Indian Army wants futuristic vehicle for its Armoured corps

[Mad Indian]

There are several alternatives to naval sub systems and platforms, they are still supporting DRDO made equipment and are hands on with their work for the navy.

Dude, da hell? you must be more informed than this. Even I kow that Navy systems are indigenous in name only. The only thing indigenous about Navy ships is the hulls . Even the engines are imported by the "indigenous ships"

 

[Mad Indian]

Not just armata . if the army wants any useful tank with armor worth the name to meet future exigencies, they must be looking at 55-60 tons, not very different from Arjun and a far cry from the weights of T-90 and T-72.

remember we have china as our neighbour who built a railway line to Tibet over thermofrost!!! First things supposed to have been said about Tibet by Englishmen centuries before ," there is no possibility of any railway line here ". But chinese have built it.

When faced with such a mighty enemy, we can not make excuses forever that we dont have infra to transport 60 ton FMBT. It is a treason of the first count. In about a decade chinese develop a 60 ton MBT with 150 mm dia gun and 2000 mts per second muxzzle velocity and gift them to PAK at friendship prices, how will the FMBT that is being requested through this new RFI will fare against it?

Whose job is it to think about such an eventuality? DGMF's or DRDO's?

Remember the karakorum highway, any day in future chinese heavy armor can roll into support PAK in any future war. if such an exigency arises we need heavy tanks that guarantee protection , and that are able to fight back after taking a few hits.

i dont know who is going to make a 50 ton medium FMBT that can do all these for IA.

Please give me a link to back your claim that T-90s AC problems are fixed.If it is I will be the first person to be happy about that, because they too are IA tanks too.AFAIK it is not fixed .P2P posts tons of lies like the problem of T-90 AC being already fixed , without ever bothering to chck the fact.

Also if someone counters him with links and asks him to give a link for his claim , he will either go silent or start abusive posts.

You can google yourself and find out whether this T-90 AC issue is resolved or not. It has not been resolved till date because the tank has little room to add anything.

http://archive.defensenews.com/arti.../Indian-Army-Upgrade-T-90-Tanks-Domestic-Help

Here is the news for it

 

[Mad Indian]

The army specs are beyond simple and this FMBT concept can easily fit in it.

Btw, not giving armor and barrel tech for the T90 aren't simple fixes. The armor the T90 uses now is DRDO's Kanchan armor developed for Arjun and an inferior reworked T72 barrel from OFB. They still refused to give that to India.

Canistered Agni 5 or K4 SLBM from DRDO wasnt built in a day, it came from years of toiling with Prithvi series and early Agnis, which saw several failures.

Fact is VRDE-DRDO have come a long way. Partner them with a private firm like TATA, with active army participation, this armor can be produce in a reasonable time.

TATA Kestral was built and prototyped in record time, and ahead of schedule for example. They also have ambitions to produce MBTs. India will kill it's armored industry if it doesn't act now, it'll be another Marut scenario.

This isnt the 80s, there is an ecosystem to develop sophisticated armor within India, right now.

Again, more speculative nonsense . This program is supposed to be an additive to FMBT. There have been no evidence to suggest otherwise
Your arguments are true only if this is supposed to replace FMBT.

Also, no one in army has indicated they are going to import Armada. And even logically, what you guys are claiming is total BS. If armada tanks i not medium MBT, then DGMF would not have asked from Medium weight tank if it wants armada tanks

 

[Immanuel]

Before allocating a single dime to any futuristic program, IA should be forced by the MOD to accept 2000 Arjun MK-2s. Any such work on future tanks should only be after a massive order of the Arjun is given.

 

[ersakthivel]

http://archive.defensenews.com/arti.../Indian-Army-Upgrade-T-90-Tanks-Domestic-Help

Here is the news for it

ha ha ha, it is the same piece I quoted a few pages before,

Any way this passage shows the mettle of the guys in DGMF,
"
“DRDO had earlier attempted to mount air conditioning systems on the tanks, but were stopped by Russia, citing intellectual property rights,” said Arun Sehgal, a retired Army brigadier general and defense analyst.

“The Russians were then asked to fit the air conditioning systems in the T-90 tanks, but the attempt was unsuccessful,” Sehgal said. The intellectual property rights issue has since been resolved between India and Russia.

Another Army official said, “The thermal imaging system of the T-90 tanks were faulty from the initial stage.”

Nowhere in that report that the heating issue was resolved by DRDO after successfully fitting an AC.

it hints at efforts underway,
"

Why did the russians refused help? WHY THE MUCH HATED DRDO IS ASKED TO UPDATE t-90?

"The upgraded T-90 tanks will have air-conditioning systems, which will be developed by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The tanks’ existing armor protection systems, navigation gear, thermal imaging sights and fire control systems will be replaced."

AND THIS PASSAGE BELOW WILL CONCLUSIVELY EXPOSE THE LIES OF P2P AND BHADRA,

"Rahul Bhonsle, another retired Indian Army brigadier general and defense analyst, said, “A major part of the proposed upgrade will include providing an enhanced fire control potential because in the comparative trials between the Arjun and T-90 tanks last year, the Arjun had demonstrated a superior sighting system than the Russian tank.”"

So taken together this accurate report which names the army officer is all about ,"rectifying the faults on T-90 and bring it close to the arjun standard", but IA is cleverly camouflaging it as upgrades!!!!

So till 2014, thermal sights of t-90 conks in summer desert heat, and crew can't sit inside this heating oven called T-90 and after russians refused help(WHY?, because thew know it can't be done in a satisfactory manner, otherwise why refuse a paying contract? ) now same DRDO which is called as DODO by few fools here is being roped into make the faulty T-90 operational in indian desert.

And final results are still not out!!!

 

[Mad Indian]

Before allocating a single dime to any futuristic program, IA should be forced by the MOD to accept 2000 Arjun MK-2s. Any such work on future tanks should only be after a massive order of the Arjun is given.

And what difference is that going to make

 

[Mad Indian]

ha ha ha, it is the same piece I quoted a few pages before,

Any way this passage shows the mettle of the guys in DGMF,
"
“DRDO had earlier attempted to mount air conditioning systems on the tanks, but were stopped by Russia, citing intellectual property rights,” said Arun Sehgal, a retired Army brigadier general and defense analyst.

“The Russians were then asked to fit the air conditioning systems in the T-90 tanks, but the attempt was unsuccessful,” Sehgal said. The intellectual property rights issue has since been resolved between India and Russia.

Another Army official said, “The thermal imaging system of the T-90 tanks were faulty from the initial stage.”

Nowhere in that report that the heating issue was resolved by DRDO after successfully fitting an AC.

it hints at efforts underway,
"

Why did the russians refused help? WHY THE MUCH HATED DRDO IS ASKED TO UPDATE t-90?

"The upgraded T-90 tanks will have air-conditioning systems, which will be developed by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The tanks’ existing armor protection systems, navigation gear, thermal imaging sights and fire control systems will be replaced."

Dude, you asked for T90 problems getting fixed, I have given a link of that. Dont change the goal post now.
Now give me more valid answers for my questions. And no, not half retarded opinion pieces from idrw.

What is the logistical chain capacity of the Arjuns? Was it adequate? It is not something which can be easily fixed by added an AC. Was it available at the time IA was looking to induct them?

 

[ersakthivel]

Dude, you asked for T90 problems getting fixed, I have given a link of that. Dont change the goal post now.
Now give me more valid answers for my questions. And no, not half retarded opinion pieces from idrw.

What is the logistical chain capacity of the Arjuns? Was it adequate? It is not something which can be easily fixed by added an AC. Was it available at the time IA was looking to induct them?

That is the crux of problem of comprehension you guys (blind hatred for DRDO, with no undestanding of the matter)have here at DFI.

You dont even read the link you post!!!!

As per the link the upgrade to fit the AC is being attempted. Russians neither helped us nor allowed DRDO to have a go at it. Now only russian opposition to DRDO fitting Ac on T-90 s resolved. Not the actual fitting of AC to T-90.

Read before you reply.

http://www.defproac.com/?p=982



" The weight was initially 58.5 T and may increase to approx 67 T with additional armour protection. Arjun project was conceived based on the matching requirement of the current western MBT’s and naturally, the weight will also match them.

However, the weight factor has not hampered the movement of various prototypes of Arjun during last 20 years, for trials/ training to various sectors, by both, rail and road, by existing means of transportation and no problems have been faced so far.

The feasibility report by the railways has also confirmed, the movement of Arjun loaded wagon as class ‘C’ ODC and the empty wagon as non-ODC. We need to look at the Arjun weight issue in a broader perspective as it is not a reflection of its agility and gradability. Being powered with a 1400 HP engine, its power /weight ratio is 21.0, and the Nominal Ground Pressure (NGP) of 0.95 kg/cm2 compares well with other MBTs of the world and the combination of low NGP and high power / weight ratio, its going ability is commendable. The comparative table highlights these aspects."

So it never faced any issues in logistics as far as indian railways is concerned even in its prototype period no special wagons were needed.

SO now we have a product that matches western MBts

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2010/03/arjun-tank-outruns-outguns-russian-t-90.html

"we already have 70 ton capable Sarvantra bridging equippment"

"Arjun weight: 58.5 tons
Sarvatra: MLC 70 - ie Military Load Class 70 and can handle upto 70 tons

Width Arjun: 3.86
Sarvatra width: 4
"

"We already have the Sarvatra bridge, which can take a load of 70 tonnes. The latest T-72 Bridge Layer Tank has also been designed for the Arjun.

Rail and road wagons have already been designed and produced for the Arjun".

SO we need no extra logistics for Arjun or any other heavy tank.

IA oprated 52 ton centurian tanks decades before. So why the fuss about heavy tank logistics now?

 

[Mad Indian]

That is the crux of problem of comprehension you guys (blind hatred for DRDO, with no undestanding of the matter)have here at DFI.

You dont even read the link you post!!!!

As per the link the upgrade to fit the AC is being attempted. Russians neither helped us nor allowed DRDO to have a go at it. Now only russian opposition to DRDO fitting Ac on T-90 s resolved. Not the actual fitting of AC to T-90.

Read before you reply.

http://www.defproac.com/?p=982

" The weight was initially 58.5 T and may increase to approx 67 T with additional armour protection. Arjun project was conceived based on the matching requirement of the current western MBT’s and naturally, the weight will also match them.

However, the weight factor has not hampered the movement of various prototypes of Arjun during last 20 years, for trials/ training to various sectors, by both, rail and road, by existing means of transportation and no problems have been faced so far.

The feasibility report by the railways has also confirmed, the movement of Arjun loaded wagon as class ‘C’ ODC and the empty wagon as non-ODC. We need to look at the Arjun weight issue in a broader perspective as it is not a reflection of its agility and gradability. Being powered with a 1400 HP engine, its power /weight ratio is 21.0, and the Nominal Ground Pressure (NGP) of 0.95 kg/cm2 compares well with other MBTs of the world and the combination of low NGP and high power / weight ratio, its going ability is commendable. The comparative table highlights these aspects."

So it never faced any issues in logistics as far as indian railways is concerned even in its prototype period no special wagons were needed.

SO now we have a product that matches western MBts

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2010/03/arjun-tank-outruns-outguns-russian-t-90.html

"we already have 70 ton capable Sarvantra bridging equippment"

My comprehension is fine thank you. I know what the article was talking about. I know it is something which can be fixed.

Now coming back to the question, you have provided only half the story - railways. Ray and others claimed that these arjun tanks cannot cross many bridges in India, because of its weight. Do you have answers for that? And Logisitics includes that too dude.

And you dint answer my question-conviniently. Probably why P2p go fed up with your kind. Was Arjun ready and comparable when Army was looking to Induct them in the first place. I know it was better than T90 during the trails in 2008?! But was it available and at par with T90 during the time of induction of T 90? I know that that was the time actually earmarked for its induction.

 

[ersakthivel]

My comprehension is fine thank you. I know what the article was talking about. I know it is something which can be fixed.

Now coming back to the question, you have provided only half the story - railways. Ray and others claimed that these arjun tanks cannot cross many bridges in India, because of its weight. Do you have answers for that? And Logisitics includes that too dude.

And you dint answer my question-conviniently. Probably why P2p go fed up with your kind. Was Arjun ready and comparable when Army was looking to Induct them in the first place. I know it was better than T90 during the trails in 2008?! But was it available and at par with T90 during the time of induction of T 90? I know that that was the time actually earmarked for its induction.

It cant be fixed to military standards!!!

There will be huge protruding , external cooling fan which will be knocked out from any stray sharpnel from any arti barrage which is customary for any tank unit to endure . Then same problems of electronics chocking and crew fainting will repeat. Got it. Thats why russians refused to offer help and IA is hunting DRDO to put the shame on its head. Got it?

T-90 like the armata is made by russians not with the primary needs of IA which is fighting in rajasthan desert during wrenching summer heat. Most of its theater of ops is eastern europe and russia , mostly cold all the times.

Without even such basic understanding the IA spent billions on T-90 and now looking for DRDO's head to lay the blame for stupid AC needs,.Thats how decisions are made in DGMF, They bought the tank with no extended trials in rajasthan desert. because they know only too well it will fail.

It was par for the course in scandalous UPA times. DGMF repeatedly lied about Arjun being not ready , after slyly adding more spec revisions each time it completed its previous spec revision to keep on buying T-90s in thousands.

Logistics for 55 to 60 ton tanks must be in place for any Army that wishes to stand in modern battle ground. DRDO has already given them Sarvantra BLT which has 70 ton capacity that can be used for all tanks T-90, T-72 and Arjun.

But IA repeatedly ignored it.

And i have no time to waste researching the reasons behind "running away of eggsperts like P2P" from this forum.

regarding Arjun being not ready during T-90s time of induction. if GSQR was revised 5 times during its design phase how do you expect it to be ready.

The IA which is adopting a guardian angel attitude on T-90 by faking its shortfalls as upgrades, failed to adapt the same approach in Arjun induction by having upgraded specs in each batch of 500 tanks. therin lies the scam of inducting thousands of summer unfit T-90s spending billions of dollars , while perpetually shifting goal posts on arjun.

 

[jackprince]

. I know it is something which can be fixed.

Can it be fixed on the existing fleet w/o compromising structural integrity or weakening the Armour? If so, why did not the russians did it at the 1st place?

 

[Mad Indian]

It cant be fixed to military standards!!!

There will be huge protruding , external cooling fan which will be knocked out from any stray sharpnel from any arti barrage which is customary for any tank unit to endure . Then same problems of electronics chocking and crew fainting will repeat. Got it. Thats why russians refused to offer help and IA is hunting DRDO to put the shame on its head. Got it?

T-90 like the armata is made by russians not with the primary needs of IA which is fighting in rajasthan desert during wrenching summer heat. Most of its theater of ops is eastern europe and russia , mostly cold all the times.

Without even such basic understanding the IA spent billions on T-90 and now looking for DRDO's head to lay the blame for stupid AC needs,.Thats how decisions are made in DGMF, They bought the tank with no extended trials in rajasthan desert. because they know only too well it will fail.

It was par for the course in scandalous UPA times. DGMF repeatedly lied about Arjun being not ready , after slyly adding more spec revisions each time it completed its previous spec revision to keep on buying T-90s in thousands.

Logistics for 55 to 60 ton tanks must be in place for any Army that wishes to stand in modern battle ground. DRDO has already given them Sarvantra BLT which has 70 ton capacity that can be used for all tanks T-90, T-72 and Arjun.

But IA repeatedly ignored it.

And i have no time to waste researching the reasons behind "running away of eggsperts like P2P" from this forum.

Fine you can continue your rhetorics. I couldn't care less. I want answers and not rhetoric.

 

[Mad Indian]

Can it be fixed on the existing fleet w/o compromising structural integrity or weakening the Armour? If so, why did not the russians did it at the 1st place?

If its something which cant be fixed, why dint DRDO claim it to be so when they were asked to? What kind of reasoning is this.

I think russians dint since they dint need that to be fixed for them and so that they can arm twist IA for more concessions for modifying their IP.

 

[jackprince]

If its something which cant be fixed, why dint DRDO claim it to be so when they were asked to? What kind of reasoning is this.

I think russians dint since they dint need that to be fixed for them and so that they can arm twist IA for more concessions for modifying their IP.

DRDO has to because those machines are already bought and even with weakened armour, they HAVE TO FIGHT if called on. India cannot scrap the whole 800 or so in a go, can it? The fix would be there but with compromises to fighting ability and lesser chance of survivality. Not ideal, but mandatory if any of the tanks are to see battle in summer. DRDO is trying to patch up a faulty syst which was bought by all knowing DGMF. So don't put the onus on DRDO.

I N no fan of DRDO. But I recognise a hogwash when I see it, like the GSQR RFI of DGMF.

 

[Mad Indian]

DRDO has to because those machines are already bought and even with weakened armour, they HAVE TO FIGHT if called on. India cannot scrap the whole 800 or so in a go, can it? The fix would be there but with compromises to fighting ability and lesser chance of survivality. Not ideal, but mandatory if any of the tanks are to see battle in summer. DRDO is trying to patch up a faulty syst which was bought by all knowing DGMF. So don't put the onus on DRDO.

I N no fan of DRDO. But I recognise a hogwash when I see it, like the GSQR RFI of DGMF.

Well you have a point.

But again, this still does not answer How Army could have procured Arjun when it was not ready(it was good only in 2008?!)? And how Army could have revoked the entire T90 for the new Arjun when all the logistics platforms and such are for T90s,

And finally, it still does not answer why this RFI is bad. You guys are yet to answer the claims that these are just RFI and not RFP and it is to fish out what the companies are willing to offer as designs.

 

[ersakthivel]

Fine you can continue your rhetorics. I couldn't care less. I want answers and not rhetoric.

Again a a useless one liner with no purpose!!!

 

[Mad Indian]

Again a a useless one liner with no purpose!!!

It needs no purpose when answering fanboys

 

[ersakthivel]

It needs no purpose when answering fanboys

1.List the ground pressure sq inch of all IA tanks and say which tank will traverse marshlands river beds better?

2. Which type of ammo has better development prospect, one piece ammo or two piece,And what is its relationship with auto loader?

3.which type of gun has higher .firing range, rifled of smooth bore? Why?

4.Which tank in IA is fit to operate for prolonged periods in indian desert condition with out AC?

5.The T-90 armor and gun barrel(most crucial elements of any MBT) or manufactured from the technology developed for Arjun program by CVRDE-Right or wrong?

6. All the Invar missiles supplied by russians for T-90 were bound to be defective and sent back to russia-right or wrong?

7. During Operation parakram IA panicked and warned the NDA govt that the T-90s thermal vision and other electronics dont function in desert , and from that time on IA is begging at the same doorsteps of the same hated CVRDE to fix AC to make the T-90 work in desert -Right or wrong?

8. But Arjun does not need AC as it has enough pace and ventilation and heat hardened electronics and now ready for desert warfae any time-Right or wrong.

9. Any External Ac fitting to t-90 will hugely compromise its fighting capability , because it will be the first thing to get busted from stray sharpnells in any artillery barrage, right or wrong?

10. Also the crew in t-90 can not withstand stifling desert heat and a crew man fainted during the exercise due to heat right or wrong?

11.With such comedy of errors under their belt ,how do you expect DGMF to evaluate FRCV about which they dont even have the faintest idea left to themselves?

 

[Mad Indian]

1.List the ground pressure sq inch of all IA tanks and say which tank will traverse marshlands river beds better?

2. Which type of ammo has better development prospect, one piece ammo or two piece,And what is its relationship with auto loader?

3.which type of gun has higher .firing range, rifled of smooth bore? Why?

4.Which tank in IA is fit to operate for prolonged periods in indian desert condition with out AC?

5.The T-90 armor and gun barrel(most crucial elements of any MBT) or manufactured from the technology developed for Arjun program by CVRDE-Right or wrong?

6. All the Invar missiles supplied by russians for T-90 were bound to be defective and sent back to russia-right or wrong?

7. During Operation parakram IA panicked and warned the NDA govt that the T-90s thermal vision and other electronics dont function in desert , and from that time on IA is begging at the same doorsteps of the same hated CVRDE to fix AC to make the T-90 work in desert -Right or wrong?

8. But Arjun does not need AC as it has enough pace and ventilation and heat hardened electronics and now ready for desert warfae any time-Right or wrong.

9. Any External Ac fitting to t-90 will hugely compromise its fighting capability , because it will be the first thing to get busted from stray sharpnells in any artillery barrage, right or wrong?

10. Also the crew in t-90 can not withstand stifling desert heat and a crew man fainted during the exercise due to heat right or wrong?

11.With such comedy of errors under their belt ,how do you expect DGMF to evaluate FRCV about which they dont even have the faintest idea left to themselves?

I agree with you that IA should have travelled forward in time and Inducted Arjun from 2008 in 1998. Happy?

 

[ersakthivel]

I agree with you that IA should have travelled forward in time and Inducted Arjun from 2008 in 1998. Happy?

take time to appreciate the morally compromised DGMF trying to scuttle Arjun as late as 2014!!!

here is the comparison table which blows away all the BS being peddled by you and your ilk that Arjun was ready and T-90 was not ready!!!!

The table below lists the crooked motive of DGMF in setting different comparison table for Arjun adn T-90 with the intent of giving T-90 an unfair advantage!!!

This is the authoritative CAG document , not some BS pulled out of the ass of your guru P2P OR ANOTHER GUY NAMING drdo AS dodo!!!

Read AND enjoy!!!!

Even now T-90 which was bought in 1000s spending billions of dollars of tax payer money is still at a readiness far below of Arjun MBT mk1!!!!

Thats why parameters for evaluating T-90 was relaxed. The crooks who set up this evaluation knew in advance that T-90 cant ever pass the same standard set for Arjun even for simple operations in non demanding trials, let alone its complete failure in desert , which is being covered up as 600 million dollar upgrade!!!!