Indian Army Artillery

[W.G.Ewald]

Well because the cost of maintaining a truck along with a gun is prohibitively high, if you consider that in most cases towed guns can do the job just as well.

Do you mean maintenance of vehicle used as chassis?

 

[Bhadra]

Bhadra, Kargil showed the effectiveness of tube artillery. What else will you use in mountains where most of the battles are likely to be fought.

You need to keep the enemy away from your infrastructure. Pakistan's strategy is based on large number of small units attacking on a wide front. They will make use of jehadis in large numbers. They are increasing their heavy artillery to provide cover to these attackers.

India keeps on testing missiles and there is a lot of encouraging news, but the practical situation still demands more guns.

The Sikhs vs British situation is different from India's situation today. This situation is not applicable to modern battlefield.

The enemy makes plans based on your shortcomings. You have to remember that.

Kargil showed effectiveness of 155 mm Howitzers (not all tube artillery).

The reason or main points were :

Semi prepared defences of Pak Army
Ability of High angle fire by Howitzer
Heavy and effective shells which delivered more explosives on the targets.

Considering all aspects - such as enhanced range, heavier shells and variety of ammunition and ability to fire in plains and mountains - my guess is that Indian Army would go in for 155 howitzers in future

More of towed variety and lass of Truck mounted, limited numbers of SP guns ... The problem with towed Guns is mobility otherwise it is more economical because the trucks can otherwise be used for other roles.

 

[pmaitra]

Kargil showed effectiveness of 155 mm Howitzers (not all tube artillery).

The reason or main points were :

Semi prepared defences of Pak Army
Ability of High angle fire by Howitzer
Heavy and effective shells which delivered more explosives on the targets.

Considering all aspects - such as enhanced range, heavier shells and variety of ammunition and ability to fire in plains and mountains - my guess is that Indian Army would go in for 155 howitzers in future

More of towed variety and lass of Truck mounted, limited numbers of SP guns ... The problem with towed Guns is mobility otherwise it is more economical because the trucks can otherwise be used for other roles.

@Bhadra ji,

Howitzers have had a high angle of fire for a reasonably long time. Nothing new in it.

Spoiler

You are correct about the gist of your post.

India needs to invest in rocket propelled artillery, with intelligent munitions, like the sensor-fused munitions which I hear India will be getting from the US.

The stupendous effectiveness of artillery by the pro-Russia militia in Ukraine leaves no doubt in my mind that they might have gotten their hands on armour seeking and other types of intelligent munitions. If India can get those sensor-fused munitions, we can bust all Pakistani armour, if not their bunkers, with less, but effective shots, and quickly demoralize the enemy.

Range will always be an issue with non-rocket-propelled artillery.

 

[bengalraider]

Do you mean maintenance of vehicle used as chassis?

Yes,it simply is more economical to tow a gun, the tow vehicle can also be used for a wide number of other jobs, that a vehicle with a mounted gun cannot be used for.

 

[Bhadra]

@Bhadra ji,

Howitzers have had a high angle of fire for a reasonably long time. Nothing new in it.

Spoiler

You are correct about the gist of your post.

India needs to invest in rocket propelled artillery, with intelligent munitions, like the sensor-fused munitions which I hear India will be getting from the US.

The stupendous effectiveness of artillery by the pro-Russia militia in Ukraine leaves no doubt in my mind that they might have gotten their hands on armour seeking and other types of intelligent munitions. If India can get those sensor-fused munitions, we can bust all Pakistani armour, if not their bunkers, with less, but effective shots, and quickly demoralize the enemy.

Range will always be an issue with non-rocket-propelled artillery.

I meant the same thing - howitzers can fire in high angle - means they can fire in mountains.

About rocket artillery - it has its own role and characteristics. It would really be used for defenses.

It has large dispersion and is more inaccurate - hence used as area weapon only.

Due to ease of detection - it is fired in salvos and then it has to move away quickly - therefore, it is not a source of continued fire assaults or support.

Due to large dispersion and heavy shells, it can not be used for fire support.

It is more costly - may be at least hundred times more specially with smart fuses you are referring to.

Then targets it would hit in depth - say 40 - 70 km would have the capacity to resurface / regenerate to be effective on the battle line in crucial moments. Hence , neutralization of such target really is not effective for the ongoing battles lines.

They are good to used for deep fires, echeloned battles , covering larger areas and interdictions.

Rocket artillery would rarely be used on front lines /battle lines.

So what is use having them in large numbers ??


Always remember destruction of a target by artillery by itself is almost impossible. No amount of firepower can destroy a target hundred percent. Afghanistan is an example where even the cruise missiles could not achieve that objective. Even those daissy cutters could not kill the rats... or take them out of rat holes.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Gives great insight into the implication of SPGH ( Self propelled Mounted Assault / field / AT gun and Howitzers ) with respect to supporting Infantry, In Indian context it is yet to be implemented in large scale specially in Strike crops ..

 

[pmaitra]

I meant the same thing - howitzers can fire in high angle - means they can fire in mountains.

About rocket artillery - it has its own role and characteristics. It would really be used for defenses.

It has large dispersion and is more inaccurate - hence used as area weapon only.

Due to ease of detection - it is fired in salvos and then it has to move away quickly - therefore, it is not a source of continued fire assaults or support.

Due to large dispersion and heavy shells, it can not be used for fire support.

It is more costly - may be at least hundred times more specially with smart fuses you are referring to.

Then targets it would hit in depth - say 40 - 70 km would have the capacity to resurface / regenerate to be effective on the battle line in crucial moments. Hence , neutralization of such target really is not effective for the ongoing battles lines.

They are good to used for deep fires, echeloned battles , covering larger areas and interdictions.

Rocket artillery would rarely be used on front lines /battle lines.

So what is use having them in large numbers ??


Always remember destruction of a target by artillery by itself is almost impossible. No amount of firepower can destroy a target hundred percent. Afghanistan is an example where even the cruise missiles could not achieve that objective. Even those daissy cutters could not kill the rats... or take them out of rat holes.

I think you misunderstood the "fuses" part.

It is not about fuses, but about sensors that are fused with the munition. In other words, there are sensors that are attached to the munition. That is what makes them expensive, but also very accurate.

 

[Bhadra]

I think you misunderstood the "fuses" part.

It is not about fuses, but about sensors that are fused with the munition. In other words, there are sensors that are attached to the munition. That is what makes them expensive, but also very accurate.

Fine, leave aside my confusion ...

Tell me what a fuze is if not a censor ... ??????

Even if mechanical, such as percussion, it is censor only which guides and actuates the explosive.

Electronic or radio or thermal or millimetric fuze also does the same..

Censors are with the fuzes and not with explosive ... or if with explosive those sensors are called fuzes ...

Ha Ha Ha Ha ......

 

[pmaitra]

Fine, leave aside my confusion ...

Tell me what a fuze is if not a censor ... ??????

Even if mechanical, such as percussion, it is censor only which guides and actuates the explosive.

Electronic or radio or thermal or millimetric fuze also does the same..

Censors are with the fuzes and not with explosive ... or if with explosive those sensors are called fuzes ...

Ha Ha Ha Ha ......

My response:

[WITH OBJECT] Join or blend to form a single entity:
'intermarriage had fused the families into a large unit'

Read more at Oxford Dictionary: fuse: definition of fuse in Oxford dictionary (British & World English) (US)

P.S.: Nothing to do with "percussion."

 

[Ripples]

From an impartial point of view if we compare Pakistani artillery with that of Indian army then do you think PA has any clear edge as of today? If yes then why and if no please explain the reason. Thanks a lot @Kunal Biswas

 

[Kunal Biswas]

PA or even PLA, Both are step behind Indian towed arty, Specially PLA over mountains and PA almost all over western front, Regarding SPGH both PA and PLA are ahead ..

In coming days, IA will be more effective as Dhanush will come along ..

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

High Angle of fire M77A2 howitzer

 

[sgarg]

PA or even PLA, Both are step behind Indian towed arty, Specially PLA over mountains and PA almost all over western front, Regarding SPGH both PA and PLA are ahead ..

In coming days, IA will be more effective as Dhanush will come along ..

You should not take Kargil as a template for future war. Kargil happened with Clinton as US President. Pakistan did not have US support.

The next war will be all out war. The reasons are many - first is serious fractures in Pakistani society as Jehadi poison increases its effect. Pakistan has reached a stage where it is dying from inside.
So it needs a rallying point.

Second is USA itself is under pressure and using its military increasingly since second Gulf war. It's behavior may not be favourable to India.

The Kargil happened in a small area and did not spread to other locations. The next war will be a broad front war.

India does not have adequate artillery if India faces action on a broad front. Of course there are other means - specially airpower which can offset lack of artillery but that has its own complications.

There is no option but India needs 400-500 pieces of self-propelled guns, mostly truck mounted.

The towed are also insufficient considering most of India's guns are very old.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

My assessment was based on Quality not quantity ..

Though quantity is very much needed, Much of Indian Army as a system lack mech, Airborne and Artillery as well as AD elements in the amount its needed for effective counter offensive taking the both PLA and PA offensives together ..

Their is need for radical changes about how our Army should fight prepare for war and it must start from the base architecture of our system ..
@Ray Sir

The towed are also insufficient considering most of India's guns are very old.

 

[Bhadra]

My response:



Read more at Oxford Dictionary: fuse: definition of fuse in Oxford dictionary (British & World English) (US)

P.S.: Nothing to do with "percussion."

Start from here and then advanced - better to Janes

Fuze - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Ray]

My assessment was based on Quality not quantity ..


Though quantity is very much needed, Much of Indian Army as a system lack mech, Airborne and Artillery as well as AD elements in the amount its needed for effective counter offensive taking the both PLA and PA offensives together ..

Their is need for radical changes about how our Army should fight prepare for war and it must start from the base architecture of our system ..
@Ray Sir

What changes do you suggests?

Please start a thread.

Thanks.

 

[Bhadra]

The next war will be all out war.

What do you mean by that. All out war or total war starts with nuclear strikes !!

The Kargil happened in a small area and did not spread to other locations. The next war will be a broad front war.

What is the incentive for any one side or both sides to go across the IB ? Unless you mean that Pakistan Army wishes to reach Red Fort.

India does not have adequate artillery if India faces action on a broad front.

How do you know that. How much is adequate?

Of course there are other means - specially airpower which can offset lack of artillery but that has its own complications.

Air power, missiles or other methods of fire power does not offset artillery.

There is no option but India needs 400-500 pieces of self-propelled guns, mostly truck mounted.

Numbers have their own logic. with 400-500 SP guns one would need 10 - 12 Armored divisions. !! There is no space on Indo Pak border for 12 Armored divisions!!
Unless you visualize that those 500 guns would march towards Lahore on their own and then bust the hell out of Lahore.

The towed are also insufficient considering most of India's guns are very old.

Number wise India has sufficient artillery. Very old means what ?

 

[sgarg]

What do you mean by that. All out war or total war starts with nuclear strikes !!
A. I did not say anything about "nuclear strikes". That is your take.
My understanding is that Pakistan fought in 1947 and 1965 to gain Kashmir under Indian control. It had no clear objective in 1971 except put pressure on India. It fought again in 1999 to gain Kashmir.
So Pakistan has already fought three wars with India over Kashmir (and a long covert war since eighties); one when both countries were "overtly" nuclear. The last war did not go nuclear.
The Muslim armies are on the march again. It will not take long before the rise reaches India's borders.

What is the incentive for any one side or both sides to go across the IB ? Unless you mean that Pakistan Army wishes to reach Red Fort.
A. What was the incentive in the last war or the war before that??

How do you know that. How much is adequate?
A. Why do you want to know that?
Public sources say that India acquired its artillery last time in eighties.
I do not know if you know anything about materials but all metal objects are subject to creep and rust.

Numbers have their own logic. with 400-500 SP guns one would need 10 - 12 Armored divisions. !! There is no space on Indo Pak border for 12 Armored divisions!!
A. Why RAPID divisions can't use SP artillery? Self propelled logic is for rapid redeployment. It is not necessarily for armoured.

Unless you visualize that those 500 guns would march towards Lahore on their own and then bust the hell out of Lahore.
A. Who knows?

Number wise India has sufficient artillery. Very old means what ?

A. That does not seem right looking at other armies in Asia. Can you offer a comparison.
The minimum age of our guns is around 30 years. That is old.

 

[Bhadra]

@sgarg

1. Understanding all out war is not my take ! know the meaning of the term used.
2. We are talking about Indian Army artillery and not Muslim Armies.
3. Crossing of the IB :
1948 – IB not crossed.
1965 – IB crossed in order to enlarge focus of the war and Pakistan coveyed the massege that War in Kashmir could be taken as war between two country all over.
1971 – No major efforts to cross IB. Pakistan's doctrine that "Defense of East lies in West " proved wrong as they could not launch major operations in the West.
1999 – war kept limited by both sides.
4. Capturing territory across the borders with different and hostile population and economically non strategic areas is not in the interest of both the sides.

5. RAPIDS – Well I do not know anything about them but I heard that they have limited reach and their operation would lie within the range of deployed artillery say upto 20 – 30 km. Who has gone beyond that so far.

6. About employment of SP Artillery – they are not meant for so called rapid deployment but for matching mobility with mechanized forces so that they provide artillery support to them beyond and ahead the ranges of deployed guns so that there are no unnecessary pauses in operations and momentum of operations is maintained.

7. Otherwise SP artillery has many severe limitations as being very expensive in machine, maintenance and use, paucity of ammunition and being vulnerable.


8. Vintage of Guns ? till the time the guns fire and meet doctrinal requirements they are new when those are not then those are put at crossings"¦.

The gunners must know their requirements well.