JV for Arjun engine was proposed. that too wound up after order was capped.

And same goes with MRO facilities for imported parts of 124 arjun mk1s. The low order quantity makes it unviable to set up them here to provide prompt services and support.

But these paid news guys twist and turn these inconvenient facts into "Arjun mk1s are grounded " sensational report.

Much the same way like rafale lobby kept tearing into the poor availability rates of su-30 MKI. Then a HAL official leaked the fact that IAF kept lowest possible spares in their depot and refused an overall maintenance contract with HAL.

Then DM came to know of this and he declared it openly, presto the availability rate of Su-30 MKI shot up by ten percent in no time.

Those T-34 , AK 47 examples are so out of place in this modern world. Those were the times when enemy had much worser weapon , so anything produced with any number of defects were par for the course. Not so today when world is flooded with designer weapons.

Coming to not giving specs "and learning from Arjun fiasco" part, How many global firms participated in the "three part design build produce " type tender for Armata or the coming Leo upgrades, or the Abrams ?

Now lets have a case study.

Five firms compete and firm A wins the design -prototype phase , but gives a deceptively lesser price to win the prize money and simply walks away from competition.

Then when Army announces a grand tender during production phase , all firms which come forward to produce it quote an exorbitant price(not an unlikey scenario, just refer to the open ended cost no bar MMRCA fiasco!!!).

And most importantly all of them will say that no indian agency has the tech capacity to absorb the super tech of the super FICV just like the fabled MMRCA winner famously said!!!

Then it transpires that it becomes financially unviable to produce the tank in needed numbers just like MMRCA.

Can the by then retired and deceased "uniforms " come back from the grave to produce a Magic FICV just by saying presto?

End result- A decade of wasted time and hasty import from another MNC critically laying open our countries most prestegious offensive arm to dependencies from abroad for ever!!!

No self respecting nation can its let devious DGMF play the "import forever" games critically wounding the core national strength and for ever expose its critical defence services to the whims and fancies of supplier nations heeding the worthless advice of few senile generals who will retire any time, Got it?

Arming a nation is the art of leveraging the existing tech into usable weapons which make atleast 50 percent of its fighting forces to make sure the country does not become a prisoner of supplier nations.

Leo has a smooth bore gun, Arjun a fully indian developed highly accurate rifled gun which has much better accuracy than T-90. And Arjun is much shorter and wider than Leo catering to DGMF requirement of low shiloute critically needed in indian operating theater where the engagement ranges were around 2 kms . Also ARJUN HAS A MUCH LOWER GROUND PRESSURE PER SQUARE INCH THAN LEO CATERING TO THE DGMF REQUIREMENT OF OPERATIONS IN INDIAN RIVERINE PUNJAB REGION. nO LEO CAN GO WHERE ARJUN PRESNTLY GOES THER. IN FACT THE FABLED LESSER WEIGHT t SERIES TANKS OF IA CANT OPERATE THERE ALSO.

The same DGMF is begging DRDO to put Ac in T-90 because the tank is unfit for prolonged desert operation due to conking out of electronics and crew fainting heat, whose invar missiles were found to be crap during testing and whole lots returned. Where were these "nationalistic journos" when all these were happening?

Also were the T-34 orders were stopped by brandishing a "brand new requirement of having lower target range for its missile like the stalled arjun mk2 /

No they were all produced continuously and improvements were made in batches. Why "these global best practices" which are suddenly appearing in FICV were forgotten then?

Which global best practice was adopted in ordering T-90 in thousands (stalling arjun citing spurious requirements) which were found out to be not suitable for prolonged periods of operation indian deseret? leading to the wise men of DGMF coming to the doors of DRDO with a begging bowl for Ac, that too after the russians and all other global firms they consulted refused help?

Which global quality control practice was adopted in accepting thousands of spurious Invar missiles for T-90s?(what is even more interesting is DGMF scuttled a perfectly working CLGM on arjun mk2 citing requirement of lesser min range while wasting tax payer money on not working Invars in thousands of crores? )

 

[ersakthivel]

Economics of scale ! DODOs have only heard about it. They do not know what it is. If an imported tank is 48 crores and indigenous inferior tank is 68 crores which fool is going to buy indigenous.



levae it at that. It is, I presume beyond your understanding.

And do not write Ram Kahani .. be to the point and precise ( Like RFI)..

There are many people here who say .. but I ma not from DRDO ... is that so.

Another white lie, the T-90 cost was projected to be less in a devious contract negotiation by leaving out gun, armor and many other critical TOTs. ANd only GOd knows whether the new batch of Invar missiles were in working condition or not.

And later when T-90 landed in indian shores its electronics were shitty and useless and we paid a fortune for french to set that right,

now we have a T-90 which is fainting its own crew instead of killing the enemy in desert!!! And IA called global tender to set Ac in T-90, Every one including Rusians refused, And now DRDO is being approached!!!

So what is the total cost of T-90(which is still in a perfectly non working condition for prolonged operations in indian deserts?)

Not even DGMF and God combined can calculate,

mean while all measure to reduce the price of Arjun mk1 by giving orders in 500 numbers were sabotaged by DGMF leading to its high cost due to unviability of producing many things than can be produced here!!!

 

[ersakthivel]

The more I read this thread, I get a feeling that there is a need of a complete and thorough investigation of all the decision makers in the armed forces. If there is smoke, one mush seek the fire; and I see a lot of smoke.

The entire forest is on fire, not just smoke from embers.

Instead of mainstream english news media going after this scam of monumental proportion called FICV, we have paid news peddling import lobby jourons masquerading as "defence experts" and fooling the nation with bogus pieces quoted just above.

We have more T-90s (planning to buy thousand more)than the Russian army has, which is still not suitable for prolonged operations in indian deserts,how strange it can get?

 

[ersakthivel]

Yeah . that's what I read too and that's what I am wondering - why Indian army is looking for medium weight tanks.

DGMF pretends that it does not have the faintest idea of

1. what is the exact weight needed to cross riverine punjab terrain.(they know it and specified it for Arjun mk1 and arjun conforms to it. They are just afraid that if they specify it again their favourite war horse may not be eligible!!)

2.What will be the LOS armor thickness needed a decade from now on. And what will be the weight of FMBT to cater to that.

3.Also whether they want two piece ammo (lesser penetration capability) of auto loader set up o f T series tanks or one piece any size fits ammo type (possibility for upgrading to longer penetration rods in future)

4. Also whether they need two men crew or not.(but they know that auto loader has a lower rate of fire , prone to jaming easily , makes canister based safe ammo storage harder ,and strains crew more , so they have specified 4 men crew for Arjun mk1 and mk2)

5.The reason they are not specifying weight this time is ,armata has grown from 6 wheel 50 ton T-90 design to more realistic, 7 wheel , 55 to 60 ton (even for three men crew). Thats why they stuck of their 50 ton requirement form their previous FMBT specs,

6. last but not the least they also pretend , that they dont know what temp must be maintained in crew cabins for prolonged operating conditions in hot and arid rajasthan deserts, because their favourite war horse may or may not have been designed with such temp allowance.(they have "forgotten " the temperature trouble they faced with t-90)

 

[ersakthivel]

DO NOT LIKE ARMATA : BUILD THIS :US ARMY'S FCS ( FUTURE COMBAT SYSTEM)​

View attachment 5363

has US allocated funds for it?

have you read the CAG report on first few batches of R77?

tell me which global best practices adopted here by IAF?

Was DRDO responsible for this also?

 

[Bhadra]

DO NOT LIKE ARMATA : BUILD THIS :US ARMY'S FCS ( FUTURE COMBAT SYSTEM)

 

[Bhadra]

DO NOT LIKE ARMATA : BUILD THIS :US ARMY'S FCS ( FUTURE COMBAT SYSTEM)

 

[Bhadra]

So You Hate Armata : Then Build this

​

 

[ersakthivel]

"

DO NOT LIKE ARMATA : BUILD THIS :US ARMY'S FCS ( FUTURE COMBAT SYSTEM)

Ok about future, Now some blast from the past,

hhhhmmmmmmmmm, Again global best practices into play by DGMF on the famed T-90 buy!!!!

http://archive.defensenews.com/arti.../Indian-Army-Upgrade-T-90-Tanks-Domestic-Help

"The Indian Army will upgrade more than 600 Russian-built T-90 tanks by adding new features and replacing their thermal imaging sights, navigation systems and fire control systems at a cost of more than $250 million.

The upgraded T-90 tanks will have air-conditioning systems, which will be developed by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The tanks’ existing armor protection systems, navigation gear, thermal imaging sights and fire control systems will be replaced.

The lack of an air conditioning system in these tanks caused damage to their thermal imaging systems when operating in hot climates, an Army official said.

“DRDO had earlier attempted to mount air conditioning systems on the tanks, but were stopped by Russia, citing intellectual property rights,” said Arun Sehgal, a retired Army brigadier general and defense analyst.

“The Russians were then asked to fit the air conditioning systems in the T-90 tanks, but the attempt was unsuccessful,” Sehgal said. The intellectual property rights issue has since been resolved between India and Russia."

 

[ersakthivel]

So You Hate Armata : Then Build this

​

Just ask the DGMF what will happen to this heavenly toy , when the 150 MM dia 2000 meters per second muzzle velocity new chinese gun ( in development ) gets a shot at this one!!

how many feet will it climb in the air after being hit?

I bet my two cents that the entire turret will be ripped open in a single shot and crew taken prisoner in no time!!!

ofcourse DGMF should float another global tender to know that!!!

Armata is a russian attempt at getting closer to Arjun or western level crew protection armor.

trusting their space age remote turret is a glorious path to suicide!!! remember the T-90 , vikramadhitya.

it is stupid of a country of india's stature to sink in billions in some crooked (bribe filled ) FICV design-prototype-make multi billion dollar circus.

Just ask for new futures on Arjun and standardize IA's bridging euippment on 70 tons, because even armata at 55-60 tons wont cross older bridges in indian border areas built during british era.

So it is time to stop this white lie of "heavier Arjun unfit for ops" and get some tech savvy professionals into DGMF.

 

[Bhadra]

So you Know How to make Tanks ? Build This !!

​

 

[Bhadra]

STOP POLITICKING : START BUILDING THIS TANK : DO NOT CRY GANGES

 

[Bhadra]

THE FUTURE IS 40 TON TANK : NOT 68 TONS, SOON TO BE 80 TONS BEHEMOTH

​

 

[Bhadra]

MAKE THIS TANK : CAN YOU ?​

The FCS - Characteristics and Major Capabilities

Lethality - FCS Armament Choices
· Primary Armament System - Main
Gun Armament Candidates: The following
are the potential prime candidates
for the FCS’s Main Armament
System (MAS):
- Conventional solid propellant (SP)
120/140mm smoothbore guns
- Liquid propellant (LP)
- Electro-thermal chemical (ETC)
- Electromagnetic (EM)
- Antiarmor, antiair guided or ‘fireand-
forget’ type tactical missiles.