Indian Army Artillery

sgarg

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Every other major army (USA, China, Russia) seems to have a higher number of artillery per man compared to India.

While I can understand a lower level of tanks and IFVs due to lower mechanization, the number of guns clearly seem too low.

Any reasons??
 

Kunal Biswas

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In my recent tour i have collected some of very important Quotes of field commanders and high rank officers so does grunts on Ground during Kargil conflict, These Quotes will demolish everyone of those doubts regarding effectiveness of Artillery, These Quotes are never before publish on Internet, Will be soon posting these as soon as i reach home also will post some rare images from this war .... :)
 

Bhadra

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Every other major army (USA, China, Russia) seems to have a higher number of artillery per man compared to India.
what precisely are you meaning by that? Specially "per man" ??

While I can understand a lower level of tanks and IFVs due to lower mechanization, the number of guns clearly seem too low.

Any reasons??
How can you say that ?

The number of Guns required are as per military task. So what is your idea of " Guns clearly seems too low" ?

Do you mean that India has lower numbers of guns than required ?

Guns by themselves have no independant tasks.
 

sgarg

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Indian army seems to have for 1.3 million men (source: Equipment of the Indian Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Around 400 155mm towed pieces (M-46 and Bofors)
900 M-46 130mm towed
550 D-30 122mm howitzer
1700 IFG and LFG towed
80 Self propelled M-46 130mm
292 MLRS

I am not counting the mortars and field guns of smaller caliber. There may be some equipment in reserve but let us keep it out of picture for this discussion.
So the above add up to around 3900 pieces.

Russian Army (766,000 men) (Ref: List of equipment of the Russian Ground Forces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1725 towed pieces
2350 self-propelled pieces
1391 MLRS

Russian artillery totals to 5466 pieces.

I can post China or USA numbers but the disparity is similar. Even Pakistan does better than India on number of field guns.
 

sgarg

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Pakistan for 550,000 men army:

415 self-propelled pieces
2078 towed pieces
134 MLRS

So 2600 pieces for an army less than half of India's size.

I am curious as both India and Pakistan learnt from the British. India also learnt from The Soviets who placed huge emphasis on artillery.

This is the reason I am surprised at the low levels of artillery holding of Indian army.
 

Hari Sud

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Now the requirement has changed in the matter of artillery.

There is an absolute need of a self propelled 155/52 artillery in any army which has Cold Start type of concept of war. It is a strategic weapon simply aimed at enemy's heart. India lacks that. It has to be added sooner than later on top of towed artillery which is being procured now.

Little Pakistan has managed scrounge around and has added about 120 of 155/52 guns to their arsenal. Their benefactor gave them disused M109 guns lying in a disused state in America. US also allowed them to buy spares to recondition these into a better grade than these were originally made. I believe these were 1991 Gulf War Surplus; in a poor sate of use. Pakistanis paid peanuts for their purchase. A Lottery for Pakistan.

Chinese field guns are too heavy and are of a lower quality; they are no serious threat in the mountains of Ladakh or Arunachal Pradesh. If India is able to procure M777 from US for use by our mountain divisions then Chinese are outgunned right away. Alternative, somebody may make these Titanium barrels in India; that will be quite alright.

So it boils down to make towed field guns locally like Dhanush or others. Make these in hundreds and take 5-7 years. On top of these, add the Denel/TATA or L&T type self propelled gun. Add one of this in hundreds to the army's inventory. Do not take longer than 5-7 years.

Now the army has power to shred any enemy.

Do not waste time and money to acquire multicaliber rifles. Save it to add artillery. The DRDO version is good enough. All it need is to be made into hundreds, handed over to army, figure out all the bugs and remedy them. Now ou have a multicaliber rifle at a third the price. If you give this Multical rifle to the Indian Army procurement office with Quality requirements tailor made to imported stuff, then they would prove infinite number of defects. The DRDO rifle will be lost in the shuffle.

Modi's one of the task is to send these arms merchants packing. Indian military requirements like Chinese are to be made in India. Retire all those who write GQSR to suit the imported stuff.
 

sgarg

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My question is about current equipment and the strategy of Indian Army that is behind the current numbers.

The 155-52 caliber was supposed to be a replacement for M-46 and D-30 and IFG etc, as Army wanted to standardize. So purchase of 155mm guns does not increase active inventory.

To a non-military man like me, who has gained the knowledge of military through reading books like "The art of war", the Indian army seems lacking in many aspects.
 

Bhadra

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@sgarg

The need of a weapon system emenates to fufill requirements of a doctrine.


The doctrine an Army follows depends on a lot of factors and terrain is the fundamental factor.

However, DESTRUCTION OF ENEMY BY ATTRITION still contnues to be at the core of thinking on war fighting.

Requirement of the quantity of explosive ( they call it shit) to be put on the target / objective continues to be one of the basic requirement.

That is achived by Artillary, Air Support, Naval Gun support, Missiles and finally by infantry by capturing the objective by carrying out physical destruction and putting their foot over the objective.

There are laid down parameters for knowing or calculating how much fire power is required (number of rounds required to neutralise or partially destroy an area in a given timeframe) . When one calculates that keeping in mind the rate of fire it results in number of guns required. The number of guns available for a mission (concentration) is the function of mobility of guns, logistics and ranges of the gun besides other factors

The degree of nutralisation or partial destruction vis a vis the amount of shit put on the target is also a function of terrain and target condition. Equal numbers of shell do not give the same results on mountains and plains or desrts, on canals or bunkers.

Now, coming on to requirements of the Guns - that is the function of mobility of the gun, logistcs to support the fire unit (essentially ammunition management), range of the guns and above all the likely pattern of military operations of own and the enemy.

In defensive operations lesser number of Guns would do the job whereas for offensive operations large number of Guns would be required given equal area.

In the case of NATO, USA, UK or USSR / Russia - their operational doctrines are essentially offensive in nature. Secondly the terrain is plains and vastly stretched - meaning that the battles could be fought at many number of points simulteniously over land , sea and air or through these mediums. The warfare is swift, quick and mobile in nature wherein guarnteed firepower would be required in larger number and Artillary Guns would be less flexible to switcth targets and roles due to intensity and multiplicity of operation. That calls for larger number of guns to support the operations.

Russian belive in "mass" as fundamental factor in deciding the outcome of battle - hence massed artillary is their main Arms of battle. Therefore, to fulfill objectives of their warfighting doctrine- they have very large numbers of guns

Pakistan has only one enemy and that is India - mostly having plains and deserts on the borders where each country would like to settle the scores as mountains are difficult, trecherious, slow and demand heavy attrition. They also primarily belive in offensive operation. They have inferior guns and that takes away flexibility of fire support . The deficincies are filled in by having larger numbers of guns.

Indian docrtines so far have been defensive and outright defensive - preserve the territories . Little bit of offensive had been directed to regain defensive balance. Indian nation, goverments and Army have no plans to invade and capture Tibet, Sindh or Pakistani Punjab. They only wish to preserve territorial integrity. Hence in their calculaion, their requirement of numbers of guns is less.

However, the current thinking is to have guns with bigger caliber and larger ranges so that more shit is placed on the target by lesser number of guns.

In nutshell this is the explaination. Could be a little crude but the massive deatials of theory of warfare can not be included here.


However, the attriation theory have received very big jolts in Vietnam, Iraq Wars, in Afghanistan and many other places where tons of shit put on the areas by the comined might of USA and wetsern powers by missiles, aircrafts, artillary and tanks, rifles, bombs, naval guns etc etc could not give their final objectives.

Due to terrain, economy of efforts and likely nature of military operations on and around our border areas, Indian Army believs is predoninantly using Infantry and / or Tanks as their major Arms to hold the ground as also to capture the ground as also to ensure that the captured areas lie under the feet of the victor. No amount of air/ artillary shell placed on the target in mountains or otherwise can capture it. Shell can neutralise or may be destroy it but can not capture it. Any thing destroyed can resurface but any thing captured would not. That is why final objective of the battle is either to destroy capabilities or to capture. Capture is also essentail to achive the former.

Have taliban been destroyed by that massive amount of shit put on them ?? Can Drones capture an area?

Hence Indian military thinking is neither redundant not outdated.
 
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Bhadra

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Requirement of 155/45 /52 etc Guns for IA emenates from following factors :

First - India Artillary desire to play a larger role in conventional war fighting and wash their hands off the support.

Second - Requirements of Multirole and multi tasking capability howtizers / guns cabale of all terrain usability, specially ability to be switched between plains and mountains.

Third - Larger caliber to enable artillary placing larger explosive on the atrget.

Fourth - requirement to destroy hardened targets on borders requiring larger calibre shells.

Fifth _ Longer ranges to support swift mobile operations.

Sixth - Deeper fires to enable artillary for deeper interdiction and deeper neutralisation.

Seventh- Standardised global and international caliber to ensure avialablity of supplies from many sources.

And the answer to all the above is 155/52 mounted. towed or SP.
 
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sgarg

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Well I think warfare in Indian context is no different than warfare elsewhere.

India's neighbors continue to increase their military potential at a very fast pace. The past is not a reliable guide to the future. The future wars will be more deadly.

I still have pictures of Kargil war fresh in my mind - pictures of large caliber guns - Bofors, M-46, IFG pounding at enemy positions. There was one clear takeaway - you need a large number of guns as just a localized operations in Kargil needed more than a hundred.

If there is a bigger war, specially if operations are in both east and west, the need for guns (and attrition replacements) could be very high.

You have to plan for many scenarios including when things do not go very well for you. You need a great number of reserves.

I remember that IA had some 40 divisions 10 years back. Now three more are raised for the new corps at Panagarh.

Even if we take a number of 150 large caliber guns per division, the number comes to about 6500.

I heard that an order for 150 LFG has been given for the new mountain corps at Panagarh. My first thought was that this number looks too small.

One thing is clear to me, that is, if even there is another attack by the Chinese, the attack will come on a very broad front. And just like 1962, India will be caught with pants down. As Indian army refuses to procure stuff that can actually stop the enemy.

Even in mountains, you will need a lot of howitzers. You may need lighter ones but the number has to be quite large considering very long borders that India has.
 

blueblood

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Even if we take a number of 150 large caliber guns per division, the number comes to about 6500.
How did you come up with this figure?

First, your figure of 150 guns don't fit into any kind of artillery formation IA uses i.e. regiments, brigades and divisions. Every regiment has 3 batteries of 6 guns each and an artillery brigade consists of three regiments. AFAIK, IA do not treat batteries as independent units.

Second, what kind of division would need that many guns for support? I could be wrong but a division is usually supported by a single brigade and if the need arises an independent brigade can attached by the corps HQ to the division. You are proposing that we should triple the amount of artillery for no good reason.

@Ray, please throw some light on this matter.
 
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sgarg

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Times have changed. Now you will not see waves of Chinese infantrymen. You will see attack by heavy weapons from standoff ranges.

The only friend you have is your artillery.

There is massive proliferation of heavy weapons which can only be countered by artillery barrages.

Even if you take one brigade per division, each brigade with nine batteries, you are counting 54 guns. What about reserves. If you are fighting the Chinese, you must look at your reserves very carefully. You need to prepare for heavy attrition.

My estimate is also based on one brigade per division. However I took 10 soldiers per gun, and 1500 fighting men per brigade.
 
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Kunal Biswas

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Long range artillery is needed at the moment, During Kargil only vintage M-46 & BM-21 could make to 38kms as counter battery ..

Induction of Dhanush would change all that with high precision even in longer ranges ..
 

sgarg

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Long range artillery is needed at the moment, During Kargil only vintage M-46 & BM-21 could make to 38kms as counter battery ..

Induction of Dhanush would change all that with high precision even in longer ranges ..
I thought M-46 range is 27 km and BM-21 is max 20/21 km.

M-46 with base bleed ammo is given as 38 km. However accuracy of base bleed round is an issue.

Now Pinaka should take care of this.
 

sgarg

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This is good news that M-46 is capable of firing at 38 km with Indian ammo. This does change the picture positively.

We sure need induction of both towed and self propelled guns in good numbers. The artillery should always be locally built. It makes no sense to import guns.

The problem that remains is attitude of Indian Army. Vested interests in the army continue to stonewall local purchases.

Bharat Forge has come out with light 105mm guns that Army needs urgently. Bharat Forge is the right company to build 155mm towed gun as well, and they have the industrial capacity to build these guns.

Tata must be used to build truck mounted guns. A lot of Telco's capacity is idling right now and they have spare capacity. They can build truck mounted guns very quickly.

The problem in this country is decision making.

OFB can build tracked metamorphosis and Dhanush but orders must be placed on Bharat Forge and Tatas also.

The government should find a way to induct 400-500 self propelled and 700-800 towed guns in the next four years.
 

sgarg

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I think we also need increase in MLRS numbers. More Pinaka launchers are needed. Pinaka with 60km range is sufficient for our need.

I have not seen any move to order additional Pinaka units. I feel Army should order more as BM-27 rockets are very expensive and we cannot use a lot of these rockets.

The Chinese are very heavy on rocket artillery. So if a war breaks out, expect heavy bombardment of Indian positions.
 

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