Indian Army Artillery

Ray

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@WGEwald,

While what you say is right, yet the advent of technologies, especially in military aviation, naval aviation, jet aircraft, and guided missiles, has replaced huge static weaponry.

In countries where coastal artillery has not been disbanded, I believe these forces have acquired amphibious capabilities. In littoral warfare, mobile coastal artillery armed with surface-to-surface missiles still can be used to deny the use of sea lanes.

In India we disbanded the coastal Artillery long back.
 
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sgarg

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The Bharat Forge 105mm light gun and 155mm towed gun and Tata made truck mounted Denel 155mm are practical solutions for the army. These are guns that the Army needs urgently.

The needless hunt abroad for such guns must be stopped. It is high time that Army releases orders for these guns.

This combined with OFB production of 105mm LFG and Dhanush (the total production of OFB is below 100 units per year) will finally solve Army's shortage of these artillery systems.

Missiles cannot replace tube artillery due to high cost of missiles and the complexity of supporting equipment. Tube artillery is simple and effective; and the best way to deliver large amount of fire.

Crash program to develop smart shells is needed alongside - shells with guidance that can find vehicles etc. and destroy them.
 

sgarg

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Another project urgently needed is an anti-mortar gun (radar guided) that can fire smart shells to destroy incoming mortar and artillery rounds.

We need to give such difficult projects to private industry and give them adequate funding.

Army needs to think out of the box if it wants to survive the modern battlefield. The old personnel-centric approach will not work.
 

Bhadra

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My interest in military started in USA in 1998, when I worked close to Wall Street and bought several books on military and wars (2nd world war).

I have no formal military background.

I have visited a large number of war related museums in the USA and Canada just to understand military affairs. It is a hobby.

The equipment that is hard to manufacture like large calibre guns, tanks, AFVs etc. must have reserves as wartime requirements can always be more than expected.

I think modern war is a test of a country's industrial capability. Generally a country with greater industrial capability will prevail.

It is not only the quality but also quantity that will decide the winner. The quantity must not be forgotten.

For example, you take two 155mm guns, one costs 5 million and is more accurate. Another costs 1 million and is less accurate. Surely 5 million gun is more desirable but both guns face equal risk in battlefield. The 5 million gun does not give you less attrition.

Artillery is meant to fire so why keep guns in reserve which do not fire ? What is the use of larger guns being as war wastage reserves as the physical destruction suffred by guns is very less. Reserves are meant for those components which are liable to be destroyed physically such as tanks and men and replacing them is necessary to maintain required momentom in battle.

So far the question of quality versus quantity is concerned , it is a big debate and countries follow doctrines based on their comparative strengths in capacity and capability - in technical excellence, industrial production, availability of raw material, economic strength and visualised war scenarios.

However, the RMA ( Revolution in Military Affairs) emphasises in quality to gain dominance in the battle fields. A precision guided bomb may be able to do a job which thousand of blind bombs may not be able to do. A precision high explosive Brahmos may be able to destroy a target which less precision nuclear Prithavi missile may not be able to achieve. Here the high cost of precision weapons thus is made up as compared to less precise but cheap systems.

On the other hand, if one has requirement of a very large numbers of system for prolonged operations over a very large frontages in order to tackle large targets, then there could be no choice but go in for cheaper and larger quantity systems. That is what was Soviet doctrine some times back.

India as a country requires both - Large quantity as also very good quality to deal with conventional level as also to tackle day to day sub conventional objectives.

In Artllary, India requires -

better explosives,
better ranges
better metallurgy,
Guided shells
Modern Fuses
Mobility
better logistics
Air portability
Amphibiousness
Versatility in changing roles and terrain..


In nutshell India requires good field and Medium guns...
 
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ezsasa

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Another project urgently needed is an anti-mortar gun (radar guided) that can fire smart shells to destroy incoming mortar and artillery rounds.

We need to give such difficult projects to private industry and give them adequate funding.

Army needs to think out of the box if it wants to survive the modern battlefield. The old personnel-centric approach will not work.
Any thoughts on whether a terrestrial C-RAM system would fit the requirements. I keep thinking On this theory I find two problems one being obviously the cost and the other being usage of tracer ammunition to shoot down mortars. In a border scenario like ours it would difficult to keep the truck moving because you are giving out the location every time you fire.
 

sgarg

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Bhadra,

What you said is the PRIMARY reason army should be very happy buying from Bharat Forge and Tatas.

DRDO and OFB are not involved in these projects.

The army has to project requirement which can be met by private sector guns. Then acquisition process can start.

The government can place single vendor orders also in case of urgency. However Army has to trial the gun and show interest.
 

Hari Sud

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Can I change the discussion a bit.

Pakistan in last four years has managed to acquire M109 A2 and A5 artillery guns 155 mm from US surplus and defunct stock. In fact the guns date back to 1960 and were lying in a scap yard after Gulf War 1 in 1991. US let them have these cheap. Some of these were upgraded to A2 and others to A5. They have been refurbished. In all I believe they have about 125 of these. These self propelled guns are a great threat India in any armoured battle.

In addition Pakistan has Turkish Panter guns of towed 155/52 kind. These are brand new and delivered only a year or two back to Pakistan. About a hundred of these have been contracted by the Pakistani army.

Not knowing enough about Panter artillery, I wish to get other readers opinion as where do these guns stand as opposed to Bofor guns or its new incarnation Dhanush guns in performance.

Also does refurbished M109 has any comparison to proposed TATA - Denel self propelled or Bharat Forge Self propelled gun or Lasen Tubro gun.

Are new Indian guns going to be a step ahead of Pakistani acquisition or will stay comparable or lower.

If Pakistani artillery guns are going to have an edge, then India is at a disadvantage.

Please express your thoughts, Thanks.
 

LETHALFORCE

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Last time india placed an order for howitzers was bofors in 1987. We gave Pakistan plenty of time
To make acquisitions.
 

sgarg

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My thought is India has serious shortage of tube artillery.

India needs more than 1000 pieces urgently out of which 400 should be self propelled.

The number of MLRS and guided missiles is not much and it cannot replace tube artillery.

Tube artillery is a MUST.

Tata's truck mounted Denel gun is ideal for mountains. I am really surprised what stops army from buying this gun.

Tata and Bharat Forge together can build at least 200 guns per year. This is the number we are looking for.
 
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pmaitra

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My thought is India has serious shortage of tube artillery.

India needs more than 1000 pieces urgently out of which 400 should be self propelled.

The number of MLRS and guided missiles is not much and it cannot replace tube artillery.

Tube artillery is a MUST.

Tata's truck mounted Denel gun is ideal for mountains. I am really surprised what stops army from buying this gun.

Tata and Bharat Forge together can build at least 200 guns per year. This is the number we are looking for.
Denel was involved in alleged corruption.

I totally support GoI. Ideally, there should no room for corruption, but for operation reasons, GoI did not blacklist Rolls-Royce. When it comes to artillery, we can build fairly good pieces domestically. We should do that. We have some good prototypes already.
 

pmaitra

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My thought is India has serious shortage of tube artillery.

India needs more than 1000 pieces urgently out of which 400 should be self propelled.

The number of MLRS and guided missiles is not much and it cannot replace tube artillery.

Tube artillery is a MUST.

Tata's truck mounted Denel gun is ideal for mountains. I am really surprised what stops army from buying this gun.

Tata and Bharat Forge together can build at least 200 guns per year. This is the number we are looking for.
Denel was involved in alleged corruption.

I totally support GoI. Ideally, there should no room for corruption, but for operation reasons, GoI did not blacklist Rolls-Royce. When it comes to artillery, we can build fairly good pieces domestically. We should do that. We have some good prototypes already.
 

sgarg

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The corruption issue with Denel is history.
The Tata gun is based on Denel technology but built by Tata. Denel is not involved in the contract.

Buying from local vendors is better for army as any problems can be resolved faster. Local vendors cannot run away.
 

pmaitra

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The corruption issue with Denel is history.
The Tata gun is based on Denel technology but built by Tata. Denel is not involved in the contract.

Buying from local vendors is better for army as any problems can be resolved faster. Local vendors cannot run away.
I am not sure what the GoI regulations are. As long as there is no contract and royalty involved, I think one should go for it. The Denel gun is indeed good. Even the Bhim Howitzer is a good product, but that was also mothballed for the same corruption charges.
 

Bhadra

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My thought is India has serious shortage of tube artillery.

India needs more than 1000 pieces urgently out of which 400 should be self propelled.

The number of MLRS and guided missiles is not much and it cannot replace tube artillery.

Tube artillery is a MUST.

Tata's truck mounted Denel gun is ideal for mountains. I am really surprised what stops army from buying this gun.

Tata and Bharat Forge together can build at least 200 guns per year. This is the number we are looking for.
Your love for guns reminds me of history of Sikh Army which has more than 500 pieces of guns but still lost to the British.... well gun is essential but not every thing.

Evolution of Indian military: From Panipat to Festubert - The Times of India
 

sgarg

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Bhadra, Kargil showed the effectiveness of tube artillery. What else will you use in mountains where most of the battles are likely to be fought.

You need to keep the enemy away from your infrastructure. Pakistan's strategy is based on large number of small units attacking on a wide front. They will make use of jehadis in large numbers. They are increasing their heavy artillery to provide cover to these attackers.

India keeps on testing missiles and there is a lot of encouraging news, but the practical situation still demands more guns.

The Sikhs vs British situation is different from India's situation today. This situation is not applicable to modern battlefield.

The enemy makes plans based on your shortcomings. You have to remember that.
 
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pmaitra

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Bhadra, Kargil showed the effectiveness of tube artillery. What else will you use in mountains where most of the battles are likely to be fought.

You need to keep the enemy away from your infrastructure. Pakistan's strategy is based on large number of small units attacking on a wide front. They will make use of jehadis in large numbers. They are increasing their heavy artillery to provide cover to these attackers.

India keeps on testing missiles and there is a lot of encouraging news, but the practical situation still demands more guns.

The Sikhs vs British situation is different from India's situation today. This situation is not applicable to modern battlefield.

The enemy makes plans based on your shortcomings. You have to remember that.
What do you mean by tube artillery? MBRL? Like the BM-21 Grad? That did a good job during the softening of Tiger Hill. The best performer was the Bofors.

We also need mechanized mortar systems.



Source: http://www.defencetalk.com/advanced-mortar-system-for-germany-army-20114/
 

sgarg

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Tube artillery refers to both guns (howitzers and guns) and mortar systems as far as I know. This is compared to rocket artillery which can be MLRS, tactical ballistic missiles etc.
 

AshutoshNSingh

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Someone raised a point that instead of procuring towed artillery. Why doesn't IA procure all Caesar like wheeled howitzers? Can we discuss this here?
 

bengalraider

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Well because the cost of maintaining a truck along with a gun is prohibitively high, if you consider that in most cases towed guns can do the job just as well.
Also denel has been cleared of any wrongdoing, it is widely believed that the allegations on denel were done to scuttle the amr deal .
 

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