Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[WolfPack86]

Boeing Offers KC-46 Tanker To India

U.S. aviation giant Boeing has offered India its KC-46 mid-air refueling aircraft, shortly after the withdrawal of the USD 1 billion Indian Air Force (IAF) tender for six tankers in July. This was the second time a tender for the aircraft was canceled. The Airbus A330 MRTT (Multi Role Tanker Transport) had been selected both times, beating the Russian IL-78, an aircraft already operated by the IAF. The European aerospace and defense company had extended the validity of its bid several times before the tender was withdrawn.
Sources in the IAF told StratPost that Boeing has already sent in representatives to brief New Delhi on the aircraft. Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar was also apprised of the capabilities of the aircraft during his recent visit to the U.S.
Boeing’s KC-46 program was selected by the USAF for its USD 51 billion KC-X tanker requirement. The KC-46 is based on Boeing’s 767 commercial airliners.
Boeing has never participated in either of the two Indian tanker contests but had admitted the possibility that it might offer the aircraft to India, in the event it was finally selected for the U.S. tanker program. At this point, it remains unclear if the defense ministry and the IAF will issue a Request For Proposal (RFP) for the third time or if they will choose the government-to-government approach to purchasing the type without a tender.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/10/boeing-offers-kc-46-tanker-to-india.html

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

This will be a disaster.Another 10 year cycle has started.

 

[syncro]

There is one other "creative "option (but certainly less creative of the F-35)... buy all about 130 Eurofighters tranche 1 from UK, Germany, Italy and Spain... and the assembly line from Spain (the German and Spanish assembly lines were halted for lack of aircraft to be assembled).

3-4 years ago the Italian Typhoons were offered at about $ 50 millions to European NATO allies, I think that today buying all 130 T1 with a figure of around $ 40 (or less) millions is possible (about $ 5 billions).
Is possible to upgrade the T1 at the latest standard T3, but it is extremely expensive (about $50 milions each) and not convenient from an economic point of view for UK, Germany, Italy and Spain that use the T1 for training and for air policing (until exhausted airframe life).

For India, however, is different... in max two years from now, he would have 6-7 new fighter squadrons (decent A2A, basic A2G) and could begin to upgrade in India 10-15 EF-2000 T1 year.
I saw that the estimated cost to upgrade the nearly 200 MKI in service is about $ 8 billion (about 40 milions each) ... the cost of the T1 upgrade is about the same.
I see several possibilities of ToT (especially for the EJ 200 or EJ 220) and the ability to have full access until 2040 at the EF-2000 development.

If I am not mistaken India has now 33 squadrons ... in 2025 they decrease to 25 and the only increase on the paper would appear be from 11 to 15 squadrons of Su-30 MKIs and perhaps 80-120 LCA MK1s?

 

[ezsasa]

There is one other "creative "option (but certainly less creative of the F-35)... buy all about 130 Eurofighters tranche 1 from UK, Germany, Italy and Spain... and the assembly line from Spain (the German and Spanish assembly lines were halted for lack of aircraft to be assembled).

3-4 years ago the Italian Typhoons were offered at about $ 50 millions to European NATO allies, I think that today buying all 130 T1 with a figure of around $ 40 (or less) millions is possible (about $ 5 billions).
Is possible to upgrade the T1 at the latest standard T3, but it is extremely expensive (about $50 milions each) and not convenient from an economic point of view for UK, Germany, Italy and Spain that use the T1 for training and for air policing (until exhausted airframe life).

EF does not qualify because of the single engine tender condition...

 

[angeldude13]

What will be the impact of this on tejas?
Following tejas program since I was in 9th standard

 

[Scarface]

• We would be mad to open our military communications to Americans.
• No self-respecting superpower aspirant would submit itself to CISMOA.
• You did not answer my first question on the doctrinal change it would bring to the IAF. The new doctrine might fail.
• We are not networked to an extent that USAF is. This would have a negative bearing on the "Joint-ness" of JSF.
• All other air assets will have to be revamped so that they can work with this new concept.
• All new tactics will have to be developed.
• Pilots would need to be re-trained in certain aspects.
• EW and cybersecurity would need to be strengthened.
• We will need a much bigger constellation up in space, and a dedicated one at that.
• Do we have the wherewithal to make such a drastic change? (Especially in the face of our already behind-schedule modernization)
• Even if we do, what is the overarching need seeing as neither PRC nor PORKI is interested in using this new doctrine. Its not like we are being left behind. F-35 is not an invention like the machine gun.

That could happen.....................OR things could go south.

F-35, as I said before is based on an entirely new and untested doctrine.
Read my previous post here:-


Notice that for USA, the only threat they face is to their position as the sole superpower in the world.
The threat we face is much more immediate and lethal.
If this doctrine fails, USA looses its preeminence on the global stage, we loose our heads.


Think about how there was resistance to a change in the concept of the use of Armour during the run-up to the second world war. The new doctrine pushed forward by B.H. Liddle Hart found no takers in Britain but the Germans applied those concepts instead and so Blitzkrieg was born.
This was an example where such a bold move worked.
Today we are asked a similar question. Do we take the plunge or not, its not our call to make. Only the IAF brass can answer this question, and whether they decide to buy the F-35 or not is how they'l answer it. So far, I think, they are wary of any such change.

You never really asked anything about doctrinal change,and neither would F-35 call for one,not anymore than Rafales

We aren't giving them access to listen to our comms,this boogeyman that asking US to integrate our datalink into the F35 would compromise our communications has no basis,if that was the case then the French already have compromised it to their US allies already

No self respecting superpower would purchase strategically important tech like fighter aircraft from a foreign power,we aren't there yet,especially if we signed just as controversial LSA/LEMoA,besides we already have a country specific modification of CISMOA called COMCASA in the pipelines with the US.

The "Joint" in the JSF is to signify the Joint development of the project,it has nothing to do with the aircraft's role or capabilities
Indeed we aren't as networked as the USAF but neither is any other Air Force that's buying them,the datalink isn't the selling point of the F-35,it's stealth and it has always been stealth,that is the defining characteristic of the 5th gen aircraft

Even the F22 isn't as networked as the F35 but countries would kill to get their hands on it and if offered would discard the F35 without second thoughts.F35 isn't a dud without it's datalink

Air assets may require revamping if we go with integrating link 16,not much if we Integrate AFnet into the F35

All the pilot training and revamping tactics will have to be done with any new type of aircraft purchased,even Rafale requires all that,so will super hornet or any other non-russian aircraft,all of that can be included in the deal , similiar to the one which Australia has.

Indian standards for Cyber security would require no change and EW doesn't have anything to do with it

Nothing leads to believe that we'll need any space launches to operate the F-35,unless we want to operate them at the same level of effectiveness as the USA which we don't need , but if we do then yes we will have to do that.

The PRC is pursuing stealth with extreme dedication and there is definitely a need for us to do the same.

As far as stakes are concerned there are a lot of countries who have their heads on their line who have dipped into the F35

Israel is under threat at every moment of it's existence ,South Korea,Singapore and Japan just like us are under threat from China.

 

[cannonfodder]

It means 120 LCA by 2027(full stop) and then IAF will cry about shortage of supplies/maintenance issues. Hence foreign maal is always better(only expensive when it is required the most). By then DFI will have AMCA thread similar to tejas one to keep us under impression that something useful/cutting edge is being built.

It is recap of Arjun tank. Bloody civilians cannot even make tank or aircraft or rifle..

What will be the impact of this on tejas?
Following tejas program since I was in 9th standard

 

[Indibomber]

Btw MIG 35 ( I know it's dual engine) has been invited for the contest. MIG is on verge of being bank curropt. so we might get TOT on some critical techs.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

First of all I would like the tejas Mk1+ followed by Mk2 and no foreign fighter. In case we decided to go for foreign fighter, we must go for Gripen E as it will substitute MMRCA in many rolls. It is faster, it is agile, it has a great weight carrying capability , it is network centric, It has a classic EW and RADAR. It is undoubtedly the best single engine fighter that exist today. Arup raha rightly said that his preference is Gripen after rafale.

 

[WolfPack86]

India Launches Global Search for Single-Engine Fighter Jets
By: Vivek Raghuvanshi, October 12, 2016
NEW DELHI - India has begun a fresh program to acquire single-engine fighter aircraft to be built in India on the basis of foreign technology, as invitations have been sent privately through Indian Embassies to "some overseas participants" to partake in the program, according to an official at the Ministry of Defence (MoD).

Among the planes expected to be in the running are Lockheed Martin's F-16 Block 70 and Saab's Gripen E.
"If it is single-engine fighter, there are mainly two: Lockheed Martin and Saab," Muthumanikam Matheswaran, retired Indian Air Force Air Marshal says.

"It appears that Lockheed Martin and Saab would get shortlisted if it is confirmed that only three countries, including Russia, have been
approached to seek their response," Daljit Singh, retired IAF Air Marshal and defense analyst, said.
The announcement for a fresh fighter program comes within a month after India committed to buying 36 Rafale fighters from France at a cost of $8.85 billion.

Defense officials here have given no detail about the how the overseas vendor will be picked, but analysts say a government-to-government transaction will be the preferred path.

"It would also be reasonable to infer that India is mulling a Government-to-Government (G2G) deal. Selection will, of course, be
based on trials and price offered by the manufacturers from these countries," says Amit Cowshish, MoD's former additional financial adviser.
The new fighter program is meant to replace 11 squadrons (one squadron equals 18 aircraft) of the Russian MiG 21 and MiG 27 aircraft, which are retiring in the next ten years. The Indian Air Force is already facing shortage of combat jets as it has around 33-34 operational fighter squadrons, while officials believe they would need 45 squadrons in a hypothetical confrontation with China or Pakistan.

The recently contracted Rafale, the domestically-produced Tejas Light Combat Aircraft and the Sukhoi SU-30MKI will not be able to fill the gap in the fleet strength, said an Indian Air Force official.

The purchase of an additional single-engine fighter aircraft will not affect the homemade Tejas, say analysts.

The new plane, if eventually acquired, would be the ninth type of Indian fighter aircraft, joining an inventory of Sukhoi-30MKI, Mirage 2000, Jaguar, MiG-29, MiG-27, MiG-21, Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) and Rafale jets.
While IAF hunts for a new vendor to build planes in India, analysts say the government can ensure in the selection that adequate
technologies are transferred that can help other ongoing aerospace programs.

" A long-term partnership that involves large production in India and addresses exports jointly will result in significant technology flow. ... The partnership should be mandated such that maximum advantage is gained for Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA)
development," says Matheswaran.

The Indian Air Force IAF has proposed to build locally a fifth-generation aircraft, the AMCA, but the program is only in the concept stage.
http://www.defensenews.com/articles/india-launches-global-search-for-single-engine-fighter-jets

 

[here2where]

Going for Gripen E makes better sense, especially with the ToT on offer and also help offered on LCA Mk1a.
On a lighter note, wondering how a country with world's highest salaries for professionals is able to offer a cheaper aircraft!!

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

Dont tell me we will have trials again.

 

[Zebra]

The Boeing KC-46A Tanker: Refuels Military Aircraft Using 3D

Published on Aug 16, 2016, by Boeing

 

[Scarface]

Btw MIG 35 ( I know it's dual engine) has been invited for the contest. MIG is on verge of being bank curropt. so we might get TOT on some critical techs.

Source ?
.........................................

 

[vajradatta]

Russia may have been included just to mollify them but the RFI has been written so as to exclude Russki aircraft (they don't have any new single-engine fighters AFAIK). Our experience with the Sukhoi's 40-50% availability is enough for IAF. It's probably the last Russian aircraft in IAF.

 

[cannonfodder]

Tell this to scientist in ADA how has worked 10-15 years for Tejas only to see it getting pushed back and eventually thrown in dustbin. He will be very happy to know to IAF want SINGLE JET super-duper foreign fighter over homegrown AC (whose capabilities can be enhanced according to Indian requirement without spending a fortune).

The purchase of an additional single-engine fighter aircraft will not affect the homemade Tejas, say analysts.

 

[ezsasa]

Tell this to scientist in ADA how has worked 10-15 years for Tejas only to see it getting pushed back and eventually thrown in dustbin. He will be very happy to know to IAF want SINGLE JET super-duper foreign fighter over homegrown AC (whose capabilities can be enhanced according to Indian requirement without spending a fortune).

if the said scientist feels that Tejas is world class, he can always work on making a export oriented version. This is not the end of the road as many think. if indeed HAL comes out with a IPO, they will have to change their management structure and policies. There is much to happen going ahead..

 

[cannonfodder]

Export version of LCA when Indian air force has no confidence to induct in enough numbers..

You want to sell Rs. 5 condom but yourself use $1 condom (with fear of failure of unworthy condom) . I thought this is one valid area Indian members mock JF-17 bundar for.. The chinese developer themselves not inducting any and selling cheap product to others.

if the said scientist feels that Tejas is world class, he can always work on making a export oriented version. This is not the end of the road as many think. if indeed HAL comes out with a IPO, they will have to change their management structure and policies. There is much to happen going ahead..

 

[ezsasa]

Export version of LCA when Indian air force has no confidence to induct in enough numbers..

You want to sell Rs. 5 condom but yourself use $1 condom (with fear of failure of unworthy condom) . I thought this is one area Indian members mock JF-17 bundar for.. The chinese developer themselves not inducting any and selling cheap product to others.

110 for IAF , 40 for IN in confirmed book order is not a small number, Gripen has been there from early 90's and yet they sold about 250.

Let's not write off Tejas yet !!! By the time the first two tejas squadrons are operational, we can assume IAF will showcase the aircraft in a much better way..

All i am saying is, let's not jump the gun. it's still early days...

 

[cannonfodder]

It is small order compared to what IAF is ready to invest in Gripen/F-16 which will be no less that 200 AC confirmed for 16/year production rate( and it will do it happily/willingly). And yes you think it will not eat in to Tejas numbers now but slowly and steadily arms mafia will kill homegrown tech sighting and magnifying different shortcomings.

Today IAF is sighting AESA radar/engine, datalink 2-3 years down the line it will be another set of reasons. You have to start somewhere to develop homegrown capabilities. What is it exactly stopping IAF with Tejas now??

The reality is IAF does not want to spend anytime or effort for any development activity in homegrown AC. But yes they will crawl before foreign vendors for same reasons.

110 for IAF , 40 for IN in confirmed book order is not a small number, Gripen has been there from early 90's and yet they sold about 250.

Let's not write off Tejas yet !!! By the time the first two tejas squadrons are operational, we can assume IAF will showcase the aircraft in a much better way..

All i am saying is, let's not jump the gun. it's still early days...