Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Adioz]

The F-35 has been on offer to us since 2011,back when we had no LSA and has been repeatedly been offered to us by Pentagon since then

http://thediplomat.com/2011/11/india-and-the-f-35/


The biggest bone of contention among CISMOA, LeMOA/LSA, BECA was the LeMOA which has been signed and the Americans have said India will get access to 99% U. S technology for purchase purposes (not to be confused with ToT), on par with their treaty allies so that's not the issue

The issue is we won't get make in India for the F-35 because it is already a globally manufactured plane, at best we'll get to manufacture some components for it, which won't sit well for the MoD who seems to be of the view that Make in India is more important than quality

And, the money, which the MoD seems to be very stingy with, if they find 85mil/unit Rafales too expensive there won't be any 100+mil units F35s

MoD is simply not considering it, it is definitely on offer to India

No. It is not make in India. Neither is it that 100+mil cost is an issue. FGFA will also be that expensive.

The main issue is that buying an F-35 means a world of change in the IAF's doctrine.

You see IAF emphasizes individual aircraft survivability. Hence, it requires maneuverable aircraft. (Does not mean the they don't work in teams)

F-35 (very aptly called the JSF) is meant for operating as a team and a team only. Its easy to shoot down a single F-35, but a flight of F-35s will pose an immense challenge simply because they are networked to an unprecedented extent. It works on a new doctrine that centers around information sharing and net-centrality on a whole new level. The critical enabler of this doctrine is the data link hardware in the F-35s, that has enormous bandwidth and resilience.

This data link is on a level where we cannot replicate it with an indigenous data link if we do buy these aircraft. Obviously we cannot use the American data links as they are not compatible with the ones we operate today. As a result, we cannot use the F-35 the way its meant to be used. If we try to use it our way, it will be a disaster (How? Read any one of the articles ripping apart the F-35 for lack of maneuverability and a small payload and range).

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that IAF is not networked. But it is not networked to the extent to which USAF or RAF is networked.

We are also facing the same problem with the P-8I Poseidon aircraft of the Navy.

Even if we were so networked, IAF would be wary of these aircraft as it is based on an entirely new and untested doctrine. USAF has a fail-safe (numbers). We do not.

 

[Scarface]

No. It is not make in India. Neither is it that 100+mil cost is an issue. FGFA will also be that expensive.

The main issue is that buying an F-35 means a world of change in the IAF's doctrine.

You see IAF emphasizes individual aircraft survivability. Hence, it requires maneuverable aircraft. (Does not mean the they don't work in teams)

F-35 (very aptly called the JSF) is meant for operating as a team and a team only. Its easy to shoot down a single F-35, but a flight of F-35s will pose an immense challenge simply because they are networked to an unprecedented extent. It works on a new doctrine that centers around information sharing and net-centrality on a whole new level. The critical enabler of this doctrine is the data link hardware in the F-35s, that has enormous bandwidth and resilience.

This data link is on a level where we cannot replicate it with an indigenous data link if we do buy these aircraft. Obviously we cannot use the American data links as they are not compatible with the ones we operate today. As a result, we cannot use the F-35 the way its meant to be used. If we try to use it our way, it will be a disaster (How? Read any one of the articles ripping apart the F-35 for lack of maneuverability and a small payload and range).

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that IAF is not networked. But it is not networked to the extent to which USAF or RAF is networked.

We are also facing the same problem with the P-8I Poseidon aircraft of the Navy.

Even if we were so networked, IAF would be wary of these aircraft as it is based on an entirely new and untested doctrine. USAF has a fail-safe (numbers). We do not.

The F-35 offers Super Hornet level of maneuverability, has the second highest payload in the Medium category of fighter aircraft and as far as survivability is concerned it's the most survivable aircraft IAF can get their hands on thanks to stealth.

I am not going to bother with reading articles from sources like warisboring, foxtrotalpha and Air Power Australia especially APA who have been discredited by actual pilots with experience with the aircraft

like this one
http://nettsteder.regjeringen.no/ka...-35-in-a-dogfight-what-have-i-learned-so-far/

(might need translation)

Of course we are getting off topic here, getting back


I hope the MoD seriously starts considering F-35 because it would probably be the best option if it actually were an option

 

[Adioz]

The F-35 offers Super Hornet level of maneuverability, has the second highest payload in the Medium category of fighter aircraft and as far as survivability is concerned it's the most survivable aircraft IAF can get their hands on thanks to stealth.

I am not going to bother with reading articles from sources like warisboring, foxtrotalpha and Air Power Australia especially APA who have been discredited by actual pilots with experience with the aircraft

like this one
http://nettsteder.regjeringen.no/ka...-35-in-a-dogfight-what-have-i-learned-so-far/

(might need translation)

Of course we are getting off topic here, getting back


I hope the MoD seriously starts considering F-35 because it would probably be the best option if it actually were an option

Stop dancing around the question.
How will we make F-35 fit IAF's doctrine?
What data link will we use?

 

[Mikesingh]

After 15 years they realized that can make do with a single engine foreign fighter.

And now considering the present acquisition policy and the bureaucratic ping-pong that would inevitably follow, we'll be lucky to have the first such aircraft by 2035-40.

....By which time I'll be dead and gone!

Jeeez!

 

[Scarface]

View attachment 10923
Stop dancing around the question.
How will we make F-35 fit IAF's doctrine?
What data link will we use?

We'll have to either pay the bills for lockheed to integrate AFnet into the F-35 like Israel has done

or sign CISMOA if necessary and ask the US for link 16 access

Depends on what the MoD/IAF wants

 

[sachin458377]

In my opinion F 16 Block 70 with TOT and make in India is going to be finalized. But the thing is better we finalize soon so that by 2019 our air force becomes invincible

 

[Filtercoffee]

In my opinion F 16 Block 70 with TOT and make in India is going to be finalized. But the thing is better we finalize soon so that by 2019 our air force becomes invincible

I think they will buy hornets.

 

[lcafanboy]

Would you by any of those fancy cars with keys in manufacturer's hand and only when he allows you can use it?

The answer is a big NO. That's precisely what Indian government is doing for F-35 and all the US fighters on offer. F-35 is highly networked (which includes satellites) and will not fly until and unless it authorized by US. So a big NO. It was on offer way back in 2011 but Indian government did the right thing.

 

[Filtercoffee]

Would you by any of those fancy cars with keys in manufacturer's hand and only when he allows you can use it?

The answer is a big NO. That's precisely what Indian government is doing for F-35 and all the US fighters on offer. F-35 is highly networked (which includes satellites) and will not fly until and unless it authorized by US. So a big NO. It was on offer way back in 2011 but Indian government did the right thing.

LCA has GE engines as well, I hope they don't disengage them when attacked

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

F-35 will be the game changer if we decide to buy them.Will make IAF the premier airforce in Asia.

 

[IndianHawk]

Better we should collaborate with Lockheed Martin to develop Amca as fast as we can.

 

[lcafanboy]

LCA has GE engines as well, I hope they don't disengage them when attacked

Engine is just one aspect of a fighter, what runs a fighter plane is its fly by wire software and other software like weapons engager and avionics. It is here the kill switches can be installed and not in engine. For engines we just need to store ample replacement engines but we can use the plane at our will.

That is the reason of demanding the source codes so we can integrate any weapon and ready the fighter for any mission, which uncle will not provide at all. We have source codes for SU30 MKI and partial access to Rafale is also demanded hence the delay and negotiations.

 

[Adioz]

We'll have to either pay the bills for lockheed to integrate AFnet into the F-35 like Israel has done

or sign CISMOA if necessary and ask the US for link 16 access

Depends on what the MoD/IAF wants

• We would be mad to open our military communications to Americans.
• No self-respecting superpower aspirant would submit itself to CISMOA.
• You did not answer my first question on the doctrinal change it would bring to the IAF. The new doctrine might fail.
• We are not networked to an extent that USAF is. This would have a negative bearing on the "Joint-ness" of JSF.
• All other air assets will have to be revamped so that they can work with this new concept.
• All new tactics will have to be developed.
• Pilots would need to be re-trained in certain aspects.
• EW and cybersecurity would need to be strengthened.
• We will need a much bigger constellation up in space, and a dedicated one at that.
• Do we have the wherewithal to make such a drastic change? (Especially in the face of our already behind-schedule modernization)
• Even if we do, what is the overarching need seeing as neither PRC nor PORKI is interested in using this new doctrine. Its not like we are being left behind. F-35 is not an invention like the machine gun.

F-35 will be the game changer if we decide to buy them.Will make IAF the premier airforce in Asia.

That could happen.....................OR things could go south.

F-35, as I said before is based on an entirely new and untested doctrine.
Read my previous post here:-

The main issue is that buying an F-35 means a world of change in the IAF's doctrine.

You see IAF emphasizes individual aircraft survivability. Hence, it requires maneuverable aircraft. (Does not mean the they don't work in teams)

F-35 (very aptly called the JSF) is meant for operating as a team and a team only. Its easy to shoot down a single F-35, but a flight of F-35s will pose an immense challenge simply because they are networked to an unprecedented extent. It works on a new doctrine that centers around information sharing and net-centrality on a whole new level. The critical enabler of this doctrine is the data link hardware in the F-35s, that has enormous bandwidth and resilience.

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that IAF is not networked. But it is not networked to the extent to which USAF or RAF is networked.

Even if we were so networked, IAF would be wary of these aircraft as it is based on an entirely new and untested doctrine. USAF has a fail-safe (numbers). We do not.

Notice that for USA, the only threat they face is to their position as the sole superpower in the world.
The threat we face is much more immediate and lethal.
If this doctrine fails, USA looses its preeminence on the global stage, we loose our heads.


Think about how there was resistance to a change in the concept of the use of Armour during the run-up to the second world war. The new doctrine pushed forward by B.H. Liddle Hart found no takers in Britain but the Germans applied those concepts instead and so Blitzkrieg was born.
This was an example where such a bold move worked.
Today we are asked a similar question. Do we take the plunge or not, its not our call to make. Only the IAF brass can answer this question, and whether they decide to buy the F-35 or not is how they'l answer it. So far, I think, they are wary of any such change.

 

[Filtercoffee]

Engine is just one aspect of a fighter, what runs a fighter plane is its fly by wire software and other software like weapons engager and avionics. It is here the kill switches can be installed and not in engine. For engines we just need to store ample replacement engines but we can use the plane at our will.

That is the reason of demanding the source codes so we can integrate any weapon and ready the fighter for any mission, which uncle will not provide at all. We have source codes for SU30 MKI and partial access to Rafale is also demanded hence the delay and negotiations.

We have all those, most of the ops are hidden. The engine tech is still not released. Your problem would be not having free reign for the personel?

 

[Tactical Frog]

F-35 will be the game changer if we decide to buy them.Will make IAF the premier airforce in Asia.

F35

F-35 will be the game changer if we decide to buy them.Will make IAF the premier airforce in Asia.

I have no idea why serious people can think for a second that US would offer F35 to India ? This plane is for Nato members, Israel and major Pacific US allied nations ( Australia, Japan). This is crazyness to think you can get F35 and FGFA, S 400, Akula class subs at the same time !

 

[Tactical Frog]

Better we should collaborate with Lockheed Martin to develop Amca as fast as we can.

That is even crazier than dreaming about F35.

 

[IndianHawk]

F35


I have no idea why serious people can think for a second that US would offer F35 to India ? This plane is for Nato members, Israel and major Pacific US allied nations ( Australia, Japan). This is crazyness to think you can get F35 and FGFA, S 400, Akula class subs at the same time !

We can literally get FGFA ,s400 and Akula class at the same time:biggrin2:
F35 we may or may not but perhaps we don't even want that

 

[ezsasa]

Just because pre-RFI is single engine, it probably does not mean heavy fighter like F-35. May be something lighter.

 

[IndianHawk]

That is even crazier than dreaming about F35.

Pray tell me why so??
Japan and south Korea both collaborated with LM to develop their fighter planes .
We collaborate with dassalt for lca in the beginning. We can certainly work with LM
Btw LM is the only firm which has first hand experience of designing and producing a 5th gen fighter.

 

[Filtercoffee]

Ideally it should be the Gripen and the Super Hornet just for ease of maintenance.