Indian Army Artillery

[sgarg]

1. Bhadra, the extent of future war can not be predicted.

Any previous war cannot be a template for a future war.

A responsible country prepares for all contingencies.

2. Mechanized and RAPID are for manoeuvre warfare. The progress made depends on many things. One cannot put limits like 20-30 km.

India has far more rocket artillery now which in essence is SP artillery. Even towed guns can be used in manoeuvre warfare.

3. What severe limitations of SP guns? Can you elaborate??

4. All equipment suffer from rust and metal creep. Metal creep can cause sudden failure of equipment or can reduce accuracy. At least barrels of guns would require change or refurbishment. The laying mechanisms, hydraulics etc. suffer performance degradation with time.

 

[sgarg]

Most large armies buy major equipment regularly, not in spurts. There is a good reason for it. First it sustains manufacturing base. Second old equipment needs replacement.

Normally 20+ years old equipment is moved to reserves or goes for major overhauls.

Indian army's planning needs to change. The biggest change needs to be local sourcing. I am very emphatic that army can be supplied locally. Army's requirements are less technology intensive compared to the other two services.

 

[debasree]

Denel now back in action after lift imbergo the vheem project is alive again also I heard Lt tie up with Samsung for k9 thunder Aldo kalyani GRP make going inrods

 

[Bhadra]

1. Bhadra, the extent of future war can not be predicted.

Any previous war cannot be a template for a future war.

A responsible country prepares for all contingencies.

2. Mechanized and RAPID are for manoeuvre warfare. The progress made depends on many things. One cannot put limits like 20-30 km.

India has far more rocket artillery now which in essence is SP artillery. Even towed guns can be used in manoeuvre warfare.

3. What severe limitations of SP guns? Can you elaborate??

4. All equipment suffer from rust and metal creep. Metal creep can cause sudden failure of equipment or can reduce accuracy. At least barrels of guns would require change or refurbishment. The laying mechanisms, hydraulics etc. suffer performance degradation with time.

So you are a gunner ?? Hmmm..

You are also defying the argument that India needs 400-500 SP Guns.

I am all out for new guns and also that those should be manufactured in our country :

I quote "Society and Military Power : India and Its Armies" - which describes 18th century situation as :

"Qualitatively Indian steel was better than British steel, in part because of surface iron ore available in India was than that available in Europe, in part because Indian steel making techniques were superior, ... Indian brass was better than European brass and made better artillery barrels, ... Indian musket barrels were as good or better than British musket barrels because they were made of spiral rather than longitudinal welds. They were stronger and less likely to burst and so could take larger gunpowder charge and shoot as twice as European muskets .."

But our Armies still lost .... we always lost to inferior cultures and civilizations .. inferior technologies ?? Why ??

JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
Are you still falling into that trap ??

 

[Bhadra]

What severe limitations of SP guns? Can you elaborate??

http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc..._4DoBQ&usg=AFQjCNF8cr9vMFyLSFLc2WfEPiJ79iaNdg

Read the paper in detail

Advantages

Rapid occupation of position
Armor protection
Mobility

Disadvantages


Heavy Cost
Heavy weight - bogs down
Prime mover out—cannon out .. canon has no independent existance

Inflexible prime mover

Maintenance problems - sight out night out

Concealment - sitting ducks for air

Limited traverse

No capability for high angle fire

High fuel consumption - adding to logistics burdon

Limited Ammunition on tank or prime mover

closer contact with enemy and likelihood of being shot - more threat

 

[sgarg]

So you are a gunner ?? Hmmm..

You are also defying the argument that India needs 400-500 SP Guns.

I am all out for new guns and also that those should be manufactured in our country :

But our Armies still lost .... we always lost to inferior cultures and civilizations .. inferior technologies ?? Why ??

JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
Are you still falling into that trap ??

1. First of all, I am not a gunner. So if you are, you have already scored one point over me.
2. I have fairly extensive knowledge in engineering discipline. I can talk about many things from an engineering point of view, which a gunner may find difficult, even if it is about guns.
3. The 400-500 number is a rough figure (the basis is ratio of 1:3 between SP:towed).
4. Our armies lost due to the obvious reason - "Ideology". The nation is formed on ideology not on land. Once the country was divided in small kingdoms on the basis of land and saw frequent warfare among Hindu kings, the downfall was very obvious. The weapons are secondary, the ideology is first. The nation of Aryavrata was formed on Vedic knowledge and ideology. I am afraid even current India has no ideology and exists only as a land.

 

[sgarg]

The benefits and disadvantages of SP artillery you quoted are not necessarily applicable to the current state of technology.

The truck mounted artillery is very good option for mountainous areas as it provides as much mobility as the prime mover + quick engagement/disengagement.

The risk from air attack remains same for all types of guns.

Traverse/lack of high angle fire - Why?

High fuel consumption - true for tracked, why for wheeled?

Closer contact with enemy - Why again? What difference between towed and SP here. Both will be close to enemy.

Anyway the towed guns are good too, specially the ones with limited mobility like Bofors.

 

[Bhadra]

The benefits and disadvantages of SP artillery you quoted are not necessarily applicable to the current state of technology.

The truck mounted artillery is very good option for mountainous areas as it provides as much mobility as the prime mover + quick engagement/disengagement.

The risk from air attack remains same for all types of guns.

Traverse/lack of high angle fire - Why?

High fuel consumption - true for tracked, why for wheeled?

Closer contact with enemy - Why again? What difference between towed and SP here. Both will be close to enemy.

Anyway the towed guns are good too, specially the ones with limited mobility like Bofors.

No I am No gunner ... No musketeer !!

I gave a reference of a study conducted by US Army for their experiences over two world wars regarding SP Guns ..

Nothing of mine ... इदम न मम ...

You are welcome to disagree and as an engineer suggest ways to overcome those. You know the geography of India Pakistan borders. These SP guns will bog down in the first rice or irrigated field they encounter and that would the end of their sojourn.

One Pakistani tank regiment was immobile and sitting ducks in Khemakaran when Indians inundated that area.

Tanks also tend to bog down in the sands of Ruhi / Thar.

the Tracked version suggested by you may be thought of.

Lack of traverse is related to length of the gun..
Lack of high trajectory is related to it being mounted on the hull ..

Those are basics...

 

[sgarg]

1. Bhadra, the truck mounted gun is needed for quick movement over INDIAN territory. The issue of movement over Pakistani territory is a separate issue. The initial movement over Pakistani territory will be very slow and a lot of engineering support will be needed. But once this initial resistance is breached, the progress will be very fast. The fact is that India lacks IFVs and SP artillery to take advantage of a breakthrough.

2. A lot has changed since second world war. I suggest you refer a more recent study. The current guns (like the truck or track mounted Denel) are as good as the towed counterpart.

3. We should be thinking Punjab, not deserts of Rajasthan when talking about Pakistan. We need to threaten the heart of Pakistan successfully if India has to sleep at night.

4. The manufacturing capacity set up is a function of orders. No plants will be set up in absence of orders. The problem is India has defence production ONLY in State sector which is inefficient. The orders for private sector are suffering from Army's preference for imports.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Will be posting soon on about Kargil War, Specially about MBRL usage over Kargil War .. !

 

[Kunal Biswas]

If you don`t know nothing, Just stop posting ..

Been reading your post for sometime, According to you tank are waste of money too due to similar reason below and yes you got an infraction back their for trolling like this, funney how you talk about concealment, Like towed are not sitting ducks .. ?

Are you here for trolling ( Asking for infractions ? )

Disadvantages


Heavy Cost
Heavy weight - bogs down
Prime mover out—cannon out .. canon has no independent existence
Inflexible prime mover
Maintenance problems - sight out night out
Concealment - sitting ducks for air
Limited traverse
No capability for high angle fire
High fuel consumption - adding to logistics burden
Limited Ammunition on tank or prime mover
closer contact with enemy and likelihood of being shot - more threat

 

[bennedose]

1. Bhadra, the truck mounted gun is needed for quick movement over INDIAN territory. The issue of movement over Pakistani territory is a separate issue. The initial movement over Pakistani territory will be very slow and a lot of engineering support will be needed. But once this initial resistance is breached, the progress will be very fast. The fact is that India lacks IFVs and SP artillery to take advantage of a breakthrough.

2. A lot has changed since second world war

Indeed.

In fact the reason for mobility is not to negotiate terrain like tanks, but because enemy artillery radars can track a shell coming from a single artillery piece and accurately inform enemy artillery exactly where that shell came from so that the artillery piece can be knocked out by counter fire if it stays in one place.

The US supplied Pakistan with artillery locating radar long before India acquired it. For this reason artillery should be able to fire off 2-3 rounds in quick succession and then quickly move to some other place before a counter fire can come in.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Some thing interesting regarding this will be here for you and rest, Stay tuned for stories form Kargil War ..

In fact the reason for mobility is not to negotiate terrain like tanks, but because enemy artillery radars can track a shell coming from a single artillery piece and accurately inform enemy artillery exactly where that shell came from so that the artillery piece can be knocked out by counter fire if it stays in one place.

The US supplied Pakistan with artillery locating radar long before India acquired it. For this reason artillery should be able to fire off 2-3 rounds in quick succession and then quickly move to some other place before a counter fire can come in.

 

[Bhadra]

1. Bhadra, the truck mounted gun is needed for quick movement over INDIAN territory. The issue of movement over Pakistani territory is a separate issue. The initial movement over Pakistani territory will be very slow and a lot of engineering support will be needed. But once this initial resistance is breached, the progress will be very fast. The fact is that India lacks IFVs and SP artillery to take advantage of a breakthrough.

2. A lot has changed since second world war. I suggest you refer a more recent study. The current guns (like the truck or track mounted Denel) are as good as the towed counterpart.

3. We should be thinking Punjab, not deserts of Rajasthan when talking about Pakistan. We need to threaten the heart of Pakistan successfully if India has to sleep at night.

4. The manufacturing capacity set up is a function of orders. No plants will be set up in absence of orders. The problem is India has defence production ONLY in State sector which is inefficient. The orders for private sector are suffering from Army's preference for imports.

Sir, the truck mounted Gun can not be classically called SP Gun.

Trucks, generally have no matching mobility with tanks except for a limited distances. Though modern technology has made wheel based traction almost equivalent to tracks. Still, wheels are good for developed terrain and not for Ruhi (that desert as called by locals in Pakistan) I would advocated that for Punjab terrain but the obstacle systems there is so extensive that it would almost be no go.

Truck mounted guns would be of great value for mountains where except for the roads there is scarcity of deployment space. Quick deployment spaces exist on or along the roads. So while on move the artillery guns can quickly deploy, fire and move forward or backward for new deployment. I am with you in advocating truck mounted guns.

However, the same is not true for plains where even towed artillery can move cross country a bit and deploy and fire.

Ultimately, India needs a via media where their artillery can be equally used in mountains and plain with equal ease and comfort. India must desist from area specific systems to be flexible and economical as also to be effective everywhere.

Therefore truck mounted artillery is a solution ..

But do not call that SP system..

 

[Bhadra]

India should not go in for tank based SP Gun systems equivalent to the accelerated quantity of 400-500 which would be a dead loss to Indian artillery capability for 9/10 of her areas . India must find a good wheel mounted system which can support her Armour columns as also equally be capable of being utilises in mountains...

And that system is not going to be SP - as is commonly understood !!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Your logic is outstanding, Wheeled vehicles cannot match mobility of tracked vehicles off-road, And tracks are their for off road ..

You don`t have Simple understanding of IA, How many Wheeled APC / IFV are serving in IA ?, Infact IA phased out good old OT-64 in favor of BMP-1/2 as they could match the mobility of tanks over Indian terrain ..

A Artillery piece which moves on its own at great speed and distance should not be called Self propelled ? >> This is you understanding ..

Sir, the truck mounted Gun can not be classically called SP Gun.

But do not call that SP system..

India must find a good wheel mounted system which can support her Armour columns as also equally be capable of being utilises in mountains...

 

[Hari Sud]

Bhadra

Moderate your views and let Kunal do his job. Without a moderator and discipline, there will be nothing but chaos.

By the way just let us know your background in military matters, so that we know that there is experience behind whatever you say. I wish to develop a high respect for your views. Otherwise you become a "fanboy" like bulk of others including me, who has not seen the business end of a gun.

You do not react to this sane advice. Just think and let Kunal do his job.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Truck-mounted artillery. Seems there is Tata and this. @Bhadra

 

[Abhi9]

 

[sasi]

Saurav Jha @ SJha1618 2h
Why is DGQA taking its time to send its final report on the OFB Dhanush?