Indian Army wants futuristic vehicle for its Armoured corps

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Mad Indian

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Well, I din't realize that I was speaking to a full backed retard!!!

If it still doesn't get through to you, then let me explain,

DRDO is a govt lab that gets its budget sanctioned for building stuff according to the exact specs given by GSQR or ASR. It is not an MNC arms maker that uses slush money to ring secret swiss bank accounts to palm off whatever they produce , by getting the top defence guys to change their specs in favor, like it happened in MMRCA, bofors, T-90 acquisition, Agusta westland, the fully faulty Nav attack system bearing jaguar purchase, the cancelled LUH tender , so on and so forth.

The IA is slyly aiming to buy Armata after giving such a useless RFI which will drag on forever, Then the same way IAF is advancing its "dwindling sq strength "( after using every trick in the book to delay tejas, ) IA too will plumb for direct import like IAF tied with rafale.

if the IA wants armata , then it is its job to give
1.exact weight of armata,
2.auto loader three men crew
3.remote turret ,
4. 55 to 60 ton specs,
5. Armata's ground pressure per square inch, ets, etc,
6. Its power to weight ratio,
7. its gradiant climbing specs etc, etc,
8. its gun cal dia, muzzle velocity etc, etc

Thats for what guys in DMGF are there for,

Why are they beating around the bush with
1. all vague terms like,
1.medium weight,
2.non overlapping crew,
3, not a single word on the auto loader,
5, no caliber or dia for its main gun,

nonsense called FRCV?

Only reason is to reject anything advanced by CVRDE citing this or that useless reason.
Stop posting stupid points. Army has nothing whatsoever to do with DRDO funding. DRDO not being an MNC has nothing to do with this project and its incompetence. DRDO will be paid whether they deliver a product or not. There can be no excuse from DRDO in this matter, least of which is funding
 

Mad Indian

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You neither know what is a fan or what is a boy.

just read the passage below to know what kind of senile fools who are playing this ,"chase my ass GSQR game with out the faintest of idea of what a real world fighting platform is!!!"

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/indian-army-chasing-pipe-dreams-forever/article7350786.ece

Overambitious norms in Qualitative Requirements are largely responsible for the alarming equipment shortage that the forces face today.
The Indian Army recently dispatched a global Request for Information (RfI) for a multi-purpose Future Ready Combat Vehicle (FRCV), which has generated much mirth in military-industrial circles, for its sheer ridiculousness and operational folly.

The Army’s request is for an FRCV that will not only serve as a ‘medium’-sized main battle tank to replace the Army’s ageing fleet of licence-built Russian T-72s but also as a ‘light-tracked and wheeled tank’, built on the same platform. In layman terms, this is like asking for a Humvee and a Maruti 800 on the same platform. Hopefully, the document will be either withdrawn or amended before its July 31 deadline.

Surely, the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces at Army Headquarters, responsible for issuing the request, realises the irony and irrationality of drawing up such absurd general staff qualitative requirements (GSQRs), which are technologically impossible for any manufacturer to fulfil.

What is all the more surprising is that such QRs are formulated after extensive discussion, not only by the division concerned — in this case, the Mechanised Forces — but finally approved by the Army’s Deputy Chief (Planning & Systems), who is responsible for acquisitions. His office, as are those involved in formulating the requests and the subsequent proposals, or tenders, is purportedly staffed by competent scientific and technical advisers.

Senior Army officers concede that such over-ambitious and flawed requests for information, leading to equally over-stretched, faulty and diluted tenders, are largely responsible for the alarming equipment shortage that the forces face today. The shortfall includes small arms, howitzers, assorted helicopters, armour with night-fighting capacity, air defence capability and varied ordnance, among other things. Although Army Headquarters blames the hidebound and ill-informed Ministry of Defence (MoD) bureaucrats for this, it also has largely itself to blame for the glaring deficiencies.

‘Blinkered views’
“The whole process is carried out with limited knowledge and blinkered views,” said former Maj. Gen. Mrinal Suman, the Army’s leading authority on acquisitions and offsets. Poorly conceived, formulated and drafted QRs create confusion and delays, resulting in the entire process being aborted much later, he said. The Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence concurs.

In its report tabled in Parliament on April 30, 2012, the Committee declared that as many as 41 of the Army’s proposals for diverse equipment in recent years were withdrawn or terminated. The reasons included faulty or over-ambitious qualitative requirements. The Committee report unambiguously pinned responsibility on the Army. The MoD and attendant financial advisers had no role in framing weapon QRs. Service Headquarters consult with the largely uniformed Directorate General Quality Assurance (DGQA), sometimes with inputs from the Defence Research and Development Organisation.

The typical process is this: all available literature on the equipment is gathered and its multiple characteristics collated. The idea is to include as many features as possible to demonstrate how exhaustively the task has been performed. Thereafter, as the draft travels up the chain of command, it gathers additional parameters, as each officer feels compelled to suggest more improvements. “The final QR takes the shape of a well-compiled wish list of utopian dimensions, which simply do not exist,” stated Gen. Suman.

For instance, in 2004, the Army issued a tender for 168 light utility helicopters to replace the obsolete fleet of Cheetahs and Chetaks inducted into service in the mid-60s. The proposal required the chopper to hover uninterruptedly for 30 minutes, a capability no helicopter in the world possessed at the time. The maximum hover time then available, with a U.S. helicopter, was seven minutes. The Army was forced to withdraw the tender soon after.

Similarly, a tender to upgrade FH-77B 155mm/39 calibre howitzers, acquired in the 1980s, had to be scrapped twice, first in 2006 and again in 2009, as the QRs drawn up by the Artillery Directorate were unworkable. A BAE Systems official associated with the upgrade at the time said that the requirements were ‘unrealistic’ for these old guns, expecting more capability than even new howitzers.

In 2013, the request sent to at least five overseas vendors to replace the Army’s obsolete Bofors 40mm L-70 and Soviet ZU-23mm 2B air defence guns had to be scrapped. All five vendors declared the requirements to be unreasonable, as they demanded a firing rate of 500 rounds per minute, a capability no gun in the world possessed.

The same has applied to tenders for tank fire control systems, long range observation systems and for different ammunition types, all terminated over the years on grounds of overreach and unrealism. It would appear that the Indian Army’s search for matchless, and globally unavailable, equipment and capabilities triumphs over and over again.

COntrast this monumental stupidity of IA and IAF ,with the discipline shown by navy in ensuring each cadet must be a cadet engineer while in service, and just go and get hold of the detailed ship design ideas sent to shipyards , where one indigenous war ship after the other , including N subs , regularly sets sail.

Does the navy supplies a barrels full of whiskey , and adorn its cadets with a bunch or prostitutes , and ask them to aspire for mythical "Black pearl' to unlock the Kim Davy jones Locker? in the same way DGMF is expecting its future tank crews to do?

No. It instills a discipline and goes for realistic planning with in its limited budget and has now made the county proud with Arihant induction.

Just look at the IA and IAf bitching about everything from INSAS, Tejas to Basic trainer all the time and stalling local manufacture of any worthwhile combat platform.

Did you even read what you posted? Where does it say why this RFI is BS ?
 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

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Stop posting stupid points. Army has nothing whatsoever to do with DRDO funding. DRDO not being an MNC has nothing to do with this project and its incompetence. DRDO will be paid whether they deliver a product or not. There can be no excuse from DRDO in this matter, least of which is funding
Reading the discussions here it seems like a catch-22 situation.

The armed forces know DRDO will delay projects so they can make money by using foreign vendors and DRDO knows that in the end armed forces would not buy their product, so why hurry! Now either the armed forces are forced to buy DRDO stuff or DRDO is forced to deliver on time to correct the process.
 

Mad Indian

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Reading the discussions here it seems like a catch-22 situation.

The armed forces know DRDO will delay projects so they can make money by using foreign vendors and DRDO knows that in the end armed forces would not buy their product, so why hurry! Now either the armed forces are forced to buy DRDO stuff or DRDO is forced to deliver on time to correct the process.
And DRDO does not get any cuts in the imports it does? DRDO is pathetic and sooner we delink it from armed forces the better. Time to let the private partners to take up the manufacturing of defence equipment.

One good thing though is our. DM is fully aware of this problem and is very intent on fixing it. DRDO has cried wolf too many times to take them seriously any more
 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

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And DRDO does not get any cuts in the imports it does? DRDO is pathetic and sooner we delink it from armed forces the better. Time to let the private partners to take up the manufacturing of defence equipment.

One good thing though is our. DM is fully aware of this problem and is very intent on fixing it. DRDO has cried wolf too many times to take them seriously any more
DRDO might be pathetic but you cannot ignore the role of middlemen in defence acquisitions.
 

Khagesh

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What middlemen, the DGMF himself is subject of doubt. Why else would he give such a Paki styled RFI.

All he wants is to be able to say - nahi abhi aur delay and just to save my own ass he will call it 'improvements'.

DGMF just wants to avoid all responsibility.

But whatever the attitude of the DGMF and cohorts can a nationalist afford more Khetarpals? If not then why are these inadequate tanks being imported. Why is an inordinate amount spent on Capital acquisitions when they don't have enough money for buying ammo.

Because................they already know that they will easily get more Khetarpals even as they themselves angle for positions and pelf using their old-boys-network.
 

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@Khagesh ..

Bhaye... your language and accusation is getting worse and worse.... keep to the topic..

I asked you many times , can you write one page RFI .. say three or four or ten pages..

Cool down Bhai or you will have a Karachi heat stroke.... Tum burbak to nahin ho ?
 

Khagesh

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Ok janeman, we already know the present DGMF thinks it would be one swell of an idea to 'design' an armoured ambulance based on his hi-philosophy of an FCRV (Foreign Chamchon ka Reentry Vehicle). I hope the greatness of the DGMF's 'philosophy' does not rob him of some good sleep - warna desh ko kaun bachayega.

But wait some equally good philosopher-warrior had said the following:
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article7118.ece
You will get such large orders from the Indian army in the future that your machines will be running for the next 15 years,” Lieutenant General Duleep Bhardwaj, Director General Mechanised Forces said. He was there to receive the first ambulance on behalf of the Chief of Staff.
Abhi a dumb gangudin like me fails to understand which one is/was lying. After all you cannot have so many bloody ambulance types in the system.

Anyhow I thought the earlier DGMF must have been a very charitable man after all he wanted to give 15 years worth of orders. So what happened to the Armoured Ambulance. Here's what (from the same link of August 2009):
The Army has already ordered 288 armoured tracked ambulances. So far however, the Ordnance Factory has assembled only 50 such ambulances so that the army can recommend further changes, once the vehicles have been used in combat operations.
And why......well I be damned....again from the same link.............because:
Although the first model was ready in December 2005, it had to undergo several changes before a trial in September 2006. Three years and 56 modifications later, 10 vehicles were rolled out ready to be used by the Indian Army.
So between September 2006 and August 2009 OFB Medak produces 50 armoured ambulances (average comes to 15.5 per year). So what is the 15 year order then. Its 288.

Now for these they would off-course want full servicability too. Otherwise they will have to bear the pain of seeing more Khetarpals......How can they. These DGMFs are very patriotic people after all.

Now somebody has got to ask these DGMFs if the supplier is their son-in-law, their damad, that he should expectantly look at the DGMF's nawabi face so the DGMF in his high-minded magnanimity, in his darbar, release some progress payments and saddle him again with more modifications after every 50 units are supplied.

Mazak bana ke rakha hai.
 

ersakthivel

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sORRY @ersakhtivel ... very poor arguments not expected from you.




I thought that is what DRDO is not ! It is supposed to be leading "scientific", a visionary organisation which has certain labs with them for experiments and development. The role and mission of DRDO needs to be read and reread by you again and again.



In terms of functional ethos, culture and bending all rules , DRDO is worst of them all. MNC at least has to compete and produce something worthwhile to remain in business. But DRDO has nothing of that sort to do. They simply have to grab all projects, work on nothing, claim monopoly on all defence and defence related demands and open a line of funding and then enjoy and enjoy.. you are the worst kinds of parasites who just for nothing claim all kinds of exclusivity and monopoly even on how a soldier would shit !!



Very well, so they have not given those many same details and specifications. It means they have something else in mind. Let Armata give their design and DGMF accept it . Has DGMF prevented you to give same specifications ? No... but you are incompetent to provide that since you have no basis or claim to provide that.



YOU GIVE THEMALL THAT : THAT IS WHAT EXACTLY THEY WANT . DO IT BOY!



Up NORTH THEY SAY " Naach Na Jane Aangan Tedha"... means the dancing floor being uneven is a good reason to extend when you do not know how to dance.....



CVRDE is a useless organisation being the worst amongst DRDO junkets.
SO from your failure to reply to the points I raised about ground pressure per sq inch and river fording capability of Arjun , it is crystal clear that you know next to nothing about MBTs.

What they say Up North or uselessness of CVRDE , we can discuss later,

First reply to a few simple questions,

1.List the ground pressure sq inch of all IA tanks and say which tank will traverse marshlands river beds better?

2. Which type of ammo has better development prospect, one piece ammo or two piece,And what is its relationship with auto loader?

3.which type of gun has higher .firing range, rifled of smooth bore? Why?

4.Which tank in IA is fit to operate for prolonged periods in indian desert condition with out AC?

5.The T-90 armor and gun barrel(most crucial elements of any MBT) or manufactured from the technology developed for Arjun program by CVRDE-Right or wrong?

6. All the Invar missiles supplied by russians for T-90 were bound to be defective and sent back to russia-right or wrong?

7. During Operation parakram IA panicked and warned the NDA govt that the T-90s thermal vision and other electronics dont function in desert , and from that time on IA is begging at the same doorsteps of the same hated CVRDE to fix AC to make the T-90 work in desert -Right or wrong?

8. But Arjun does not need AC as it has enough pace and ventilation and heat hardened electronics and now ready for desert warfae any time-Right or wrong.

9. Any External Ac fitting to t-90 will hugely compromise its fighting capability , because it will be the first thing to get busted from stray sharpnells in any artillery barrage, right or wrong?

10. Also the crew in t-90 can not withstand stifling desert heat and a crew man fainted during the exercise due to heat right or wrong?

11.With such comedy of errors under their belt ,how do you expect DGMF to evaluate FRCV about which they dont even have the faintest idea left to themselves?

12. Tell me which tank developer worth his salt will develop the futuristic tank as mentioned by IA for contract labour and hand over the entire Intellectual property right to IA as mentioned in the RFI. Dont IA remember how Dassault simply refused to part with TOT to HAL and refused to abide by the initial offer price leading to the cancellation tender.

this comedy piece called RFI for FRCV expects even more from the vendors. The DGMF wants to be the sole rights holder of the tank!!!!

Do these senile guys at DGMF have any understanding about the commercial scene in todays international arms market? Which manufacturer is ready to part with his Ip rights after doing a decade of money guzzling , design of MBT and hand it over to IA on a platter.

There in lies the answer. IA is expecting brahmos or FGFA type name sake JV and expects to hold the rights of a " armata under another name", with russinas bagging all the money .Thats why the RFI released to coincide with Armata debut is nothing but a cover attempt to buy Armata under a different name, not just armata but the entire family of mechanized vehicle and perpetuate the bondage forever.


Thats why nothing is mentioned in precise value bands denoting upper or lower values for any critical parameter.because if it is mentioned precisely there will be many values that armata wont conform to it. thats why all specs are left vague.

i am not going to let you off lightly.

I will ask the same set of ten question every time, when you hold forth on the merits of the bogus FRCV- RFI
of IA.

Lets see how you answer them.
 
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Mad Indian

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DRDO might be pathetic but you cannot ignore the role of middlemen in defence acquisitions.
You are right but middle men exist for the stuff DRDO buys and paints as indigenous too. Even the tejas is not indigenous when we have ! So its a moot point to bring it up as an excuse against army since both army and DRDO engage with them and engage in corruption.
 

Mad Indian

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DRDO might be pathetic but you cannot ignore the role of middlemen in defence acquisitions.
You are right but middle men exist for the stuff DRDO buys and paints as indigenous too. Even the tejas is not indigenous when we have ! So its a moot point to bring it up as an excuse against army since both army and DRDO engage with them and engage in corruption.
 

Khagesh

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@Khagesh ..

Bhaye... your language and accusation is getting worse and worse.... keep to the topic..

I asked you many times , can you write one page RFI .. say three or four or ten pages..

Cool down Bhai or you will have a Karachi heat stroke.... Tum burbak to nahin ho ?
1) What have I accused? And who have I accused? I am merely questioning.

2) RFI is the job of the DGMF. Something he is refusing to do. Too many youngsters have fought for these wanna be high-commissioners and governors. At some point the DGMF should also be explaining how a tank transforms into an a bloody ambulance? Will he be satisfied with a 1500 hp engine would he require a different one? Will it have the same transmission if the engine is to change or a different one? Will it have the same chassis or a different one?

3) Burbak........:devil:.... You were the one who brought in Merkhapa into this thread just after putting pictures of paddy fields. A tank with 15% extra ground pressure compared to Arjun which has already crossed Rivers.
 

Mad Indian

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SO from your failure to reply to the points I raised about ground pressure per sq inch and river fording capability of Arjun , it is crystal clear that you know next to nothing about MBTs.

What they say Up North or uselessness of CVRDE , we can discuss later,

First reply to a few simple questions,

1.List the ground pressure sq inch of all IA tanks and say which tank will traverse marshlands river beds better?

2. Which type of ammo has better development prospect, one piece ammo or two piece,And what is its relationship with auto loader?

3.which type of gun has higher .firing range, rifled of smooth bore? Why?

4.Which tank in IA is fit to operate for prolonged periods in indian desert condition with out AC?

5.The T-90 armor and gun barrel(most crucial elements of any MBT) or manufactured from the technology developed for Arjun program by CVRDE-Right or wrong?

6. All the Invar missiles supplied by russians for T-90 were bound to be defective and sent back to russia-right or wrong?

7. During Operation parakram IA panicked and warned the NDA govt that the T-90s thermal vision and other electronics dont function in desert , and from that time on IA is begging at the same doorsteps of the same hated CVRDE to fix AC to make the T-90 work in desert -Right or wrong?

8. But Arjun does not need AC as it has enough pace and ventilation and heat hardened electronics and now ready for desert warfae any time-Right or wrong.

9. Any External Ac fitting to t-90 will hugely compromise its fighting capability , because it will be the first thing to get busted from stray sharpnells in any artillery barrage, right or wrong?

10. Also the crew in t-90 can not withstand stifling desert heat and a crew man fainted during the exercise due to heat right or wrong?

11.With such comedy of errors under their belt ,how do you expect DGMF to evaluate FRCV about which they dont even have the faintest idea left to themselves?

12. Tell me which tank developer worth his salt will develop the futuristic tank as mentioned by IA for contract labour and hand over the entire Intellectual property right to IA as mentioned in the RFI. Dont IA remember how Dassault simply refused to part with TOT to HAL and refused to abide by the initial offer price leading to the cancellation tender.

this comedy piece called RFI for FRCV expects even more from the vendors. The DGMF wants to be the sole rights holder of the tank!!!!

Do these senile guys at DGMF have any understanding about the commercial scene in todays international arms market?




i am not going to let you off lightly.

I will ask the same set of ten question every time, when you hold forth on the merits of the bogus FRCV- RFI
of IA.

Lets see how you answer them.
Dude , this is the problem with people like you. All the points you have raised has already been addressed by people like p2prada 1 year back. And yet you refuse to accept it due to your bias. Nothing can be done about that.

IA has logistical problems with Arjun since entire logistic chain of IA is for T90s and 72s, yes or no? How do you fight war without logistic support. Even in t90 vs Arjun thread this was brought up but none of you fanboys answered it and instead shouted only weight per square inch and what not.
 

ersakthivel

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Dude , this is the problem with people like you. All the points you have raised has already been addressed by people like p2prada 1 year back. And yet you refuse to accept it due to your bias. Nothing can be done about that.

IA has logistical problems with Arjun since entire logistic chain of IA is for T90s and 72s, yes or no? How do you fight war without logistic support. Even in t90 vs Arjun thread this was brought up but none of you fanboys answered it and instead shouted only weight per square inch and what not.
List the weights of T-72 , T-90 and the present armata which is the genesis behind the RFI.
They will be increasing from 50 tons of T series tanks to 55-60 tons in armata.

So if we take your argument that IA has to rely on the T-72 logistics alone it cant even buy Armata!!!

SO they can simply declare that T-90 is their forever MBT and spare the nation this RFI for FRCV thamasha. IS that correct?

You dont win a war by logistics alone. You need your MBTs to have enough armour to withstand the hits and win the war. You prepare your logistics to cater to that eventuality.

With 2000 mts per second muzzle velocity 150 mm dia guns under development by chinese(will surely be gifted to PAK)there is no way we can even think about giving such vague useless RFI for ,"medium weight category" tank with toy turrets " and hope to secure the country.

Piling up lame and useless arguments is not worth your effort.

And P2P is expert of nothing , thats why he ran away. Why dont you mail my eleven queries to him and get an answer?

" 1.List the ground pressure sq inch of all IA tanks and say which tank will traverse marshlands river beds better?

2. Which type of ammo has better development prospect, one piece ammo or two piece,And what is its relationship with auto loader?

3.which type of gun has higher .firing range, rifled of smooth bore? Why?

4.Which tank in IA is fit to operate for prolonged periods in indian desert condition with out AC?

5.The T-90 armor and gun barrel(most crucial elements of any MBT) or manufactured from the technology developed for Arjun program by CVRDE-Right or wrong?

6. All the Invar missiles supplied by russians for T-90 were bound to be defective and sent back to russia-right or wrong?

7. During Operation parakram IA panicked and warned the NDA govt that the T-90s thermal vision and other electronics dont function in desert , and from that time on IA is begging at the same doorsteps of the same hated CVRDE to fix AC to make the T-90 work in desert -Right or wrong?

8. But Arjun does not need AC as it has enough pace and ventilation and heat hardened electronics and now ready for desert warfae any time-Right or wrong.

9. Any External Ac fitting to t-90 will hugely compromise its fighting capability , because it will be the first thing to get busted from stray sharpnells in any artillery barrage, right or wrong?

10. Also the crew in t-90 can not withstand stifling desert heat and a crew man fainted during the exercise due to heat right or wrong?

11.With such comedy of errors under their belt ,how do you expect DGMF to evaluate FRCV about which they dont even have the faintest idea left to themselves?

12. Tell me which tank developer worth his salt will develop the futuristic tank as mentioned by IA for contract labour and hand over the entire Intellectual property right to IA as mentioned in the RFI. Dont IA remember how Dassault simply refused to part with TOT to HAL and refused to abide by the initial offer price leading to the cancellation tender.

this comedy piece called RFI for FRCV expects even more from the vendors. The DGMF wants to be the sole rights holder of the tank!!!!

Do these senile guys at DGMF have any understanding about the commercial scene in todays international arms market? Which manufacturer is ready to part with his Ip rights after doing a decade of money guzzling , design of MBT and hand it over to IA on a platter.

There in lies the answer. IA is expecting brahmos or FGFA type name sake JV and expects to hold the rights of a " armata under another name", with russinas bagging all the money .Thats why the RFI released to coincide with Armata debut is nothing but a cover attempt to buy Armata under a different name, not just armata but the entire family of mechanized vehicle and perpetuate the bondage forever.
"


What is being discussed here is concerned with country's future security , Not the expert depth of your or my opinion. Answer the questions and lets see how much you know,
 

Mad Indian

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List the weights of T-72 , T-90 and the present armata which is the genesis behind the RFI.
They will be increasing from 50 tons of T series tanks to 55-60 tons in armata.

So if we take your argument that IA has to rely on the T-72 logistics alone it cant even buy Armata!!!

SO they can simply declare that T-90 is their forever MBT and spare the nation this RFI for FRCV thamasha. IS that correct?

You dont win a war by logistics alone. You need your MBTs to have enough armour to withstand the hits and win the war. You prepare your logistics to cater to that eventuality.

With 2000 mts per second muzzle velocity 150 mm dia guns under development by chinese(will surely be gifted to PAK)there is no way we can even think about giving such vague useless RFI for ,"medium weight category" tank with toy turrets " and hope to secure the country.

This is probably the silliest thing I have heard from you -armor protection being more important than logistics. Yeah fing right. We can fight a war with Pakis without taking Arjun to the battle fronts. Awesome idea. Let's keep them within our borders since we don't have logistic support for their operation in pak

Just as I thought, You have no answer to the argument that Arjun lacks the logistical support needed for mass deployment. So you can stop your rhetoric against t90 now.
 

ersakthivel

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This is probably the silliest thing I have heard from you -armor protection being more important than logistics. Yeah fing right. We can fight a war with Pakis without taking Arjun to the battle fronts. Awesome idea. Let's keep them within our borders since we don't have logistic support for their operation in pak

Just as I thought, You have no answer to the argument that Arjun lacks the logistical support needed for mass deployment. So you can stop your rhetoric against t90 now.
SO if sending poorly armored tanks with lightning logistics as a death trap to its own crew men is your idea of war, I dont know what to say at all!!!

It is the years long metal torture of following P2P as guru that is making you post such useless stuff!!!

Arjun can be transported by rail, with no modification to carriage.

And Army is already standardizing on 70 tank bridge laying equipment for its all future tanks.

Arjun can cross marshy terrain much better than T-90 because it has lower ground pressure per square inch.

So you dont have to worry about "transporting Arjuns" anywhere. The logistics are there in plenty. All NATO countries transport their 60 ton tanks in all third world county infra during each war for the past 60 years.

ANd for your kind information the weight difference between armata and arjun is in single digit tons , even though Arjun has a four men crew and armata three men crew,

if IA says that they want three men crew clearly then new arjun mk3 with all asked by IA also will have the same weight as armata!!!
 

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@ersakhathivel

Do you think I am a child? All your questions have no answers so far in tank technology worldwide... and by the way ground pressure bullshit has no solution where wider tracks can not mount on rail rolling stocks, tank trailers and can not cross bridges...

If the tanks can not reach battlefield / battle ground what is use of singing it's praises. To keep those in garages ?? Even the garages will have to be newly built....

I do not wish to further elaborate on that due to obvious reasons !!

You DODOs want entire infrastructure of the country to be rebuilt to suit your F***k - in DUD ? You all must be idiots then..

Let us take all your technological marvels and build a new suitable tank.. Arjun is a no go...

Weight. width, length , height .. transmission, suspension , gun, ammunition ... you have given IA all problems..
 

Bhadra

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if IA says that they want three men crew clearly then new arjun mk3 with all asked by IA also will have the same weight as armata!!!
Then respond to RFI accordingly... why orchestrate a rudali choir.. Mar gay Mar gaya.. and all that..
 

ersakthivel

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@ersakhathivel

Do you think I am a child? All your questions have no answers so far in tank technology worldwide... and by the way ground pressure bullshit has no solution where wider tracks can not mount on rail rolling stocks, tank trailers and can not cross bridges...

If the tanks can not reach battlefield / battle ground what is use of singing it's praises. To keep those in garages ?? Even the garages will have to be newly built....

I do not wish to further elaborate on that due to obvious reasons !!

You DODOs want entire infrastructure of the country to be rebuilt to suit your F***k - in DUD ? You all must be idiots then..

Let us take all your technological marvels and build a new suitable tank.. Arjun is a no go...

Weight. width, length , height .. transmission, suspension , gun, ammunition ... you have given IA all problems..
no you are not an innocent child, (which would have learned a lot from simply googling the answers for the 12 questions!!)

You have a vested interest of spreading as much lies as possible, with out taking part in any meaningful debate!!!

Which fool told you wider tracks can not be carried on rail wagons and can not cross bridges?

All Indian railways needed to do was to put some logs under arjun tank so that its tracks dont scrape the platform!!!

is that a martian logistics solution for you? Are you afraid that there wont be enough logs in india to be put on railway wagons?

ANd armata weighs 55 to 60 tons. SO DGMF wants russinas to upgrade the entire infra in south asia?

Weight difference between armata and Arjun is in single digit tons only.

So it is crystal clear now that where ever Arjun cant go, Armata too cant.

And whatever infra doesn't suit Arjun wont suit Armata either.

if the latest version russian tank weight 55 -60 tons, then how do you expect a much lighter tank that will fulfill the future needs of IA into next few decades?

traditionally russians are the light tank makers, they themselves are upgrading to 55-60 ton tanks !!! That too for three men crew.

So this lack of infar stuff you are peddling here is simply just another white lie!!!

So if the IA wants crew safety modern MBT, they have to create infra that is the same as the one that is required for Arjun!!!

Or do they expect some one to pluck a 40 ton medium weight tank rabbit out of any magicians hat?, that can cater to all their future needs?

It is stupid to even imagine the same when chinese are designing much bigger 150 mm dia gun with 2000 meter velocity. it is a treason to ask for mild armored medium weight category tank in this scenario where even russians are leaning towards heavy tanks (that too for three men crew!!!)

All the line drawings and models you posted are only going to be manufactured in MARS!!!, so time for reality check.

So the same set of 12 questions about which you have no clue whatsoever,


" 1.List the ground pressure sq inch of all IA tanks and say which tank will traverse marshlands river beds better?

2. Which type of ammo has better development prospect, one piece ammo or two piece,And what is its relationship with auto loader?

3.which type of gun has higher .firing range, rifled of smooth bore? Why?

4.Which tank in IA is fit to operate for prolonged periods in indian desert condition with out AC?

5.The T-90 armor and gun barrel(most crucial elements of any MBT) or manufactured from the technology developed for Arjun program by CVRDE-Right or wrong?

6. All the Invar missiles supplied by russians for T-90 were bound to be defective and sent back to russia-right or wrong?

7. During Operation parakram IA panicked and warned the NDA govt that the T-90s thermal vision and other electronics dont function in desert , and from that time on IA is begging at the same doorsteps of the same hated CVRDE to fix AC to make the T-90 work in desert -Right or wrong?

8. But Arjun does not need AC as it has enough pace and ventilation and heat hardened electronics and now ready for desert warfae any time-Right or wrong.

9. Any External Ac fitting to t-90 will hugely compromise its fighting capability , because it will be the first thing to get busted from stray sharpnells in any artillery barrage, right or wrong?

10. Also the crew in t-90 can not withstand stifling desert heat and a crew man fainted during the exercise due to heat right or wrong?

11.With such comedy of errors under their belt ,how do you expect DGMF to evaluate FRCV about which they dont even have the faintest idea left to themselves?

12. Tell me which tank developer worth his salt will develop the futuristic tank as mentioned by IA for contract labour and hand over the entire Intellectual property right to IA as mentioned in the RFI. Dont IA remember how Dassault simply refused to part with TOT to HAL and refused to abide by the initial offer price leading to the cancellation tender.

this comedy piece called RFI for FRCV expects even more from the vendors. The DGMF wants to be the sole rights holder of the tank!!!!
 
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