Indian Army wants futuristic vehicle for its Armoured corps

[Bhadra]

Can't Make Anything : Consider these !

Merkava! Mearkava ? Merkava! thirty charcaters for nothing..​

 

[Mad Indian]

The proof has been provided countless time in Arjun thread. You can go through them again, but I know that you know.

But there was enough arguments against Arjun which no one countered. Logistic chain is the biggest of them. Even t 90 supporters accepted that Arjun 1v1 will have few advantage over t90 in some areas which should be fixed in t90 to make it as good as arjun . but the flaws of arjun- the heavy weight and the associated a logistic chains is something which can't be corrected and hence army sticks with t 90.

Has anyone here enough knowledge to prove that Arjun logistic chain is as good as it is for t90s ? I doubt they can as it is something only army can talk about and they are forbidden from doing so in the public. Basically you guys are fighting a guys whose arms are tied. Not fair or correct.

 

[Mad Indian]

I can say that logistics chain could be matched yo fit Arjun. But if a tank which is supposed to punishment from enemy fire, can brohht down easily by IEDs, the army would ve better operate without a tank.

Now you are giving tactical advice to armed forces.

 

[Bhadra]

Can't Make Anything : Consider these !

Merkava means Chariot : the platform used by Arjuna to wage war with a divine charioteer .. more than 30 characters ...​

 

[Mad Indian]

Further, some people have questioned validity of induction of medium weight MBTs like T-90 given their thinner armour which is in danger from IEDs and RPGs in an urban battlefield, which went unanswered by pro-T90 camp. The pro-T90 camp argues vehemently argues on only point of Arjun being overweight, despite having given counters. However they shy away from answering the simple question why T90 was inducted w/o trial which resulted in one after anotheperformancevu issue, including malfuctioning under ectreme heat of desert.

Actually no. T90 does indeed have good protection ,as good as arjun..smaller tank does not equal a bad protection. @karn gave an example for that already

And those malfunction problems were fixed afaik or at least that's what army claims . and this is among the problem which can be easily fixed- adding ac to a tank - easy. Changing logistic chain for a tank- difficult. And do you know that Americans use gas turbine for tanks for exactly the same reasons- logistics, Despite gas turbines being very costly?

 

[Mad Indian]

Arjun is not without its flaw. None of the systems that have come in service around the world has ever come without flaw. It is common sense that after they come under service, then more updates come and flaws are rectified. But IA is thevfirst army in the world which will kill the domestic product for anything imported.

Again don't confuse swadesi with patriotism. No one said Arjun was bad- it was late. We were lucky we dint have to go to war with Pakis till 2008 when Arjun was ready. Should we have twiddled our thumbs if we had no Arjun in 2003 to fight pakis and war broke out?

 

[Mad Indian]

About this much hyped GSQR for FRCV, who can gurantee that the design that would be approved would not show some fundamental flaw which would make it unworkable once the full model is built aftr wasting millions? Should the brass at DGMF take the responsibilty and be ready to face disciplinary proceedings if it bears no fruit, as it would delay the procurement process and weaken the defence of the nation?

This is just complete nonsense. You don't have to beat star wars howertanks. You just need to beat Armada tanks of Russia to win this contract. So are you accepting DRDO is incompetent that it can't match Armada ? Then it has no business in defense sector and it should just go f itself.

 

[Mad Indian]

Simple. Lack of fund. Lack of manpower. To start working on new tank design DRDO NEEDS green signal from MoD.

And so DRDO fanboys can stop blaming about army for this.

And funny enough even DRDO never claimed any of this crap- only its fanboys who are making excuses

 

[Bhadra]

Ten Names of Arjuna are - Arjun, Phaalgun, Jishnu, Keeriti, Shwetvaahan, Vibhatsu, Vijaya, Paarth, Savyashachee and Dhananjaya. DODOs can use any name one after another to name their Tanks - all would be Arjuna. This for the love of Arjuna which DODOs have besmirched.

 

[ersakthivel]

@Khagesh @ersakthivel @bose


Instead of bitching about the RFI on how it is rigged to suit Armada, why dont the DRDO just design their own Armada? Are they incompetent?

The answer is very simple,"Ask the DGMF to give the same armata specs with 3 men crew, auto loader, remote turret, 55 to 60 ton weight , with no room for confusion".

because DRDO is not a corporate entity that is tasked with crystal gazing into future and build a product for international market. It is a govt R&D lab that builds products as per the exact demands of the armed forces.

You go to a Maruthi showroom and ask the salesman's help to select a car for your family,

he asks, "Sir what is your budget?"

he asks ,"Sir how many people it needs to carry?"
you answer, "As many guys as required for the occasion with enough room for all guys",

He asks ,"Sir do you want a diesel or petrol?"

You answer ,"what ever the future needs of my family"

He asks,"Sir do you want an off-road vehicle , sedan SUV or hatchback? "

You answer,"Please survey all the places around my home and all the places in future I will have to travel and give a single vehicle that fits the needs"

He asks,"Sir what about the pick up, mileage, and ride quality?"

You say ,"best in class in all the above".

Now after this long conversation, if there are other customers in the room, Do you still expect the salesman to attend you? Definitely not, if he has any accountability towards his salary.

he definitely knows he is being ragged, and he perfectly knows that the buyer, after already deciding which car to buy in which showroom, is just playing joke on him

Read this to know where the bitching and itching starts,

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/indian-army-chasing-pipe-dreams-forever/article7350786.ece
"
Overambitious norms in Qualitative Requirements are largely responsible for the alarming equipment shortage that the forces face today.
The Indian Army recently dispatched a global Request for Information (RfI) for a multi-purpose Future Ready Combat Vehicle (FRCV), which has generated much mirth in military-industrial circles, for its sheer ridiculousness and operational folly.

The Army’s request is for an FRCV that will not only serve as a ‘medium’-sized main battle tank to replace the Army’s ageing fleet of licence-built Russian T-72s but also as a ‘light-tracked and wheeled tank’, built on the same platform. In layman terms, this is like asking for a Humvee and a Maruti 800 on the same platform. Hopefully, the document will be either withdrawn or amended before its July 31 deadline.

Surely, the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces at Army Headquarters, responsible for issuing the request, realises the irony and irrationality of drawing up such absurd general staff qualitative requirements (GSQRs), which are technologically impossible for any manufacturer to fulfil.

What is all the more surprising is that such QRs are formulated after extensive discussion, not only by the division concerned — in this case, the Mechanised Forces — but finally approved by the Army’s Deputy Chief (Planning & Systems), who is responsible for acquisitions. His office, as are those involved in formulating the requests and the subsequent proposals, or tenders, is purportedly staffed by competent scientific and technical advisers.

Senior Army officers concede that such over-ambitious and flawed requests for information, leading to equally over-stretched, faulty and diluted tenders, are largely responsible for the alarming equipment shortage that the forces face today. The shortfall includes small arms, howitzers, assorted helicopters, armour with night-fighting capacity, air defence capability and varied ordnance, among other things. Although Army Headquarters blames the hidebound and ill-informed Ministry of Defence (MoD) bureaucrats for this, it also has largely itself to blame for the glaring deficiencies.

‘Blinkered views’
“The whole process is carried out with limited knowledge and blinkered views,” said former Maj. Gen. Mrinal Suman, the Army’s leading authority on acquisitions and offsets. Poorly conceived, formulated and drafted QRs create confusion and delays, resulting in the entire process being aborted much later, he said. The Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence concurs.

In its report tabled in Parliament on April 30, 2012, the Committee declared that as many as 41 of the Army’s proposals for diverse equipment in recent years were withdrawn or terminated. The reasons included faulty or over-ambitious qualitative requirements. The Committee report unambiguously pinned responsibility on the Army. The MoD and attendant financial advisers had no role in framing weapon QRs. Service Headquarters consult with the largely uniformed Directorate General Quality Assurance (DGQA), sometimes with inputs from the Defence Research and Development Organisation.

The typical process is this: all available literature on the equipment is gathered and its multiple characteristics collated. The idea is to include as many features as possible to demonstrate how exhaustively the task has been performed. Thereafter, as the draft travels up the chain of command, it gathers additional parameters, as each officer feels compelled to suggest more improvements. “The final QR takes the shape of a well-compiled wish list of utopian dimensions, which simply do not exist,” stated Gen. Suman.

For instance, in 2004, the Army issued a tender for 168 light utility helicopters to replace the obsolete fleet of Cheetahs and Chetaks inducted into service in the mid-60s. The proposal required the chopper to hover uninterruptedly for 30 minutes, a capability no helicopter in the world possessed at the time. The maximum hover time then available, with a U.S. helicopter, was seven minutes. The Army was forced to withdraw the tender soon after.

Similarly, a tender to upgrade FH-77B 155mm/39 calibre howitzers, acquired in the 1980s, had to be scrapped twice, first in 2006 and again in 2009, as the QRs drawn up by the Artillery Directorate were unworkable. A BAE Systems official associated with the upgrade at the time said that the requirements were ‘unrealistic’ for these old guns, expecting more capability than even new howitzers.

In 2013, the request sent to at least five overseas vendors to replace the Army’s obsolete Bofors 40mm L-70 and Soviet ZU-23mm 2B air defence guns had to be scrapped. All five vendors declared the requirements to be unreasonable, as they demanded a firing rate of 500 rounds per minute, a capability no gun in the world possessed.

The same has applied to tenders for tank fire control systems, long range observation systems and for different ammunition types, all terminated over the years on grounds of overreach and unrealism. It would appear that the Indian Army’s search for matchless, and globally unavailable, equipment and capabilities triumphs over and over again.
"

 

[Mad Indian]

The answer is very simple,"Ask the DGMF to give the same armata specs with 3 men crew, auto loader, remote turret, 55 to 60 ton weight , with no room for confusion".

because DRDO is not a corporate entity that is tasked with crystal gazing into future and build a product for international market. It is a govt R&D lab that builds products as per the exact demands of the armed forces.

You go to a Maruthi showroom and ask the salesman's help to select a car for your family,

he asks, "Sir what is your budget?"

he asks ,"Sir how many people it needs to carry?"
you answer, "As many guys as required for the occasion with enough room for all guys",

He asks ,"Sir do you want a diesel or petrol?"

You answer ,"what ever the future needs of my family"

He asks,"Sir do you want an off-road vehicle , sedan SUV or hatchback? "

You answer,"Please survey all the places around my home and all the places in future I will have to travel and give a single vehicle that fits the needs"

He asks,"Sir what about the pick up, mileage, and ride quality?"

You say ,"best in class in all the above".

Now after this long conversation, if there are other customers in the room, Do you still expect the salesman to attend you? Definitely not, if he has any accountability towards his salary.

he definitely knows he is being ragged, and he perfectly knows that the buyer, after already deciding which car to buy in which showroom, is just playing joke on him

Read this to know where the bitching and itching starts,

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/indian-army-chasing-pipe-dreams-forever/article7350786.ece
"
Overambitious norms in Qualitative Requirements are largely responsible for the alarming equipment shortage that the forces face today.
The Indian Army recently dispatched a global Request for Information (RfI) for a multi-purpose Future Ready Combat Vehicle (FRCV), which has generated much mirth in military-industrial circles, for its sheer ridiculousness and operational folly.

The Army’s request is for an FRCV that will not only serve as a ‘medium’-sized main battle tank to replace the Army’s ageing fleet of licence-built Russian T-72s but also as a ‘light-tracked and wheeled tank’, built on the same platform. In layman terms, this is like asking for a Humvee and a Maruti 800 on the same platform. Hopefully, the document will be either withdrawn or amended before its July 31 deadline.

Surely, the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces at Army Headquarters, responsible for issuing the request, realises the irony and irrationality of drawing up such absurd general staff qualitative requirements (GSQRs), which are technologically impossible for any manufacturer to fulfil.

What is all the more surprising is that such QRs are formulated after extensive discussion, not only by the division concerned — in this case, the Mechanised Forces — but finally approved by the Army’s Deputy Chief (Planning & Systems), who is responsible for acquisitions. His office, as are those involved in formulating the requests and the subsequent proposals, or tenders, is purportedly staffed by competent scientific and technical advisers.

Senior Army officers concede that such over-ambitious and flawed requests for information, leading to equally over-stretched, faulty and diluted tenders, are largely responsible for the alarming equipment shortage that the forces face today. The shortfall includes small arms, howitzers, assorted helicopters, armour with night-fighting capacity, air defence capability and varied ordnance, among other things. Although Army Headquarters blames the hidebound and ill-informed Ministry of Defence (MoD) bureaucrats for this, it also has largely itself to blame for the glaring deficiencies.

‘Blinkered views’
“The whole process is carried out with limited knowledge and blinkered views,” said former Maj. Gen. Mrinal Suman, the Army’s leading authority on acquisitions and offsets. Poorly conceived, formulated and drafted QRs create confusion and delays, resulting in the entire process being aborted much later, he said. The Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence concurs.

In its report tabled in Parliament on April 30, 2012, the Committee declared that as many as 41 of the Army’s proposals for diverse equipment in recent years were withdrawn or terminated. The reasons included faulty or over-ambitious qualitative requirements. The Committee report unambiguously pinned responsibility on the Army. The MoD and attendant financial advisers had no role in framing weapon QRs. Service Headquarters consult with the largely uniformed Directorate General Quality Assurance (DGQA), sometimes with inputs from the Defence Research and Development Organisation.

The typical process is this: all available literature on the equipment is gathered and its multiple characteristics collated. The idea is to include as many features as possible to demonstrate how exhaustively the task has been performed. Thereafter, as the draft travels up the chain of command, it gathers additional parameters, as each officer feels compelled to suggest more improvements. “The final QR takes the shape of a well-compiled wish list of utopian dimensions, which simply do not exist,” stated Gen. Suman.

For instance, in 2004, the Army issued a tender for 168 light utility helicopters to replace the obsolete fleet of Cheetahs and Chetaks inducted into service in the mid-60s. The proposal required the chopper to hover uninterruptedly for 30 minutes, a capability no helicopter in the world possessed at the time. The maximum hover time then available, with a U.S. helicopter, was seven minutes. The Army was forced to withdraw the tender soon after.

Similarly, a tender to upgrade FH-77B 155mm/39 calibre howitzers, acquired in the 1980s, had to be scrapped twice, first in 2006 and again in 2009, as the QRs drawn up by the Artillery Directorate were unworkable. A BAE Systems official associated with the upgrade at the time said that the requirements were ‘unrealistic’ for these old guns, expecting more capability than even new howitzers.

In 2013, the request sent to at least five overseas vendors to replace the Army’s obsolete Bofors 40mm L-70 and Soviet ZU-23mm 2B air defence guns had to be scrapped. All five vendors declared the requirements to be unreasonable, as they demanded a firing rate of 500 rounds per minute, a capability no gun in the world possessed.

The same has applied to tenders for tank fire control systems, long range observation systems and for different ammunition types, all terminated over the years on grounds of overreach and unrealism. It would appear that the Indian Army’s search for matchless, and globally unavailable, equipment and capabilities triumphs over and over again.
"

Dude, stop quoting half baked retards half baked opinions to prove a point. These half baked retards are not the ones who are going to use the equipment tomorrow and have no right to bitch or whine about what army wants.

And you have not answered d
the question. You fanboys are quite confident that army is looking for Armada. Go get the specs of Armada and build a Armada equivalent yourself . nothing stopped the DRDO from doing that.It just reeks of incompetence if DRDO can't even provide a tank equivalent to armada.

 

[ersakthivel]

And so DRDO fanboys can stop blaming about army for this.

And funny enough even DRDO never claimed any of this crap- only its fanboys who are making excuses

You neither know what is a fan or what is a boy.

just read the passage below to know what kind of senile fools who are playing this ,"chase my ass GSQR game with out the faintest of idea of what a real world fighting platform is!!!"

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/indian-army-chasing-pipe-dreams-forever/article7350786.ece

Overambitious norms in Qualitative Requirements are largely responsible for the alarming equipment shortage that the forces face today.
The Indian Army recently dispatched a global Request for Information (RfI) for a multi-purpose Future Ready Combat Vehicle (FRCV), which has generated much mirth in military-industrial circles, for its sheer ridiculousness and operational folly.

The Army’s request is for an FRCV that will not only serve as a ‘medium’-sized main battle tank to replace the Army’s ageing fleet of licence-built Russian T-72s but also as a ‘light-tracked and wheeled tank’, built on the same platform. In layman terms, this is like asking for a Humvee and a Maruti 800 on the same platform. Hopefully, the document will be either withdrawn or amended before its July 31 deadline.

Surely, the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces at Army Headquarters, responsible for issuing the request, realises the irony and irrationality of drawing up such absurd general staff qualitative requirements (GSQRs), which are technologically impossible for any manufacturer to fulfil.

What is all the more surprising is that such QRs are formulated after extensive discussion, not only by the division concerned — in this case, the Mechanised Forces — but finally approved by the Army’s Deputy Chief (Planning & Systems), who is responsible for acquisitions. His office, as are those involved in formulating the requests and the subsequent proposals, or tenders, is purportedly staffed by competent scientific and technical advisers.

Senior Army officers concede that such over-ambitious and flawed requests for information, leading to equally over-stretched, faulty and diluted tenders, are largely responsible for the alarming equipment shortage that the forces face today. The shortfall includes small arms, howitzers, assorted helicopters, armour with night-fighting capacity, air defence capability and varied ordnance, among other things. Although Army Headquarters blames the hidebound and ill-informed Ministry of Defence (MoD) bureaucrats for this, it also has largely itself to blame for the glaring deficiencies.

‘Blinkered views’
“The whole process is carried out with limited knowledge and blinkered views,” said former Maj. Gen. Mrinal Suman, the Army’s leading authority on acquisitions and offsets. Poorly conceived, formulated and drafted QRs create confusion and delays, resulting in the entire process being aborted much later, he said. The Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence concurs.

In its report tabled in Parliament on April 30, 2012, the Committee declared that as many as 41 of the Army’s proposals for diverse equipment in recent years were withdrawn or terminated. The reasons included faulty or over-ambitious qualitative requirements. The Committee report unambiguously pinned responsibility on the Army. The MoD and attendant financial advisers had no role in framing weapon QRs. Service Headquarters consult with the largely uniformed Directorate General Quality Assurance (DGQA), sometimes with inputs from the Defence Research and Development Organisation.

The typical process is this: all available literature on the equipment is gathered and its multiple characteristics collated. The idea is to include as many features as possible to demonstrate how exhaustively the task has been performed. Thereafter, as the draft travels up the chain of command, it gathers additional parameters, as each officer feels compelled to suggest more improvements. “The final QR takes the shape of a well-compiled wish list of utopian dimensions, which simply do not exist,” stated Gen. Suman.

For instance, in 2004, the Army issued a tender for 168 light utility helicopters to replace the obsolete fleet of Cheetahs and Chetaks inducted into service in the mid-60s. The proposal required the chopper to hover uninterruptedly for 30 minutes, a capability no helicopter in the world possessed at the time. The maximum hover time then available, with a U.S. helicopter, was seven minutes. The Army was forced to withdraw the tender soon after.

Similarly, a tender to upgrade FH-77B 155mm/39 calibre howitzers, acquired in the 1980s, had to be scrapped twice, first in 2006 and again in 2009, as the QRs drawn up by the Artillery Directorate were unworkable. A BAE Systems official associated with the upgrade at the time said that the requirements were ‘unrealistic’ for these old guns, expecting more capability than even new howitzers.

In 2013, the request sent to at least five overseas vendors to replace the Army’s obsolete Bofors 40mm L-70 and Soviet ZU-23mm 2B air defence guns had to be scrapped. All five vendors declared the requirements to be unreasonable, as they demanded a firing rate of 500 rounds per minute, a capability no gun in the world possessed.

The same has applied to tenders for tank fire control systems, long range observation systems and for different ammunition types, all terminated over the years on grounds of overreach and unrealism. It would appear that the Indian Army’s search for matchless, and globally unavailable, equipment and capabilities triumphs over and over again.

COntrast this monumental stupidity of IA and IAF ,with the discipline shown by navy in ensuring each cadet must be a cadet engineer while in service, and just go and get hold of the detailed ship design ideas sent to shipyards , where one indigenous war ship after the other , including N subs , regularly sets sail.

Does the navy supplies a barrels full of whiskey , and adorn its cadets with a bunch or prostitutes , and ask them to aspire for mythical "Black pearl' to unlock the Kim Davy jones Locker? in the same way DGMF is expecting its future tank crews to do?

No. It instills a discipline and goes for realistic planning with in its limited budget and has now made the county proud with Arihant induction.

Just look at the IA and IAf bitching about everything from INSAS, Tejas to Basic trainer all the time and stalling local manufacture of any worthwhile combat platform.

 

[ersakthivel]

Dude, stop quoting half baked retards half baked opinions to prove a point. These half baked retards are not the ones who are going to use the equipment tomorrow and have no right to bitch or whine about what army wants.

And you have not answered d
the question. You fanboys are quite confident that army is looking for Armada. Go get the specs of Armada and build a Armada equivalent yourself . nothing stopped the DRDO from doing that.It just reeks of incompetence if DRDO can't even provide a tank equivalent to armada.

Well, I din't realize that I was speaking to a full backed retard!!!

If it still doesn't get through to you, then let me explain,

DRDO is a govt lab that gets its budget sanctioned for building stuff according to the exact specs given by GSQR or ASR. It is not an MNC arms maker that uses slush money to ring secret swiss bank accounts to palm off whatever they produce , by getting the top defence guys to change their specs in favor, like it happened in MMRCA, bofors, T-90 acquisition, Agusta westland, the fully faulty Nav attack system bearing jaguar purchase, the cancelled LUH tender , so on and so forth.

The IA is slyly aiming to buy Armata after giving such a useless RFI which will drag on forever, Then the same way IAF is advancing its "dwindling sq strength "( after using every trick in the book to delay tejas, ) IA too will plumb for direct import like IAF tied with rafale.

if the IA wants armata , then it is its job to give
1.exact weight of armata,
2.auto loader three men crew
3.remote turret ,
4. 55 to 60 ton specs,
5. Armata's ground pressure per square inch, ets, etc,
6. Its power to weight ratio,
7. its gradiant climbing specs etc, etc,
8. its gun cal dia, muzzle velocity etc, etc

Thats for what guys in DMGF are there for,

Why are they beating around the bush with
1. all vague terms like,
1.medium weight,
2.non overlapping crew,
3, not a single word on the auto loader,
5, no caliber or dia for its main gun,

nonsense called FRCV?

Only reason is to reject anything advanced by CVRDE citing this or that useless reason.

 

[Bhadra]

Just curious. Has T90 proven that they can ford these terrain unassusted too?

Crossing river - T-90 - crossing river... I do not know why 30 Characters ??

 

[ersakthivel]

Crossing river - T-90 - crossing river... I do not know why 30 Characters ??

Arjun too has river fording capacity as asked by DGMF.
It can cross river, but it kills its crews, conks its electronics in indian desert making it useless.

 

[ersakthivel]

@Mad Indian

I think if they give this US FCS design and if accepted , DRDO will mint millions of $ as every thing in it will have to imported ... the more the merrier !

Foreign mal and millions of dollars of commission ! DODOs must understand their own language and that they can be paid back in the same coin... their inferior propaganda can be mounted on them so easily... poor chaps. The day every soldier of the forces feels slighted of their false accusations.. and stupid rants - that will their end !!

In my humble observation the fight in Indian Defence Industry is for who imports ? MoD, DRDO or DPSU ? Forces are no where in between !! MoD have wisely let the DODOs loose on IA... that is what MoD is all about !

if at all orders for 500 Arjuns were given a lot of stuff will be developed here including the imported engines, tacks and everything else.Even then they are not going to be produced by DRDO, HAL produces tejas, OFBS produce INSAS, field guns!!!

So how can DRDO which is not even remotely connected with producing and billing these items get bribes?

I just can not imagine the tons of lies you are bundling out here!!!!

Dont you even know the basic fact that it is MOD, OFB combo that builds and bills the items to Indian defence forces.

DRDO is just a designing agency that builds a few prototypes at best. So please enlighten us all how will DRDO guy gets commission fom things produced in OFB and given to Army!!!!

But the case of crooked elements in indian defence forces facilitating bribes is long and endless, Dont you know Agusta westland, Bofors, the faulty Nav attack system bearing jaguar purchase, sea king helos , the scrapped LUh etc etc?

 

[ersakthivel]

Both sides of the western border are full with this type of wide water-works and canals ... Arjun here ?

Arjun can do medium fording for twenty minutes without any preparation as demanded by DGMF. You know that or not?

 

[ersakthivel]

Again don't confuse swadesi with patriotism. No one said Arjun was bad- it was late. We were lucky we dint have to go to war with Pakis till 2008 when Arjun was ready. Should we have twiddled our thumbs if we had no Arjun in 2003 to fight pakis and war broke out?

It was late because its GSQR was changed four times, during design phase, DO you know that or not?
Even after it achieved everything it was stopped in tacks with 83 new spec revisions now going into arjun mk2, while IA merrily imported desert unworthy T-90 which has no safe ammo storage feature in thousands!!!!

 

[Bhadra]

Well, I din't realize that I was speaking to a full backed retard!!!

If it still doesn't get through to you, then let me explain,

sORRY @ersakhtivel ... very poor arguments not expected from you.

DRDO is a govt lab that gets its budget sanctioned for building stuff according to the exact specs given by GSQR or ASR.

I thought that is what DRDO is not ! It is supposed to be leading "scientific", a visionary organisation which has certain labs with them for experiments and development. The role and mission of DRDO needs to be read and reread by you again and again.

It is not an MNC arms maker that uses slush money to ring secret swiss bank accounts to palm off whatever they produce , by getting the top defence guys to change their specs in favor, like it happened in MMRCA, bofors, T-90 acquisition, Agusta westland, the fully faulty Nav attack system bearing jaguar purchase, the cancelled LUH tender , so on and so forth.

In terms of functional ethos, culture and bending all rules , DRDO is worst of them all. MNC at least has to compete and produce something worthwhile to remain in business. But DRDO has nothing of that sort to do. They simply have to grab all projects, work on nothing, claim monopoly on all defence and defence related demands and open a line of funding and then enjoy and enjoy.. you are the worst kinds of parasites who just for nothing claim all kinds of exclusivity and monopoly even on how a soldier would shit !!

The IA is slyly aiming to buy Armata after giving such a useless RFI which will drag on forever, Then the same way IAF is advancing its "dwindling sq strength "( after using every trick in the book to delay tejas, ) IA too will plumb for direct import like IAF tied with rafale.

if the IA wants armata , then it is its job to give
1.exact weight of armata,
2.auto loader three men crew
3.remote turret ,
4. 55 to 60 ton specs,
5. Armata's ground pressure per square inch, ets, etc,

Thats for what guys in DMGF are there for,

Very well, so they have not given those many same details and specifications. It means they have something else in mind. Let Armata give their design and DGMF accept it . Has DGMF prevented you to give same specifications ? No... but you are incompetent to provide that since you have no basis or claim to provide that.

Why are they beating around the bush with
1. all vague terms like,
1.medium weight,
2.non overlapping crew,
3, not a single word on the auto loader,
5, no caliber or dia for its main gun,

YOU GIVE THEMALL THAT : THAT IS WHAT EXACTLY THEY WANT . DO IT BOY!

nonsense called FRCV?

Up NORTH THEY SAY " Naach Na Jane Aangan Tedha"... means the dancing floor being uneven is a good reason to extend when you do not know how to dance.....

Only reason is to reject anything advanced by CVRDE citing this or that useless reason.

CVRDE is a useless organisation being the worst amongst DRDO junkets.

 

[ersakthivel]

A Tank Needed to Overrun This and not Bog Down There

​

This is the stupidest excuse,

Arjun has the lowest ground pressure per sq inch thanks to its wide tracks which enables it to cross ravi at lassian, which was marked non tankable in IA's map till arjun entered IA.

Only tanks with lower ground pressure per sqaure inch , not the lowest weight can traverse marshy lands,

With out even knowing these basic facts, you are lecturing us all here!!!!

Actually Arjun can go in those marshy areas and T-72 and , T-90 can not. It is a fact accepted by IA.

This finally confirms my suspicion that you are posting stuff about which you dont even have the faintest idea!!!