Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[pruthvi24]

1)Issue of FGFA has to be sorted quickly
2)trusting America blindly will not only sabotage our indigenous program but also will affect our relationship with Russia
3) for god sake focus screw f-16 lets get private players involved and go for tejas instead which will also help in our production capability and gives us more jobs
4)and i'm shocked that we have still not signed s-400 deal fully

 

[rohit b3]

AFAIK, they are eyeing the Predeator C "Avenger", not the Predator B "Reaper".


Bro, we need the FGFA and AMCA. All MiG-29, Mirage and Jaguar will be retired by 2030. So they will be replaced by a mix of more Rafael, FGFA and AMCA. Total ~260 aircraft. So maybe ~120 each of FGFA and AMCA and ~36 more Rafael?
All might not be inducted by 2032. Lets hope I am wrong about that.

Jaguar will start retirement from 2030 or so, and will take over 6-7 years to retire all 145. Logically speaking they should be retired against the FGFA .
Mig29 and Mirage2000 wont even start retirement before mid-late 2030s, AMCA is their replacement.

Mirage2000 were just upgraded and Mig29 and Jaguar upgrades are still going on right now to give them an additional life of 15-20 years.

 

[Scarface]

Good to see IAF making progress in the right direction for once.But I would still have them get the initially demanded 45 squadron stregnth for the two front scenario.

Frees up more space for Tejas,and besides the excuse that "India is not rich enough bear the Purchase and LCC of 54 more aircraft apart from the 700+" never sat well with me,

May be we couldn't in the 70s but now that doesn't cut it

 

[WolfPack86]

I was down with viral fever for past 2 weeks now slowly getting better. It is true that we getting additional 36 SU 30MKI of existing order.

 

[patriots]

another chopper crash. ..first we don't hv sufficent assets. and again these crashes

 

[WolfPack86]

RIP. Mi 17v5 helicopter is new helicopter how come it can be crashed

 

[square]

what are the chances that both gripen and f16 be selected....!!!

 

[Vijyes]

what are the chances that both gripen and f16 be selected....!!!

How can anyone know? It depends on the way they respond to RFI and ToT.

RIP. Mi 17v5 helicopter is new helicopter how come it can be crashed

There is no reason India can't manufacture these helicopters in make in India. Still India is about to buy about 50 new Mi17

 

[binayak95]

How can anyone know? It depends on the way they respond to RFI and ToT.



There is no reason India can't manufacture these helicopters in make in India. Still India is about to buy about 50 new Mi17

Russia will never give any country the rights to the Mi17 series. They are the most successful Russian chopper export and thus, one of the few remaining markets for the Russians. Everything else from AR to arty to tanks has been taken over by the Chinese, and the West dominates Naval platforms and fighter/transport aircraft.

About the SE fighter contest, I think the IAF wants the Gripen but will settle for the F-16 Blk 70. Why? Because it makes geopolitical sense for GoI to do so and more importantly, the US of A can easily block Gripen sales given major components (primarily the engine) is American.

All things considered, the F-16 Blk 72, even given its limitations, is a far better platform than the MiG-21 and MiG-27 it will replace and chances are the production of the F-16 in India may just be the boost we need to create a local Aerospace industry par excellence.

Besides, given the amount of power the MIC holds in the US, can we afford to make enemies of them, at this critical juncture of the Global power structure. Believe you me, we scorn them now, they'll make life difficult for us in the future everywhere, from joint exercises to cooperation at the UN, NSG and elsewhere.

It may sound like appeasement, but that's what we have been doing by buying 200 Ka-226s and 4 Gorshkov class frigates for almost a billion dollars apiece. And robust Russian support vis-a-vis China is far from guaranteed; especially now that they're conducting joint Air-Navy warfare drills with the Chinese and joint army drills with the Pakistanis.

 

[Vijyes]

Russia will never give any country the rights to the Mi17 series. They are the most successful Russian chopper export and thus, one of the few remaining markets for the Russians. Everything else from AR to arty to tanks has been taken over by the Chinese, and the West dominates Naval platforms and fighter/transport aircraft.

About the SE fighter contest, I think the IAF wants the Gripen but will settle for the F-16 Blk 70. Why? Because it makes geopolitical sense for GoI to do so and more importantly, the US of A can easily block Gripen sales given major components (primarily the engine) is American.

All things considered, the F-16 Blk 72, even given its limitations, is a far better platform than the MiG-21 and MiG-27 it will replace and chances are the production of the F-16 in India may just be the boost we need to create a local Aerospace industry par excellence.

Besides, given the amount of power the MIC holds in the US, can we afford to make enemies of them, at this critical juncture of the Global power structure. Believe you me, we scorn them now, they'll make life difficult for us in the future everywhere, from joint exercises to cooperation at the UN, NSG and elsewhere.

It may sound like appeasement, but that's what we have been doing by buying 200 Ka-226s and 4 Gorshkov class frigates for almost a billion dollars apiece. And robust Russian support vis-a-vis China is far from guaranteed; especially now that they're conducting joint Air-Navy warfare drills with the Chinese and joint army drills with the Pakistanis.

If it was arbitrary, tomorrow US may even ask us to buy its grass. Should we buy it in fear of USA making trouble in UN/NSG?

Indigenous production is the only thing that makes sense. It can be scaled up as and when required. If US wants India to buy their plane, they must offer some technology. Otherwise, buying F16 is as good as buying 10ton of scrap steel.

You are wanting India to buy just anything that US wants India to buy. That is arbitrary. Let US offer F35, then we will see

 

[binayak95]

If it was arbitrary, tomorrow US may even ask us to buy its grass. Should we buy it in fear of USA making trouble in UN/NSG?

Indigenous production is the only thing that makes sense. It can be scaled up as and when required. If US wants India to buy their plane, they must offer some technology. Otherwise, buying F16 is as good as buying 10ton of scrap steel.

You are wanting India to buy just anything that US wants India to buy. That is arbitrary. Let US offer F35, then we will see

You completely missed my point.

First of all, the F35 is a runaway freight train (in terms of costs). Don't go anywhere near it!!

Secondly, look at things from the US perspective. The MIC in the US lobbied hard to get Congress (and Trump) to agree to sell us the Guardian drones, and to agree to shift the F-16 production to India. This, without getting any concrete assurance us that we'll buy either! There are fears in the US MIC, that the Guardians are just a ploy for the GoI to show a semblance of a competition when the decision has already been made to procure Heron TP drones.

Similar fears exist for the SE competition. That it's just a diversion.

I'm not saying that we need to follow the US' directives. Hell no, all I'm saying is it would be prudent to buy the F-16 Blk 70 since there is an urgent requirement, and the Gripen is never going to take off - for reasons I've already stated. The F-16 on offer is NOT a bad plane, far from it. It's also cheaper than the Gripen, although the later has a better life-cycle cost. The deal can easily replace five squadrons worth of fighters in little to no time - and perhaps, the Tatas could be asked to help perfect and produce the Tejas mk2 afterwards.

 

[patriots]

The Mi-17 was on a sortie to para-drop kerosene
payloads to a forward post. Parachute of kerosene
jerrycan pallet got stuck in tail rotor.

 

[Adioz]

There is no reason India can't manufacture these helicopters in make in India. Still India is about to buy about 50 new Mi17

Even I hope that any more medium helicopters that Indian Armed Forces buy are HAL IMRH, but that thing is not even complete on the drawing board yet. What other choice do we have if we are facing a critical requirement?

If it was arbitrary, tomorrow US may even ask us to buy its grass. Should we buy it in fear of USA making trouble in UN/NSG?

Indigenous production is the only thing that makes sense. It can be scaled up as and when required. If US wants India to buy their plane, they must offer some technology. Otherwise, buying F16 is as good as buying 10ton of scrap steel.

You are wanting India to buy just anything that US wants India to buy. That is arbitrary. Let US offer F35, then we will see

Exactly, which is why we must put an end to this "foreign single engine fighter is the most urgent requirement for Air Force" crap that is being spun around by the air force. We can build Tejas Mk 2 in India. Apart from getting their single engine jets a couple of years late, I don't see any other problem with that plan.

I'm not saying that we need to follow the US' directives. Hell no, all I'm saying is it would be prudent to buy the F-16 Blk 70 since there is an urgent requirement, and the Gripen is never going to take off - for reasons I've already stated. The F-16 on offer is NOT a bad plane, far from it. It's also cheaper than the Gripen, although the later has a better life-cycle cost. The deal can easily replace five squadrons worth of fighters in little to no time - and perhaps, the Tatas could be asked to help perfect and produce the Tejas mk2 afterwards.

If F-16 or Gripen come to India, it will be the death knell for Tejas Mk2. F-16 has already outlasted its upgrade potential. Tejas is a new plane with significant upgrade capacity in it, even more so because it is an indigenous design and we do not have to beg permission from other countries before we upgrade it. So while Tejas might see a Mk-2* and a Mk-2**, F-16 will not (can not) be upgraded further, meaning it will be little more than a stop-gap today, and will be dead weight for the air force in a decade's time.

Russia will never give any country the rights to the Mi17 series. They are the most successful Russian chopper export and thus, one of the few remaining markets for the Russians. Everything else from AR to arty to tanks has been taken over by the Chinese, and the West dominates Naval platforms and fighter/transport aircraft.

About the SE fighter contest, I think the IAF wants the Gripen but will settle for the F-16 Blk 70. Why? Because it makes geopolitical sense for GoI to do so and more importantly, the US of A can easily block Gripen sales given major components (primarily the engine) is American.

All things considered, the F-16 Blk 72, even given its limitations, is a far better platform than the MiG-21 and MiG-27 it will replace and chances are the production of the F-16 in India may just be the boost we need to create a local Aerospace industry par excellence.

Besides, given the amount of power the MIC holds in the US, can we afford to make enemies of them, at this critical juncture of the Global power structure. Believe you me, we scorn them now, they'll make life difficult for us in the future everywhere, from joint exercises to cooperation at the UN, NSG and elsewhere.

It may sound like appeasement, but that's what we have been doing by buying 200 Ka-226s and 4 Gorshkov class frigates for almost a billion dollars apiece. And robust Russian support vis-a-vis China is far from guaranteed; especially now that they're conducting joint Air-Navy warfare drills with the Chinese and joint army drills with the Pakistanis.

Why did this global geopolitical rejig and its related uncertainty have to hit us at the most crucial juncture of our modernisation process?

And to top it all off, our domestic military industrial concept is out of phase with domestic requirement in a way that our military is churning out requirement for machines that we will be able to build domestically a few years later. Now we are stuck in a situation where we have to buy stuff from outside which will have an indigenous equivalent by the time these new weapons are inducted in our services. Cases in point: Single-Engine fighters and Tejas Mk2; S-400 and XR-SAM; Mi-17V5, Naval MRH and HAL IMRH; Ka-226 and LUH; M777 and Kalyani ULH; K-9 Vajra and Bhim-II (ATAGS mounted on Arjun chassis); SPYDER (sort of) and DRDO QRSAM; the list goes on.
And the defence ministers of our country are changing way too fast.

But the fact that defence modernisation is still moving ahead at a rapid pace inspite of all these problems displays how ineffective the previous government was.

 

[Vijyes]

You completely missed my point.

First of all, the F35 is a runaway freight train (in terms of costs). Don't go anywhere near it!!

Secondly, look at things from the US perspective. The MIC in the US lobbied hard to get Congress (and Trump) to agree to sell us the Guardian drones, and to agree to shift the F-16 production to India. This, without getting any concrete assurance us that we'll buy either! There are fears in the US MIC, that the Guardians are just a ploy for the GoI to show a semblance of a competition when the decision has already been made to procure Heron TP drones.

Similar fears exist for the SE competition. That it's just a diversion.

I'm not saying that we need to follow the US' directives. Hell no, all I'm saying is it would be prudent to buy the F-16 Blk 70 since there is an urgent requirement, and the Gripen is never going to take off - for reasons I've already stated. The F-16 on offer is NOT a bad plane, far from it. It's also cheaper than the Gripen, although the later has a better life-cycle cost. The deal can easily replace five squadrons worth of fighters in little to no time - and perhaps, the Tatas could be asked to help perfect and produce the Tejas mk2 afterwards.

First, why do you think 800 planes are enough for india (45 squadron x 18planes = 792 planes)? What kind of war preparedness is it to have just 800 planes? Show me 1 war which was won with 800 planes.

Now, how do you think India can buy 5000 planes? By making in India, right? Now, F16 is an excellent plane with modern upgrades. Air frames are based on physics and since physics don't change from 1080 to today, there is no problem with the airframe. The weapons can be fitted according to modern day needs. So, all in all it can be a great 4th generation fighter (not 4.5 as it lacks stealth airframe). But, the problem with it is in spare parts and attrition. In war, planes get destroyed and we will need to replace. How do you plan to do it?

Tejas comes there. We can make any number of Tejas as soon as we can make Kaveri Jet engine.

 

[binayak95]

Even I hope that any more medium helicopters that Indian Armed Forces buy are HAL IMRH, but that thing is not even complete on the drawing board yet. What other choice do we have if we are facing a critical requirement?

Exactly, which is why we must put an end to this "foreign single engine fighter is the most urgent requirement for Air Force" crap that is being spun around by the air force. We can build Tejas Mk 2 in India. Apart from getting their single engine jets a couple of years late, I don't see any other problem with that plan.

If F-16 or Gripen come to India, it will be the death knell for Tejas Mk2. F-16 has already outlasted its upgrade potential. Tejas is a new plane with significant upgrade capacity in it, even more so because it is an indigenous design and we do not have to beg permission from other countries before we upgrade it. So while Tejas might see a Mk-2* and a Mk-2**, F-16 will not (can not) be upgraded further, meaning it will be little more than a stop-gap today, and will be dead weight for the air force in a decade's time.



Why did this global geopolitical rejig and its related uncertainty had to hit us at the most crucial juncture of our modernisation process?

And to top it all off, our domestic military industrial concept is out of phase with domestic requirement in a way that our military is churning out requirement for machines that we will be able to build domestically a few years later. Now we are stuck in a situation where we have to buy stuff from outside which will have an indigenous equivalent by the time these new weapons are inducted in our services. Cases in point: Single-Engine fighters and Tejas Mk2; S-400 and XR-SAM; Mi-17V5, Naval MRH and HAL IMRH; Ka-226 and LUH; M777 and Kalyani ULH; K-9 Vajra and Bhim-II (ATAGS mounted on Arjun chassis); SPYDER (sort of) and DRDO QRSAM; the list goes on.
And the defence ministers of our country are changing way too fast.

But the fact that defence modernisation is still moving ahead at a rapid pace inspite of all these problems displays how ineffective the previous government was.

We are sort of caught between a hard place and a rock. On the one hand, locally built tech if finally catching upto global standards, but not quite ready for induction; on the other, there is an extremely urgent requirement for the same tech. So, if you ask me, buy the foreign maal in small numbers then go indeginous.

Who says, there is no urgent requirement for SE fighters?

IAF sortie rates are critically down. Most analysts tend to say 230+ Su-30MKIs!! What else do we need?

Lemme spell out some things - the aircraft availability rate has improved from before. More planes are flying and at greater sortie rates, true.

But they are JUST FLYING. Actual combat capable jets are far fewer in number! My source refused to give info, for obvious reasons. Pylons are nonfunctional, radars don't work, mission computers are failing - all sorts of stupid problems are plaguing the fleet. On top of all this, is the fact that the Su-30MKI is a fuel guzzler.

The IAF maintenance command in tandem with HAL is sorting these problems, but it'll take time. The only truly reliable aircraft are the Mirage 2000s, the Jaguars and the Tejas - but there are far too few Tejas' in Op service and it will take time to bring the numbers up.

In the meantime, FGFA is a huge mess that the IAF wants to abandon and the AMCA is yet to start. And the MiG-21s and 27s are even worse off in terms of availability, see the problem?

 

[binayak95]

First, why do you think 800 planes are enough for india (45 squadron x 18planes = 792 planes)? What kind of war preparedness is it to have just 800 planes? Show me 1 war which was won with 800 planes.

Now, how do you think India can buy 5000 planes? By making in India, right? Now, F16 is an excellent plane with modern upgrades. Air frames are based on physics and since physics don't change from 1080 to today, there is no problem with the airframe. The weapons can be fitted according to modern day needs. So, all in all it can be a great 4th generation fighter (not 4.5 as it lacks stealth airframe). But, the problem with it is in spare parts and attrition. In war, planes get destroyed and we will need to replace. How do you plan to do it?

Tejas comes there. We can make any number of Tejas as soon as we can make Kaveri Jet engine.

42 squadrons, not 45 but yes, I get your point about sheer numbers. And I completely agree that Tejas and future marks of Tejas/AMCA are the way forward. But can you honestly tell me that you feel comfortable about our current air strength. We do not have the number of planes that'll allow us to effectively conduct SEA missions in Pak or Tibet! Forget offensive strikes against supply bases and strategic targets inside these countries! So, the IAF in its present strength is GOOD enough to defend Indian skies, no more. We wont be able to hit air defenses nor support Army in CAS nor attack strategic targets inside enemy territories.

 

[Vijyes]

We are sort of caught between a hard place and a rock. On the one hand, locally built tech if finally catching upto global standards, but not quite ready for induction; on the other, there is an extremely urgent requirement for the same tech. So, if you ask me, buy the foreign maal in small numbers then go indeginous.

Who says, there is no urgent requirement for SE fighters?

IAF sortie rates are critically down. Most analysts tend to say 230+ Su-30MKIs!! What else do we need?

Lemme spell out some things - the aircraft availability rate has improved from before. More planes are flying and at greater sortie rates, true.

But they are JUST FLYING. Actual combat capable jets are far fewer in number! My source refused to give info, for obvious reasons. Pylons are nonfunctional, radars don't work, mission computers are failing - all sorts of stupid problems are plaguing the fleet. On top of all this, is the fact that the Su-30MKI is a fuel guzzler.

The IAF maintenance command in tandem with HAL is sorting these problems, but it'll take time. The only truly reliable aircraft are the Mirage 2000s, the Jaguars and the Tejas - but there are far too few Tejas' in Op service and it will take time to bring the numbers up.

In the meantime, FGFA is a huge mess that the IAF wants to abandon and the AMCA is yet to start. And the MiG-21s and 27s are even worse off in terms of availability, see the problem?

All we need is 1 lakh missile, SAMs, navy and ground force. There is no urgency for aircraft. As long as we can launch a barrage of nuclear strikes from land and sea and obliterate everything, there is no point in saying that there is urgent need for aircraft. Indigenous fighters or none is the way to go. Only ToT based import deals are meaningful

 

[binayak95]

All we need is 1 lakh missile, SAMs, navy and ground force. There is no urgency for aircraft. As long as we can launch a barrage of nuclear strikes from land and sea and obliterate everything, there is no point in saying that there is urgent need for aircraft. Indigenous fighters or none is the way to go. Only ToT based import deals are meaningful

Man, nuclear strikes?! you crazy, brother? I can't argue with this logic. I give up

 

[Vijyes]

Man, nuclear strikes?! you crazy, brother? I can't argue with this logic. I give up

What is the use of aircraft if there is no war? If there is war of that magnitude where airforce is used to bombard installations, why should you assume that it won't escalate to nuclear war?

Either there is war or there is no war. Period.

 

[Adioz]

We are sort of caught between a hard place and a rock. On the one hand, locally built tech if finally catching upto global standards, but not quite ready for induction; on the other, there is an extremely urgent requirement for the same tech. So, if you ask me, buy the foreign maal in small numbers then go indeginous.

Who says, there is no urgent requirement for SE fighters?

IAF sortie rates are critically down. Most analysts tend to say 230+ Su-30MKIs!! What else do we need?

Lemme spell out some things - the aircraft availability rate has improved from before. More planes are flying and at greater sortie rates, true.

But they are JUST FLYING. Actual combat capable jets are far fewer in number! My source refused to give info, for obvious reasons. Pylons are nonfunctional, radars don't work, mission computers are failing - all sorts of stupid problems are plaguing the fleet. On top of all this, is the fact that the Su-30MKI is a fuel guzzler.

The IAF maintenance command in tandem with HAL is sorting these problems, but it'll take time. The only truly reliable aircraft are the Mirage 2000s, the Jaguars and the Tejas - but there are far too few Tejas' in Op service and it will take time to bring the numbers up.

In the meantime, FGFA is a huge mess that the IAF wants to abandon and the AMCA is yet to start. And the MiG-21s and 27s are even worse off in terms of availability, see the problem?

I now see the problem, but the Air Force's solution is still not very convincing.
The questions I have remaining are:

1. Will these single-engine fighters have better availability than Rafael? I don't think so. Will these be inducted into service faster than Rafael? I don't know, the Rafael deal is already through and there are options for more. We do not have to negotiate a deal from scratch. Rafael will undoubtedly be more expensive, so we will have to buy these in lesser numbers than the F-16. But the balance strength can be made up by Tejas Mk2.
2. The Tejas Mk2 can be built at the same rate at which F-16 will be ~3 a month. The only catch here is that the Tejas Mk2 will begin production a couple of years after the F-16 iff the F-16 deal is struck in record time. This explains why the Air Force is showing urgency about this deal: if the F-16 deal is struck late, it will become a pointless decision, maybe even a counterproductive one. My question: Can the Air Force not make do with a couple of years delay in aircraft strength which will, at worse, lead to no offensive capability for a few more years?

Another angle to all this is the drastic increase in SAM strength and capability that we are likely to witness in the coming years. All this will, to some extent, offset weakness induced by a reduced fleet. Another angle is the induction of stand-off weapons such as the Brahmos-A and Brahmos NG.
The only reason why the Air Force logic seems sound to me is because Tejas Mk2 is not flying yet, and may get delayed. In such a scenario 5 years down the road, many would consider the F-16 deal a better option in hindsight.

Man, nuclear strikes?! you crazy, brother? I can't argue with this logic. I give up

Don't worry about that. @Vijyes has a problem understanding the concept of modern limited warfare. He still lives in the World War-2 era, where its either total war or no war. And if its total war, we need every machine in the thousands, the technological advancements of the last 72 years notwithstanding. He does not get modern diplomacy and its pillar which is modern military deterrence. Previous attempts at dispelling this state of mind have failed. See this:-

Show me 1 war which was won with 800 planes.

Now, how do you think India can buy 5000 planes?

What is the use of aircraft if there is no war? If there is war of that magnitude where airforce is used to bombard installations, why should you assume that it won't escalate to nuclear war?

Either there is war or there is no war. Period.

Its pointless trying to argue with this Brahmastra of his.