But there was enough arguments against Arjun which no one countered. Logistic chain is the biggest of them. Even t 90 supporters accepted that Arjun 1v1 will have few advantage over t90 in some areas which should be fixed in t90 to make it as good as arjun . but the flaws of arjun- the heavy weight and the associated a logistic chains is something which can't be corrected and hence army sticks with t 90.
Has anyone here enough knowledge to prove that Arjun logistic chain is as good as it is for t90s ? I doubt they can as it is something only army can talk about and they are forbidden from doing so in the public. Basically you guys are fighting a guys whose arms are tied. Not fair or correct.
All arguments against Arjun have been countered, including lies like "30 years" that was peddled even in this thread.
The logistics for T-72 and T-90 are based on a foreign hardware. We need to change that, and put in a chain of logistics for domestic hardware. Period.
Now you are giving tactical advice to armed forces.
He is being mild. If it were up to me, I'd say, summarily fire these people who would fail a class 12 physics exam. I wonder why these people are occupying such high posts when they should be selling tea at a village train station. We have too many such undeserving people hiding behind the uniform. The Indian Army needs to be cleansed of such people. Feel free to interpret this as an accusation against every soldier of the Indian Army, as you are the master of strawman argument in DFI.
Well, I din't realize that I was speaking to a full backed retard!!!
No need to abuse him.
@Mad Indian has a reputation of being a potty mouth. He was banned and was brought back, and he has failed to desist from being a perpetual potty mouth since. Anyone who disagrees with him, is either a retard, or a moron, or an idiot, or a dingbat (his latest favourite word). You are better than that. You don't need to abuse him back. His reputation precedes him.
I thought that is what DRDO is not ! It is supposed to be leading "scientific", a visionary organisation which has certain labs with them for experiments and development. The role and mission of DRDO needs to be read and reread by you again and again.
In terms of functional ethos, culture and bending all rules , DRDO is worst of them all.
I once had an argument with a US army guy who was bragging about his "experience" with the Stinger missile. I asked him to name some algorithms that are used to track a target, such as, in a heat seeking missile. He got very angry because he had no clue what the answer would be.
P.S.: I personally spoke with one professor from Essex University whose team worked on part of the logic that goes into a Scalp-EG.
Arjun has the lowest ground pressure per sq inch thanks to its wide tracks which enables it to cross ravi at lassian, which was marked non tankable in IA's map till arjun entered IA.
Pressure is force per unit area. This is taught at secondary level physics class. People participating in this thread are expected to know that.
What middlemen, the DGMF himself is subject of doubt. Why else would he give such a Paki styled RFI.
All he wants is to be able to say - nahi abhi aur delay and just to save my own ass he will call it 'improvements'.
DGMF just wants to avoid all responsibility.
But whatever the attitude of the DGMF and cohorts can a nationalist afford more Khetarpals? If not then why are these inadequate tanks being imported. Why is an inordinate amount spent on Capital acquisitions when they don't have enough money for buying ammo.
Because................they already know that they will easily get more Khetarpals even as they themselves angle for positions and pelf using their old-boys-network.
Now we have a name of the DGMF. I give you credit for that. What is the educational qualification of this guy called Bhardwaj? I would welcome a Jitender Singh Tomar style investigations on this guy as well.
Dude , this is the problem with people like you. All the points you have raised has already been addressed by people like p2prada 1 year back. And yet you refuse to accept it due to your bias. Nothing can be done about that.
IA has logistical problems with Arjun since entire logistic chain of IA is for T90s and 72s, yes or no? How do you fight war without logistic support. Even in t90 vs Arjun thread this was brought up but none of you fanboys answered it and instead shouted only weight per square inch and what not.
P2P said a lot of things that are correct. However, the day he tried to show off his "expertise" by talking about IEEE in a discussion about mechanical engineering, I lost all respect for him. He is a troll, albeit glorified by some. We all make mistakes, but being deliberately dishonest is something that really ticks me off.
Moreover, in your response to
@ersakthivel's post that talks about ground pressure (among other things), let me tell you, I remember very well that P2P had no answer to the issue of ground pressure other than personal attacks. It is no surprise he is so dear to you.
No one in Army has said they are going to procure Armada. So Your justification that since Army wants armada , they must have logistics for Arjun is as silly as it can get. And army asking for medium tank now also confirms the same thing- logistics for a heavy tank as of now in IA is limited
BTW, Ray sir said the same thing about Arjun regarding logistics not just p2p.
No one disagrees that logistics are suitable for T-72 and T-90, but we need to set up logistics for domestically made hardware. If it does not exist for Arjun, then create one. We need to stop using this as an excuse.
You are right but middle men exist for the stuff DRDO buys and paints as indigenous too. Even the tejas is not indigenous when we have ! So its a moot point to bring it up as an excuse against army since both army and DRDO engage with them and engage in corruption.
Hardware that is 99% imported is better than hardware that is 100% imported.
If that is the case, then I agree it is pretty stupid that IA bought the T-90. But really, what choice did it have when Arjun was not available when T90 was inducted?
And dude, Indian army did eventually reconfigured T90s with ACs. This again was already addressed by P2Prada when he was here- how most of the T90 flaws were correctable with minor fixes while most of the problems with Arjun like its heavy weight required massive overhaul of its logistics network. This point has so far never been countered by the Arjun fanboys. Lets see if you do
Yes, that is the case. This has been mentioned way too many times, but you are realizing this now. I am glad you are realizing. Better late than never. This proves you don't read what other people write. You just keep building strawmen and continue to argue against them.
So Charlie it is ODC .. which can rub narrow under-bridges, passing trains and even platforms. It is dangerous consignment for Indian Railways.
What a load of rubbish! This will scrape the platform? This can rub under the bridges? This can rub passing trains? Where do you get these fairy tales from?
You are embarrassing yourself by making such unfounded comments. No wagon is allowed on Indian Railway tracks without the approval of RDSO, and I bet you don't know what that is while you are reading this post. Google it, and also learn about the loading gauge for Broad Gauge tracks of Indian Railways.
Happy to be corrected with legitimate references.
More technical details about BFAT wagons to put an end to this repeated peddling of myths in DFI:
It shows the
1971 standards for maximum and minimum dimensions of rolling stock. [Source:
IRFCA]
BFAT wagons: BOGIE FLAT ARJUN TANK WAGON [Source:
IRFCA]
Here is a
PDF that gives the technical details about the BFAT Wagon.
Let us compare:
Height
BFAT Wagon floor height from rail level: 1306 mm
Arjun Tank's height: 2320 mm.
Total height or BFAT loaded with Arjun tank: 1306 mm + 2320 mm = 2456 mm from rail level.
Total allowed height of Indian Railway rolling stock: 4875 mm.
There is no question of scraping under the bridges.
Width
BFAT Wagon width over body: 3550 mm.
Arjun Tank's width: 3864 mm at a height > 1306 mm from rail level.
Allowed width over 1306 mm from rail level: 2135 mm x 2 = 4270 mm.
This is above platform level (840 mm from rail level; see 1971 standard, BFAT specifications, and BFAT picture), and hence, there is no question of scraping the platform, as is claimed.
BFAT Wagons are made by:
Texmaco, Calcutta, WB
BEML, Nundydroog, Karnataka
