Indian Army Artillery

[Kunal Biswas]

The Dreaded 160mm Mortars in Kargil ..

 

[Bhadra]

1. Reserves
-----------

Every force uses some calculation for reserves. No idea what Indian Army uses. For example Air force keeps a certain number of planes per squadron as attrition reserves.

It is common sense that any fight with China (a very well equipped army) would cause serious attrition of men and materiel. You do not need a rocket scientist to figure it out.

I would think you need one gun in reserve for every one gun issued. You cannot build large caliber guns very quickly. You need to have them built and stored somewhere.

China is rumoured to have underground "cities" where massive amount of war materiel is stored.

2. Calculation for number of guns: My calculation may be wrong in the context of Indian Army. Can you tell me the correct calculation?

3. Your success with China will completely depend on your ability to successfully deploy heavy weapons. The days of assault rifle are history. You will need logistics for moving heavy weapons and ammunition and good reserves to sustain yourself in the battlefield.

4. I feel artillery is more important than machine guns. You will face heavy artillery fire and rocket fire. I doubt you can use machine guns for counter-attack.

5. Indian army is deployed on the fringes of Tibetan plateau where the battle will be decided by artillery.

Mr Garg

I do not know about your status and interest in the Artillery..

However, these is a very famous adage as also principle for Artillery.. and that is :

" There is No Reserve in Artillery"

The war wastage reserve in tubes in artillery is almost negligible.. may be one gun per Regiment... kept away, that does not and can not take part in firing...

what that means is that every single tube that has a range for the objective fires .. and fires .. firing is their bread and butter and not being in reserve..

 

[Zebra]

As per SIPRI, India selected FH 77B in 2013, but didn't signed the contract.

Any idea on that please.

 

[sgarg]

Mr Garg

I do not know about your status and interest in the Artillery..

However, these is a very famous adage as also principle for Artillery.. and that is :

" There is No Reserve in Artillery"

The war wastage reserve in tubes in artillery is almost negligible.. may be one gun per Regiment... kept away, that does not and can not take part in firing...

what that means is that every single tube that has a range for the objective fires .. and fires .. firing is their bread and butter and not being in reserve..

My interest in military started in USA in 1998, when I worked close to Wall Street and bought several books on military and wars (2nd world war).

I have no formal military background.

I have visited a large number of war related museums in the USA and Canada just to understand military affairs. It is a hobby.

The equipment that is hard to manufacture like large calibre guns, tanks, AFVs etc. must have reserves as wartime requirements can always be more than expected.

I think modern war is a test of a country's industrial capability. Generally a country with greater industrial capability will prevail.

It is not only the quality but also quantity that will decide the winner. The quantity must not be forgotten.

For example, you take two 155mm guns, one costs 5 million and is more accurate. Another costs 1 million and is less accurate. Surely 5 million gun is more desirable but both guns face equal risk in battlefield. The 5 million gun does not give you less attrition.

 

[Punya Pratap]

Times of India :
Army ignored desi Bofors for 3 years before going for it
Shishir Arya,TNN | Oct 13, 2014, 03.08 AM IST


NAGPUR: After the last round of firing trials ended in September, the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) is now awaiting the final word from Army's directorate general of quality assurance (DGQA) on the indigenous Bofors guns. With the DGQA expected to take its own time to finalize a report, it is felt that probably the Desi Bofors project should have started some years earlier. Or, at least the work on upgrading the existing fleet of Swedish Bofors guns could have begun sooner.

TOI has learnt that in 2008 itself the OFB had upgraded an existing Bofors gun of 155x39 calibre to 155x45, and was keen to go for user trials with the Army. The Army Headquarters (AHQ), for reasons best known to it, did not respond positively, say sources here. Though OFB finally got the order to make Bofors-type guns from the Army, this happened only in 2011.

As the calibre goes up, the range also increases. The OFB had modified the existing guns by including new features. The gun upgraded from 155x39 to 155x45 could achieve the desired range of over 40km, which is 5-6km more than the existing guns procured from Sweden. The performance was also displayed to the Army in 2008. But when it came to holding user trials, which is the next step in evaluating a weapon system, Army asked OFB to come through the open tendering mode.

However, the request for proposals (RFP) to buy the guns from the open market did not succeed, and the Army had to revert to OFB again, said sources in this organization. Finally, the OFB got an order to make the guns in 2011. The Desi Bofors, now named Dhanush, are being made in the Gun Carriage Factory at Jabalpur, for which firing trials concluded last month and a DGQA report is awaited.

The gun made in 2008 was upgraded from an existing gun with the Army. At that time, OFB was also ready to give a prototype of the guns within 24 months of getting a go-ahead, with the final production starting 36 months after getting a subsequent clearance.

OFB reminded the Army about its readiness a year later, when the latter sought its views on procuring over 100 upgraded Bofors type guns. At that time, OFB reminded the Army about the upgraded version it had developed and its readiness to take up production.

For the guns with 155x39, OFB had secured the transfer of technology when the howitzers were purchased from Sweden. The ToT covered almost all aspects, though certain spares needed to be purchased from open market vendors.

Apart from making the guns with an upgraded calibre, even earlier OFB was keen to take up production of the 155x39 type guns on the basis of the TOT it had, but got no orders from the Army. The OFB acts on the basis of orders from the Army.

OFB feels that probably because the Army was interested in buying higher calibre guns it was not keen on making more units of existing guns.

Finally, when efforts to buy the artillery guns from open market did not succeed, a decision was taken by the Defence Acquisition Council in 2011 to revert to OFB.

 

[Raj Malhotra]

There is lot of money to be made and bribes flow like water even before the award of final order i.e. during the RFI and RFP stages. So, the bigwigs wanted to keep the tap on.

 

[blueblood]

India does not have heavy artillery.

It has medium and field artillery.

In mountainous terrain firing any 'area weapon' (the artillery is an area weapon), the fall of shot will include some falling on the target, many short of the target and many over the target.

Bofors proved very successful in the Kargil War because it was used in direct role (like a flat trajectory weapon) and because a preponderance of shells were fired so that, notwithstanding the 'overs' and 'short', the requisite number of shells found the target.

The same will be the effect in any other mountainous area agaisnt the PLA or the Pakistanis.

Considering that most armies in the world are standardizing their arty, 155 can be considered as heavy, I think.

http://hope.nps.edu/Academics/Centers/CCC/Research/StudentTheses/Acosta03.pdf

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsmallwarsjournal.com%2Fblog%2Fjournal%2Fdocs-temp%2F397-jackson.pdf&ei=b-M7VOanKNegugTcm4LQBA&usg=AFQjCNGrsGvx-h-5OifwFjrM97j_seiAoQ&bvm=bv.77161500,d.c2E&cad=rja

Found them to be good read.

 

[Ray]

155 is taken to be a medium gun in the Army.

Thanks for the links.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

155 is taken to be a medium gun in the Army.

Thanks for the links.

then what is heavy artillary ?

MRLS or some higher mm / high cal ?

 

[The Fox]

Huh.....................

you must also know the effects of artillery when pakistan and indian army fired at each other during op parakram and post parakram before cease fire agreement of 2003. There was a period of close to three years when both sides used all sorts of guns and weapons including bofors / 155 mm at each other.


Well kargil _ success has many fathers. Must know that standard of sanagers and stone / rubble bunkers made by the northern light infantry over a period of three moths, were not able to to take hit of artillery shell. They were not under rcc bunkers.

Bofors, were more successful because of it being howitzer and able to fire at high angles which 105 mm field guns and 130 mediums were not able to do. As also due to heavy shells.

Bofors were more successful in giving camera and video shots to the media like burkha dutt and others and being in the eyes of public firing from kargil bowl .

Could you tell me how many artillery foo were killed during the operation being with assaulting companies?

 

[Zebra]

then what is heavy artillary ?

MRLS or some higher mm / high cal ?

Category:Artillery by caliber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Hari Sud]

Can somebody educate me on Ruag artillery and its connection to Bharat Forge. If Bharat Forge gun is basically Ruag, then why is taking so long for Indian army to test it.

Then again, if I remember correctly there was post which said that Denel gun is also partly based on Ruag artillery system.

With that kind of availability of so many artillery systems, why is Indian army wasting time on induction of one or the other self propelled system.

 

[Ray]

then what is heavy artillary ?

MRLS or some higher mm / high cal ?

There is no heavy artillery as such since missiles have replaced them for range etc.

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

Can somebody educate me on Ruag artillery and its connection to Bharat Forge. If Bharat Forge gun is basically Ruag, then why is taking so long for Indian army to test it.

Then again, if I remember correctly there was post which said that Denel gun is also partly based on Ruag artillery system.

With that kind of availability of so many artillery systems, why is Indian army wasting time on induction of one or the other self propelled system.

NEW DELHI — A little known name in India's defense sector — privately owned Bharat Forge — plans to become a major player, especially in the artillery and specialized vehicles segment.

The company, which belongs to the Kalyani Group, has acquired the gun manufacturing facility from Switzerland's Ruag and has been given permission by the government to set up a joint venture with Elbit Systems of Israel.

The joint venture will be called BF Elbit Advanced. It will develop, assemble and manufacture defense systems, particularly artillery guns, mortar gun systems and ammunition.

Until 2011, private companies in India could not enter the defense sector.

Rajinder Bhatia, CEO of Bharat Forge, said the company has received requests for information (RFIs) for several high-tech projects in the past year, including the low-level quick-reaction missile system; medium-range, surface-to-air missile system; and long-range, surface-to-air missile system. Bhatia said Bharat Forge will concentrate mainly on the gun projects and will not participate in the RFIs offered.

"Kalyani Group has a very focused approach, and we intend participating in certain chosen segments which are aligned to our core competence," Bhatia said. "Our competence is towards weapon systems which require high-tech manufacturing and in-depth knowledge of metallurgy and materials."

The company has developed a 155mm/52-caliber gun and has teamed with Elbit Systems to co-develop and co-produce the mountain version of the gun.

The Indian Army has a requirement for a variety of 155mm/52-caliber guns worth more than US $3 billion. Yet, the Army has failed to acquire a single gun from the overseas market.

With Elbit, Bhatia said he sees an opportunity.

"Elbit is a very strong company with a wide ranging portfolio," Bhatia said. "There are a number of segments like artillery systems, protected vehicles, precision ammunition and other high-end products where we can collaborate with each other."
Overseas Tie-up

To tap into the $100 billion defense market — and encouraged by the government's initiative to boost domestic defense companies — Bharat Forge plans several tie-ups with overseas companies, but isn't ready to name them yet.

Analysts say domestic defense companies will need to partner with overseas companies aggressively to compete in several defense tenders being offered first to domestic firms as part of an unwritten Defence Ministry policy to boost the domestic industry.

"Without a doubt, [Bharat Forge] will need to collaborate with overseas companies for system-level know-how and will most likely get to start a build-to-print facility should they win the contract," said Rajesh Narayan, a Mumbai-based investment banker. "However, should they aspire for the partnership to evolve into local system integration, they need to forge alliances and partnerships with Indian small manufacturing enterprises."
Gun Facility

Bharat Forge's acquisition of Ruag allows it to build self-propelled artillery guns and vehicles at Pune in India.

The facility has been manufacturing artillery systems, including M109 self-propelled tracked systems. The line was upgraded in 2004 to tackle artillery systems for 155mm/52-caliber guns. In addition, the line has also been used to upgrade tank systems from 105mm to 120mm artillery gun systems.

Another Bharat Forge executive claimed the company can manufacture a variety of guns, including 105mm, 130mm and 155mm/52-caliber naval guns. The facility can also upgrade armored systems, the executive added.

Some of Bharat Forge's ongoing projects include upgrade programs for light multipurpose reconnaissance vehicles, light bulletproof vehicles and light strike vehicles.

Bharat Forge Makes a Play To Expand | Defense News | defensenews.com

 

[Zebra]

Can somebody educate me on Ruag artillery and its connection to Bharat Forge. If Bharat Forge gun is basically Ruag, then why is taking so long for Indian army to test it.

Then again, if I remember correctly there was post which said that Denel gun is also partly based on Ruag artillery system.

With that kind of availability of so many artillery systems, why is Indian army wasting time on induction of one or the other self propelled system.

First they will send 'RFI' to the company.

Second they will send 'RFP' to the company.

Finally they will send 'RIP' to the company.

And I am serious.

 

[Ray]

then what is heavy artillary ?

MRLS or some higher mm / high cal ?

On Heavy artillery, you may like to read this.

on heavy artillery - Defense Technical Information Center
https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&r...ZbokEwrQfDUKid71Q&sig2=qLZ3SvKRMeE334YhseBAnA

It gives an interesting commentary.

 

[Ripples]

IF we compare Turkey made SH -1 155mm gun (Pantar Howitzer bought by Pakistan ) with OFB made 155 gun which one stands out ? @ ALL

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Pantar is a 18ton gun system without any electronic fire control system nor with crane and has semi auto loader and has a slower rate of fire compare to Dhanush, Dhanush is a under 13ton with electronic fire-control system and equipped with its own crane and auto-loader ..

IF we compare Turkey made SH -1 155mm gun (Pantar Howitzer bought by Pakistan ) with OFB made 155 gun which one stands out ? @ ALL

 

[W.G.Ewald]

On Heavy artillery, you may like to read this.

on heavy artillery - Defense Technical Information Center
https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&r...ZbokEwrQfDUKid71Q&sig2=qLZ3SvKRMeE334YhseBAnA

It gives an interesting commentary.

Sir, from the link you posted.

When the United States declared war
on Germany in the spring of 1917,
its Army possessed literally no
artillery. Regiments in the field that
had recently come out of Mexico were armed
with the 3-inch gun and the 4.7, both of
which were on their way out and were not
rated suitable for operations on the Western
Front.

True so far as Field Artillery. However, Coastal Artillery, a branch of the Army had larger caliber guns, I believe.

[PDF]http://cdsg.org/old/reprint%20PDFs/CACreg1.pdf[/PDF]

 

[Ray]

@WGEwald,

While what you say is right, yet the advent of technologies, especially in military aviation, naval aviation, jet aircraft, and guided missiles, has replaced huge static weaponry.

In countries where coastal artillery has not been disbanded, I believe these forces have acquired amphibious capabilities. In littoral warfare, mobile coastal artillery armed with surface-to-surface missiles still can be used to deny the use of sea lanes.

In India we disbanded the coastal Artillery long back.