Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[NutCracker]

Lighter yeas, but what about PWR? Very few birds can even dream of the MIG29's power reserve. And the MiG29 can hit Mach 2.3. Tejas cant

How good is Airforce's mig29 airframe ?? Can it actually push to the quoted number ?

Looking at how degraded mig29K airfram is I will avoid quoting such inflated stats.

 

[DumbPilot]

Most Wild Weasel pilots use the HARM as a decoy at best. HARM is easy to fool if you have the right understanding and tactics. But given how Russia has all the tactical knowledge of a schizophrenic 3 year old ...

In modern times you don't even need HARMs. Swarm attacks with cruise missiles launched from ships or submarines could get the job done quietly and without fuss, the SAM operaaors won't even see it coming.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

But why are we replacing mig-21 with mig-29, why not Tejas

MiG29 is the perfect point defence interceptor - Tejas will have a slower response time. MiG29 can climb to altitude and engage enemy incursions much quicker - just like the MiG21

Lighter yeas, but what about PWR? Very few birds can even dream of the MIG29's power reserve. And the MiG29 can hit Mach 2.3. Tejas cant

Their are three main reasons

1. Tejas is not BVR proven. BVR tactics fro Tejas have still not be been matured.
2. IAF was completely exhaust the airframe life of Mig-29 before retiring them
3. Personal on ground are yet not acclimatized with Tejas's operation

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

I hope the orders are on time then

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

How good is Airforce's mig29 airframe ?? Can it actually push to the quoted number ?

Looking at how degraded mig29K airfram is I will avoid quoting such inflated stats.

The Mig 29 airframe was refurbished during the 2012 upgrade to Mig 29 UPG, and it is said that the upgrade has added 15 additional years to its service life.
Also, the aircraft is likely stripped to its airframe skin during repair and overhaul by BRD, so its likely if the airframe is not capable of Mach 2.3, it will be known there and then itself.

 

[johnj]

Most Wild Weasel pilots use the HARM as a decoy at best. HARM is easy to fool if you have the right understanding and tactics. But given how Russia has all the tactical knowledge of a schizophrenic 3 year old ...

Its depends on humans operating it. Let assume you are right, then why countries buying SAM systems ? or R&D better ARM than HARM ?
HARM is not a decoy, an expensive missile to target FCR/Radar, if HARM fails, mission fails, USAF fails, & if HARM is a decoy then F35/F22 is also decoy.
HARM - High-speed Anti-Radiation Missile .
Most expensive ground strike aircraft is used to deliver such a critical weapon, like F/A 18G, and an experienced SAM operator can turn HARM into useless, and Russians knows how to turn HARM into a dumb weapon, like a good target[decoy], that why UK developed new ARM, US developed new versions/missiles like
AGM-88E AARGM, AGM-88G AARGM-ER. Russian SAM operator & systems are so great, US forced to deploy stealth fighters/bombers like F117, B2, F22, F35 etc. and even cancelled sale of F35 to Turkey. US just removing old missiles from their arsenal.

 

[johnj]

In modern times you don't even need HARMs. Swarm attacks with cruise missiles launched from ships or submarines could get the job done quietly and without fuss, the SAM operaaors won't even see it coming.

Both can't do HARM job, but Israel developed ARM drone, still new versions of HARM are better.

 

[DumbPilot]

HARM is not a decoy, an expensive missile to target FCR/Radar, if HARM fails, mission fails, USAF fails, & if HARM is a decoy then F35/F22 is also decoy.

Not really. As binayak said, HARMs are there only for SEAD(suppression of enemy air defense). If the enemy FCR is forced to shut down due to the HARM, then it has been suppressed, no matter if the HARM misses or not - a hit by the HARM on the SAM is just a bonus.

In the 1990s, common wild weasel tactic was to use HARMs and cluster bombs together in a hunter-killer pair. The guy with the HARMs would fire at a SAM site(say a SA-2, SA-3, SA-6, etc.), and the guy with the cluster bombs would roll in and destroy the grouping after the SAM was forced into suppression.

 

[johnj]

Not really. As binayak said, HARMs are there only for SEAD(suppression of enemy air defense). If the enemy FCR is forced to shut down due to the HARM, then it has been suppressed, no matter if the HARM misses or not - a hit by the HARM on the SAM is just a bonus.

In the 1990s, common wild weasel tactic was to use HARMs and cluster bombs together in a hunter-killer pair. The guy with the HARMs would fire at a SAM site(say a SA-2, SA-3, SA-6, etc.), and the guy with the cluster bombs would roll in and destroy the grouping after the SAM was forced into suppression.

Here - suppression, means destruction of Radar, which disable SAM system and HARM don't cause shut down of Radar.
SAM operator shut down Radar to avoid ARM, once ARM become useless, they turn on Radar back, cause huge issues to USAF, and US developed a new tactics.
''In the 1990s, common wild weasel tactic was to use HARMs and cluster bombs together in a hunter-killer pair. The guy with the HARMs would fire at a SAM site(say a SA-2, SA-3, SA-6, etc.), and the guy with the cluster bombs would roll in and destroy the grouping after the SAM was forced into suppression.''
Here I think keyword is cluster bombs. When SAM operator shut down Radar, it provide a gap[sam inactive] and USAF send bomber to hell rain the entire area, with multiple effect, [google cluster bombs and why it banned] and rest job can be done by strike aircraft.
This tactics too old, and countries developed multiple layers of SAM or A2/AD systems. Even US developed new versions of harm, f35, f22, f18g etc.

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

You guys think amca by 2030 is possible?

 

[Butter Chicken]

 

[jai jaganath]

You guys think amca by 2030 is possible?

Impossible to retire upg and m-2000s before 2030s they have a lot of life and upgraded to latest standards and capable to fight modern wars
They may start retiring after 2030s but that too older variants of mig-29

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

Impossible to retire upg and m-2000s before 2030s they have a lot of life and upgraded to latest standards and capable to fight modern wars
They may start retiring after 2030s but that too older variants of mig-29

 

[jai jaganath]

Just like they were retiring mig-21 bison earlier
They will say that squadron shortage so we must retain

 

[binayak95]

How good is Airforce's mig29 airframe ?? Can it actually push to the quoted number ?

Looking at how degraded mig29K airfram is I will avoid quoting such inflated stats.

The MiG29K is subjected to something that the airframe was never designed for, hard arrested landings at speeds much higher than airbase landings under drag chutes.

Not quite the same thing at all.
I would avoid speaking of things I dont know at all

 

[binayak95]

Its depends on humans operating it. Let assume you are right, then why countries buying SAM systems ? or R&D better ARM than HARM ?
HARM is not a decoy, an expensive missile to target FCR/Radar, if HARM fails, mission fails, USAF fails, & if HARM is a decoy then F35/F22 is also decoy.
HARM - High-speed Anti-Radiation Missile .
Most expensive ground strike aircraft is used to deliver such a critical weapon, like F/A 18G, and an experienced SAM operator can turn HARM into useless, and Russians knows how to turn HARM into a dumb weapon, like a good target[decoy], that why UK developed new ARM, US developed new versions/missiles like
AGM-88E AARGM, AGM-88G AARGM-ER. Russian SAM operator & systems are so great, US forced to deploy stealth fighters/bombers like F117, B2, F22, F35 etc. and even cancelled sale of F35 to Turkey. US just removing old missiles from their arsenal.

Arreh bhai saab.
113 - Wild Weasels - YouTube

Listen to it from the horse's mouth.
HARM is entirely useless against an adversary who knows how to defeat a homing sensor (hint: decoy emitters and EW)

Wild Weasel pilots prefer to use cluster munitions and AGM 65s for DEAD work.

 

[binayak95]

Not really. As binayak said, HARMs are there only for SEAD(suppression of enemy air defense). If the enemy FCR is forced to shut down due to the HARM, then it has been suppressed, no matter if the HARM misses or not - a hit by the HARM on the SAM is just a bonus.

In the 1990s, common wild weasel tactic was to use HARMs and cluster bombs together in a hunter-killer pair. The guy with the HARMs would fire at a SAM site(say a SA-2, SA-3, SA-6, etc.), and the guy with the cluster bombs would roll in and destroy the grouping after the SAM was forced into suppression.

The USN leads in strike packages under a blanket of HARMs. That is HARMs being fired off every 2 minutes through the duration of the strike mission, that forces enemy radars to go into degraded/switch off mode, but it doesnt mean the HARMs get kills - they do squat all.

 

[binayak95]

Here - suppression, means destruction of Radar, which disable SAM system and HARM don't cause shut down of Radar.
SAM operator shut down Radar to avoid ARM, once ARM become useless, they turn on Radar back, cause huge issues to USAF, and US developed a new tactics.
''In the 1990s, common wild weasel tactic was to use HARMs and cluster bombs together in a hunter-killer pair. The guy with the HARMs would fire at a SAM site(say a SA-2, SA-3, SA-6, etc.), and the guy with the cluster bombs would roll in and destroy the grouping after the SAM was forced into suppression.''
Here I think keyword is cluster bombs. When SAM operator shut down Radar, it provide a gap[sam inactive] and USAF send bomber to hell rain the entire area, with multiple effect, [google cluster bombs and why it banned] and rest job can be done by strike aircraft.
This tactics too old, and countries developed multiple layers of SAM or A2/AD systems. Even US developed new versions of harm, f35, f22, f18g etc.

Exactly what i meant - HARM is useless in this day and age, frequency hopping radars, ECCM and CIWS systems at the SAM site will defeat HARM.

That is, if the crews are trained accordingly. USAF Viper pilots use HARMs to make enemy radars go degraded, so other jets can come in and kill them, or alternatively, they'll fire HARMs from other sites so that enemy radars/EO sensors can scope in, exposing their location.

 

[binayak95]

In modern times you don't even need HARMs. Swarm attacks with cruise missiles launched from ships or submarines could get the job done quietly and without fuss, the SAM operaaors won't even see it coming.

Drone Swarms havent really gone up against a modern IADS, with sensor fuzed 40mm guns and EW built in.
I dont know how much faith i would have in them - cruise missiles are fine as long as your SAMs are not mobile.

 

[johnj]

Arreh bhai saab.
113 - Wild Weasels - YouTube

Listen to it from the horse's mouth.
HARM is entirely useless against an adversary who knows how to defeat a homing sensor (hint: decoy emitters and EW)

Wild Weasel pilots prefer to use cluster munitions and AGM 65s for DEAD work.

Bai, samja karo
defeat a homing sensor (hint: decoy emitters and EW) is next level, here I'm talking about HARM, not atgm, or short range agm, lol, very funny, Brahmos ER is not same like SANT missile.
Better you watch the video & understand the difference b/w ir/tv missile & ARM first. Then explain to me where I'm wrong.
For your basic knowledge- AGM 65 is ir/tv guided missile & cluster munitions are dumb munitions and basically antipersonal. Also lots of countries stopped using cluster munitions, and banned by some countries.
Watching some youtube video don't make a person genius.
To understand DEAD/SEAD you need basic knowledge about different type of AD systems.