Indian Army wants futuristic vehicle for its Armoured corps

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jackprince

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@Khagesh @ersakthivel @bose


Instead of bitching about the RFI on how it is rigged to suit Armada, why dont the DRDO just design their own Armada? Are they incompetent?
Simple. Lack of fund. Lack of manpower. To start working on new tank design DRDO NEEDS green signal from MoD. DRDO is not a private ltd. Comlany nor a corporation, but a research division of MoD. Nothing preemptive can be done by DRDO. Also the apathy shown by IA towards Arjun is enough to discourage even the hardiest stallwart of DRDO to invest any more in a project, which will not see the light of day. People forget that many a scientists working in DRDO are there not only for the paycheck which is not fat enough compared to the global market.
 

Bhadra

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@Mad Indian

I think if they give this US FCS design and if accepted , DRDO will mint millions of $ as every thing in it will have to imported ... the more the merrier !

Foreign mal and millions of dollars of commission ! DODOs must understand their own language and that they can be paid back in the same coin... their inferior propaganda can be mounted on them so easily... poor chaps. The day every soldier of the forces feels slighted of their false accusations.. and stupid rants - that will their end !!

In my humble observation the fight in Indian Defence Industry is for who imports ? MoD, DRDO or DPSU ? Forces are no where in between !! MoD have wisely let the DODOs loose on IA... that is what MoD is all about !
 

Shaitan

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@Khagesh @ersakthivel @bose


Instead of bitching about the RFI on how it is rigged to suit Armada, why dont the DRDO just design their own Armada? Are they incompetent?

They practically are...




With several different uses for it's chassis.


This is Arjun's saga ALL OVER AGAIN!!

Army doesnt want to support or even look at DRDO'S FMBT program, just like the Arjun originally, so they made this FRCV RFI. FMBT and this FRCV will clash if the MoD just lets it.

If the navy can support even DRDO's crap unto their designed ships, why cant the army?

This country produces SSBNs with it's own SLBMs shooting out of it, why cant it armor? There's no excuse.
 
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pmaitra

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@Mad Indian

I think if they give this US FCS design and if accepted , DRDO will mint millions of $ as every thing in it will have to imported ... the more the merrier !

Foreign mal and millions of dollars of commission ! DODOs must understand their own language and that they can be paid back in the same coin... their inferior propaganda can be mounted on them so easily... poor chaps. The day every soldier of the forces feels slighted of their false accusations.. and stupid rants - that will their end !!

In my humble observation the fight in Indian Defence Industry is for who imports ? MoD, DRDO or DPSU ? Forces are no where in between !! MoD have wisely let the DODOs loose on IA... that is what MoD is all about !
You don't speak for every soldier.

We have plenty of uniformed BSF jawans, and millions of illegal Bangladeshis in India.

One has to wonder why you must mention millions of dollars in commission. I hope this is not a psychological projection, or is it?

P.S.: Yeah, I know BSF is under MHA.
 
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bose

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@Khagesh @ersakthivel @bose


Instead of bitching about the RFI on how it is rigged to suit Armada, why dont the DRDO just design their own Armada? Are they incompetent?
DRDO can design a tank very well, who is going to pay for the design work ? IA ? and the design have to be traced to a requirement ? where is the requirements ?

DRDO must not repeat the TankEx saga, where they payed the money from their own and later it was rejected by IA...

DRDO is not incompetent rather they have to pick up the skill of good program management ... changing requirement mid way is not going to help rather itn will delay the delivery...
 

pmaitra

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DRDO can design a tank very well, who is going to pay for the design work ? IA ? and the design have to be traced to a requirement ? where is the requirements ?

DRDO must not repeat the TankEx saga, where they payed the money from their own and later it was rejected by IA...

DRDO is not incompetent rather they have to pick up the skill of good program management ... changing requirement mid way is not going to help rather itn will delay the delivery...
Regarding changing requirement, DRDO must adopt the strategy of issuing project numbers. They made a mistake by christening the Arjun at a very early stage.

They should simply call it Project FRCV #1. The moment the fickle DGFM changes his mind, they should simply scrap Project FRCV #1, and start a new Project FRCV #2.

That way we will be able to deny the opportunity to some people to blatantly lie that DRDO took 30 years to make a tank.

Once the tank is accepted for induction, only then should it be christened, and given a name.
 

Bhadra

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They practically are...




With several different uses for it's chassis.


This is Arjun's saga ALL OVER AGAIN!!

Army doesnt want to support or even look at DRDO'S FMBT program, just like the Arjun originally, so they made this FRCV RFI. FMBT and this FRCV will clash if the MoD just lets it.

If the navy can support even DRDO's crap unto their designed ships, why cant the army?

This country produces SSBNs with it's own SLBMs shooting out of it, why cant it armor? There's no excuse.

What is that tank ?
Who asked that tank to be designed and made ?
Who issued the RFI ? RFP for it ?

Is not that just propaganda - to perpetuate Arjun chasis, a platform that can never be a base for class 50 ton tank leave aside 40 - 45 ton desired for FMBT ?
 

Bhadra

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A Tank Needed to Overrun This and not Bog Down There












 

Khagesh

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@Bhadra, I wish you were an insider to the DGMF's directorate office. Because then at least the DGMF would have stopped acting like a Manmohan Singh and started replying to questions being raised.

What does he think. This is some game. What prompted him to ask for designs when he has designed zilch, till date? What prompted him to ask for the design on his own software? What parameters is he going to follow for the final selection? Is the DGMF software also going to do the final markings? Have these weightages been loaded onto the DGMF software? Where did the DGMF source this software from? How much experience does the DGMF and his staff have on this DGMF software?

Why is the paid media not raising this as an issue? Well the paid media may not but some print journalists have and so is the Social Media. Why is the DGMF acting like Manmohan Singh? Kaan me teil dal ke so gaya kya?


The Tank Ex is the latest Indian prototype main battle tank (MBT). This MBT uses the chassis of the T-72M1 (Ajeya) and turret and weapon system of the Arjun. It was developed in 2002 as a private venture and was intended to provide a solution for upgrading the Indian Army's ageing T-72M1 fleet. It was rejected by the Indian Army after two prototypes and six months of trials.
A bunch of people who could not decide on Arjun for 20 years and then for further 5 yeas after their pet import was beaten to pulp in Many-On-Many match-up took only 6 months to decide about Tank-EX.

Which decision was a lie? The Tank-EX one or the Arjun MBT one? Which one would the DGMF like to defend? Ya kaan me teil dal ke sona pasand kareinge?


On July 5, 2008, Gen. Dalip Bhardwaj, the Indian Army's Director General of Mechanized forces (DGMF), declared that the army had rejected Tank Ex. This was part of an announcement that there would be no further orders forArjun tanks, and that the military would be inviting participants from various countries to discuss future tank developments.
:pound:
See the DGMF office has since long been the formalized/visible part of Chandigarh Gang that ex RAW agent RSN Singh and Retd. Gen. V. K. Singh, talk about.

Office of DGMF my foot - Shamba/Tony is more like it.
 

indiatester

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http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/indian-army-chasing-pipe-dreams-forever/article7350786.ece


Overambitious norms in Qualitative Requirements are largely responsible for the alarming equipment shortage that the forces face today.
The Indian Army recently dispatched a global Request for Information (RfI) for a multi-purpose Future Ready Combat Vehicle (FRCV), which has generated much mirth in military-industrial circles, for its sheer ridiculousness and operational folly.

The Army’s request is for an FRCV that will not only serve as a ‘medium’-sized main battle tank to replace the Army’s ageing fleet of licence-built Russian T-72s but also as a ‘light-tracked and wheeled tank’, built on the same platform. In layman terms, this is like asking for a Humvee and a Maruti 800 on the same platform. Hopefully, the document will be either withdrawn or amended before its July 31 deadline.

Surely, the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces at Army Headquarters, responsible for issuing the request, realises the irony and irrationality of drawing up such absurd general staff qualitative requirements (GSQRs), which are technologically impossible for any manufacturer to fulfil.

What is all the more surprising is that such QRs are formulated after extensive discussion, not only by the division concerned — in this case, the Mechanised Forces — but finally approved by the Army’s Deputy Chief (Planning & Systems), who is responsible for acquisitions. His office, as are those involved in formulating the requests and the subsequent proposals, or tenders, is purportedly staffed by competent scientific and technical advisers.

Senior Army officers concede that such over-ambitious and flawed requests for information, leading to equally over-stretched, faulty and diluted tenders, are largely responsible for the alarming equipment shortage that the forces face today. The shortfall includes small arms, howitzers, assorted helicopters, armour with night-fighting capacity, air defence capability and varied ordnance, among other things. Although Army Headquarters blames the hidebound and ill-informed Ministry of Defence (MoD) bureaucrats for this, it also has largely itself to blame for the glaring deficiencies.

‘Blinkered views’
“The whole process is carried out with limited knowledge and blinkered views,” said former Maj. Gen. Mrinal Suman, the Army’s leading authority on acquisitions and offsets. Poorly conceived, formulated and drafted QRs create confusion and delays, resulting in the entire process being aborted much later, he said. The Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence concurs.

In its report tabled in Parliament on April 30, 2012, the Committee declared that as many as 41 of the Army’s proposals for diverse equipment in recent years were withdrawn or terminated. The reasons included faulty or over-ambitious qualitative requirements. The Committee report unambiguously pinned responsibility on the Army. The MoD and attendant financial advisers had no role in framing weapon QRs. Service Headquarters consult with the largely uniformed Directorate General Quality Assurance (DGQA), sometimes with inputs from the Defence Research and Development Organisation.

The typical process is this: all available literature on the equipment is gathered and its multiple characteristics collated. The idea is to include as many features as possible to demonstrate how exhaustively the task has been performed. Thereafter, as the draft travels up the chain of command, it gathers additional parameters, as each officer feels compelled to suggest more improvements. “The final QR takes the shape of a well-compiled wish list of utopian dimensions, which simply do not exist,” stated Gen. Suman.

For instance, in 2004, the Army issued a tender for 168 light utility helicopters to replace the obsolete fleet of Cheetahs and Chetaks inducted into service in the mid-60s. The proposal required the chopper to hover uninterruptedly for 30 minutes, a capability no helicopter in the world possessed at the time. The maximum hover time then available, with a U.S. helicopter, was seven minutes. The Army was forced to withdraw the tender soon after.

Similarly, a tender to upgrade FH-77B 155mm/39 calibre howitzers, acquired in the 1980s, had to be scrapped twice, first in 2006 and again in 2009, as the QRs drawn up by the Artillery Directorate were unworkable. A BAE Systems official associated with the upgrade at the time said that the requirements were ‘unrealistic’ for these old guns, expecting more capability than even new howitzers.

In 2013, the request sent to at least five overseas vendors to replace the Army’s obsolete Bofors 40mm L-70 and Soviet ZU-23mm 2B air defence guns had to be scrapped. All five vendors declared the requirements to be unreasonable, as they demanded a firing rate of 500 rounds per minute, a capability no gun in the world possessed.

The same has applied to tenders for tank fire control systems, long range observation systems and for different ammunition types, all terminated over the years on grounds of overreach and unrealism. It would appear that the Indian Army’s search for matchless, and globally unavailable, equipment and capabilities triumphs over and over again.

(Rahul Bedi is a defence analyst.)
 

Bhadra

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Both sides of the western border are full with this type of wide water-works and canals ... Arjun here ?
 

jackprince

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Both sides of the western border are full with this type of wide water-works and canals ... Arjun here ?
Just curious. Has T90 proven that they can ford these terrain unassusted too?
 

Mad Indian

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Army doesnt want to support or even look at DRDO'S FMBT program, just like the Arjun originally, so they made this FRCV RFI. FMBT and this FRCV will clash if the MoD just lets it.
Except this has nothing to do with fmbt. This is a separate program.

Sorry this is a weak excuse considering army does use DRDO when it is sufficient.

And you accept drdo is incompetent and still want army to accept its products? And who is being pseudo nationalists here again?
 

Mad Indian

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I think Indians are suffering from colonial hangover with an undue love for swadeshi products . seriously guys, its stupid to reject a project just for the term "import ". It's even more stupid to announce incompetence at RFI and blame army for your incompetence.
 

Mad Indian

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Just curious. Has T90 proven that they can ford these terrain unassusted too?
You do know that Indian logistics chain is tailored for t72/t90 right? This was the reason given for not inducting Arjun in high numbers since t90s were already inducted to the tune of 300+ when Arjun was even at par with t 90. This is actually a very valid argument and no one has countered it here since none of the DRDO fanboys are actually knowledgeable on full logistics support and network of the armed forces.

And you think DRDO is corruption free? You do know that even Arjun has lot of imported components right? This is not a valid argument since corruption is the same in DRDO and Army acquisition.

The only way you guys can show that army is biased if you can prove that army rejected a superior product made by DRDO in place of an inferior one made in Russia. So until you have proof of that stop this useless witchhunting of the armed forces
 

Mad Indian

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Many people claim that Arjun was a superior to T90 and still got rejected. So fiing what? Army would have reject m1Abrams too if they were offered after 400 t90s were already in service and more in orders.
 

jackprince

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You do know that Indian logistics chain is tailored for t72/t90 right? This was the reason given for not inducting Arjun in high numbers since t90s were already inducted to the tune of 300+ when Arjun was even at par with t 90. This is actually a very valid argument and no one has countered it here since none of the DRDO fanboys are actually knowledgeable on full logistics support and network of the armed forces.

And you think DRDO is corruption free? You do know that even Arjun has lot of imported components right? This is not a valid argument since corruption is the same in DRDO and Army acquisition.

The only way you guys can show that army is biased if you can prove that army rejected a superior product made by DRDO in place of an inferior one made in Russia. So until you have proof of that stop this useless witchhunting of the armed forces
The proof has been provided countless time in Arjun thread. You can go through them again, but I know that you know.

Further, some people have questioned validity of induction of medium weight MBTs like T-90 given their thinner armour which is in danger from IEDs and RPGs in an urban battlefield, which went unanswered by pro-T90 camp. The pro-T90 camp argues vehemently argues on only point of Arjun being overweight, despite having given counters. However they shy away from answering the simple question why T90 was inducted w/o trial which resulted in one after anotheperformancevu issue, including malfuctioning under ectreme heat of desert.

I can say that logistics chain could be matched yo fit Arjun. But if a tank which is supposed to punishment from enemy fire, can brohht down easily by IEDs, the army would ve better operate without a tank.

Arjun is not without its flaw. None of the systems that have come in service around the world has ever come without flaw. It is common sense that after they come under service, then more updates come and flaws are rectified. But IA is thevfirst army in the world which will kill the domestic product for anything imported.

About this much hyped GSQR for FRCV, who can gurantee that the design that would be approved would not show some fundamental flaw which would make it unworkable once the full model is built aftr wasting millions? Should the brass at DGMF take the responsibilty and be ready to face disciplinary proceedings if it bears no fruit, as it would delay the procurement process and weaken the defence of the nation?
 
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