Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Dark Sorrow]

Is there a similar pie chart as per capital expenditure as opposed to total expenditure.

Isn't the second graph stating the same.

 

[ezsasa]

Our organization wise spending pattern

View attachment 168915

Army spending must be reduced by more than half and the funds must be transferred to IAF, IN and DRDO. Steps are being taken in this direction but it will take time to achieve results.

Our categorized spending pattern.

View attachment 168916

If you see capital expenditure is only 28% across entire MOD.

This leaves very small budget for IAF for capital expenditure.

Their is also a technical capabilities. Currently PAF is inducting jets with AESA radar and BVRAAM with AESA seeker. In either case effectiveness of Rafale has come into question hence the entire re-tendering.
People on internet and DFI may yell Rafale can take on J-20 and J-16D but this couldn't be further from the truth.

We also have other important priorities than Rafales.

capex budget allocation is determined by payment schedule for the fiscal, not the case that budget is determined first and then they look for where to spend. most major capex spending are spread across multiple years.

in IAF's case, weapon systems are not the only capex expenditure they have, over the past 10 years they have been spending quite a lot on airbase infra, equipment and connectivity upgrades.

 

[IndianHawk]

Our organization wise spending pattern

View attachment 168915

Army spending must be reduced by more than half and the funds must be transferred to IAF, IN and DRDO. Steps are being taken in this direction but it will take time to achieve results.

Our categorized spending pattern.

View attachment 168916

If you see capital expenditure is only 28% across entire MOD.

This leaves very small budget for IAF for capital expenditure.

Their is also a technical capabilities. Currently PAF is inducting jets with AESA radar and BVRAAM with AESA seeker. In either case effectiveness of Rafale has come into question hence the entire re-tendering.
People on internet and DFI may yell Rafale can take on J-20 and J-16D but this couldn't be further from the truth.

We also have other important priorities than Rafales.

Agree with your post accept the last part. Rafale can very well take apart both j16D and j20. J20 with those huge canards is not stealth at all. We have several stealth jets flying like f35 , f22 and su57 and we have several concepts in advance stages like AMCA , tfx even kfx ( later batches) and upcoming ambitious program by advanced nations like Tempest , fcas etc. And not a single one of them opted for canards. I repeat not a single canard concept in over 10 stealth jets / concept.

Chinese were forces to use canards because they couldn't get adequate power for their jet. Besides j20 is not stealth engine wise as it has massive IR signature.

And being underpowered it can't supercruise so the moment it uses afterburner it gives away it's location.

 

[IndianHawk]

capex budget allocation is determined by payment schedule for the fiscal, not the case that budget is determined first and then they look for where to spend. most major capex spending are spread across multiple years.

in IAF's case, weapon systems are not the only capex expenditure they have, over the past 10 years they have been spending quite a lot on airbase infra, equipment and connectivity upgrades.

In last 10 years IAF have invested massively in air base infra , connectivity and most importantly SAM networks.

Akash , Barak and s400 , qrsam and now upcoming akash ng, vl- Astra and later xr Sam. India will become one the most SAM intense territory on planet.

This decade will have focus back on fighter jets , awacs and transport .

 

[ezsasa]

In last 10 years IAF have invested massively in air base infra , connectivity and most importantly SAM networks.

Akash , Barak and s400 , qrsam and now upcoming akash ng, vl- Astra and later xr Sam. India will become one the most SAM intense territory on planet.

This decade will have focus back on fighter jets , awacs and transport .

spending on new SAM systems alone by the time all deals are signed will be close to 15 billion $+ in IAF's account.
+
whatever IA buys.

 

[IndianHawk]

Oh, I did not want to go down that rabbit hole. But here -

Egypt defence budget - 4 Bn $
Indonesia defence budget - 9.3 Bn $
UAE defence budget - ~20-22 Bn $

Indian defence budget - 76.6 Bn $

Problem is not money, but mentality. We want F-22s at the cost of JF-17s. Frugalism does not work when you have two nuclear neighbours actively trying to sabotage you.

At the end of the day, everybody will agree, if we signed deal for 126 MMRCA in 2014, outcome of Balakot strike & aftermath would have been different. Yeah, it would have been expensive, but it was a necessary expense.



In the last 4 years, Pakistan has imported -

• JF-17s (50+)
• J-10 (6+)
• Bayraktar TB2
• Wing Loong II
• CH-4 Rainbow
• Type 54 Frigates
• HQ-9
• HQ-16

And many other high-cost equipments. Yeah, you can argue they are donations, they are on loan, but they are getting them, and they will matter in a conflict. Pakistan is 2nd in line for bankruptcy after Sri Lanka. Do you hear them they don't have money to buy more J-10s ?

We are also ordering massive quantities in last few years we have ordered
40 lca + 36 rafale (76jets mostly inducted already) and 83 more mk1a order placed.
So that's 159 brand new Jets. If we can get 36 more rafale as second batch + 26 more of navy in next 4-5 years that will take total to 221 new jets.

Hopefully deal with Russia about additional mig29 and su30 is done soon.
And su30 aesa upgrade moves on faster.

Once we start receiving mk2/ mwf our numbers will improve steadily.

 

[IndianHawk]

spending on new SAM systems alone by the time all deals are signed will be close to 15 billion $+ in IAF's account.
+
whatever IA buys.

And most of this money has gone to indegenous systems . With xr Sam upcoming we will be mostly independent in SAM systems barring only a few more s400/ s500 regiments in future.

 

[IndianHawk]

Still IAF was short charged with mmrca since 2005. And is loosing squadron strength. Hence 36 more rafale F4 should be ordered asap with firm orders for mwf. Get navy those 26 rafale and speed up tedbf.

Later 36 more rafale F5 should be ordered as a last batch before AMCA.

 

[ezsasa]

in IAF's case, weapon systems are not the only capex expenditure they have, over the past 10 years they have been spending quite a lot on airbase infra, equipment and connectivity upgrades.

2012
MAFI project to take off at Lohegaon airbase in November,says Air Chief

MAFI project to take off at Lohegaon airbase in November,says Air Chief

MAFI project involves upgrade of 26 Air Force bases in the country of which Pune is one. Equipment and infrastructure received under the project is expected to benefit civilian flight operations also

indianexpress.com

2020
$8.6 Billion upgrade of IAF airbases completed in December
https://www.indiadefencedialogue.co...pgrade-of-iaf-airbases-completed-in-december/

2020
Ministry of Defence signs Phase-II of airfield upgrade project
https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...-airfield-upgrade-project/article31537573.ece

there will be more, if we look for them.

 

[Knowitall]

I am surprised to see armed forces bashing becoming a fad here. Anything and everything uncomfortable is being blamed on "incompetence", rather than looking at the holistic picture. Surely, it is easy to blame the armed forces because they are an honorable organization that won't get into petty politics on whose mistake it is.

Govt. won't buy jets for Airforce and ask them to fight a war with China and Pakistan in Mig-21s, then blame IAF for failure and high crash rate.
Govt. will only provide substandard equipment, lacking even proper equipment to even SF, let alone common solider, then blame IA why they are facing casualties in encounters with terrorists or not able to tackle China on LAC.

As others have already pointed out from massive investment in air bases to a good SAM network consisting of akash s-400 and MR-SAM plus other upgrades in transport and AWACS fleets IAF has steadily been upgraded over the past few years.

All MIGS in our inventory are being replaced with AESA and BVR capable Tejas as of now.

We have got the unarmed and armed dhruv in good versions apaches and chinooks too.

Our balance sheet is probably filled to the brim after these purchases. It is better govt releases funds for Tejas mk-2 and we get along with it.

 

[Jimih]

Still IAF was short charged with mmrca since 2005. And is loosing squadron strength. Hence 36 more rafale F4 should be ordered asap with firm orders for mwf. Get navy those 26 rafale and speed up tedbf.

Later 36 more rafale F5 should be ordered as a last batch before AMCA.

Navy buying Rafales? highly doubt it that they want it in first place.

It should be shoved down their throats.

No uniformity, different ACs and different platforms.

And Navy wants 3 more ACs.

 

[Jimih]

Members here are taking potshots on Rafale while blindly appreciating Chinese JF jets.

Everyone saw during Taiwan-Pelosi fiasco how Russian made Chinese jets were leading the way to charge into Taiwan strait and not any Chinese JF jets.

Ditto during Balakot strike, it was French platforms only. Our bomber fleet is French made jets only.

 

[DumbPilot]

Navy buying Rafales? highly doubt it that they want it in first place.

It should be shoved down their throats.

No uniformity, different ACs and different platforms.

And Navy wants 3 more ACs.

I am almost sure they will buy the Super Hornet and not the Rafale, because the Super Hornet is simply more attractive and powerful

 

[Knowitall]

Members here are taking potshots on Rafale while blindly appreciating Chinese JF jets.

Everyone saw during Taiwan-Pelosi fiasco how Russian made Chinese jets were leading the way to charge into Taiwan strait and not any Chinese JF jets.

Ditto during Balakot strike, it was French platforms only. Our bomber fleet is French made jets only.

Members unable to comprehend simple paragraphs leads to issues.

No one is taking potshots at rafale it's an excellent aircraft but the money is non existent as simple as that.

Also if forum members here are so immersed about rafale they should start a go find me page for rafale because the govt sure as heck won't buy them in the near term atleast.

With current outlays India will significantly improve its arsenal with drdo awacs and Tejas mk-1a in the coming years before we move towards ghatak UAV's Tejas mk-2 etc.

Jf-17 as i pointed out and let me repeat the line again since people fail to understand simple sentences it is no great aircraft but does the basic job in cheap.

Tejas not only offers great growth and experience to our MIC but also is a first class product and thus is the way to go.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

I really dunno the reality ..
IAF pilots that have flown the mig 21 hold it in a mythical status .. I've heard from them that mig 21 has a 1m2 RCS head on .. so very hard to lock on with BVRAMs etc etc . And yes the same pilots will prefer this over the tejas anyday .. (disclaimer they were involved with the tejas only in the early days ..pre 2010.)

Mig-21 have frontal RCS around 3m2.
The SU-34 have frontal RCS around 1m2 and SU-35s have frontal RCS around 1m2 to 3m2.
Frontal RCS of Su 30MKI is expected around 4m2.
Rafale is expected to have frontal RCS around 1m2.

Looking at the size of Mig-21 RCS around 3m2 is not good.
Modern BVRAAM are very sensitive and are extremely capable in identifying and tracking target. 1m2 is not a big deal in today's BVR combat. Missiles are being optimized to engage and hunt down 5th generation target having RCS less than 0.1m2.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

I am almost sure they will buy the Super Hornet and not the Rafale, because the Super Hornet is simply more attractive and powerful

Their is also wing dismantling requirement for operating Rafale as per some articles while folded wings of Super Hornet allow transport through lifts.
Super Hornet also was able to take-off with more munition.

 

[karn]

Mig-21 have frontal RCS around 3m2.
The SU-34 have frontal RCS around 1m2 and SU-35s have frontal RCS around 1m2 to 3m2.
Frontal RCS of Su 30MKI is expected around 4m2.
Rafale is expected to have frontal RCS around 1m2.

Looking at the size of Mig-21 RCS around 3m2 is not good.
Modern BVRAAM are very sensitive and are extremely capable in identifying and tracking target. 1m2 is not a big deal in today's BVR combat. Missiles are being optimized to engage and hunt down 5th generation target having RCS less than 0.1m2.

I am just quoting him verbatim.And how exactly does the duck faced Su 34 . and the Su 35 which is again almost identical to the Su30 have such reduced RCS compared to the su 30 ?

 

[Dark Sorrow]

If I do all the calculations, 23 % 76.6 Bn $ is 17.618 Bn $, capital expenditure of that is, 24 % of 17.618 Bn $ still comes 5 Bn $ anually to buy equipment.
Also, not to say govt. can sanction extra money the year when we are going to sign the deal. Again, mentality matters.

IAF is making a lot of investment in airfield especially near LAC.
IAF is also making lot investment in force multiplier like EW capabilities (ECM, ECCM and ESM), AWACS, Air-Defence, network-centric capabilities, etc. Such endeavors are very capital intensive, especially since we import them from third countries.
Not to forget the mid-upgrade for MKI and rest of the fleet.
IAF is also assemilating lot of new Tejas.

Elta-2052 on Jaguar & Tejas is a AESA radar, aswell as RBE-2 on Rafale. Meteor BVR on Rafale again, sports an AESA seeker.

Meteor currently doesn't field AESA seeker. Currently IAF doesn't have overwhelming capability against PAF, we need to develop such capabilities and only indigenous platform like Tejas Mk. 1 , Mk. 2 and AMCA can enable us to build such capabilities.

And yes, Rafale can take on J-20 and J-16D comfortably.

Quote from Wikipedia

Analyst Justin Bronk from Royal United Services Institute noted that Chinese are possibly flying the J-20 with radar reflectors during peacetime for safety and training purposes due to the potential for accidents and identification from other aircraft or ground installations. In a more recent report, Bronk also states that even with limited stealth, J-20 could hide and strike enemy critical platforms in an airspace with background clutter caused by non-stealth fighters and other electromagnetic noise. Despite debate regarding J-20's stealth capability, military analysts agree that the J-20's stealth design is superior to that of the Russian Su-57 while being more comparable to the American F-22 and F-35, and its stealth profile could be further enhanced as the program matures.

The J-20 also symbolizes that the Western Bloc is losing the monopoly on stealth fighter technologies.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Our organization wise spending pattern

View attachment 168915

Army spending must be reduced by more than half and the funds must be transferred to IAF, IN and DRDO. Steps are being taken in this direction but it will take time to achieve results.

Our categorized spending pattern.

View attachment 168916

If you see capital expenditure is only 28% across entire MOD.

This leaves very small budget for IAF for capital expenditure.

Their is also a technical capabilities. Currently PAF is inducting jets with AESA radar and BVRAAM with AESA seeker. In either case effectiveness of Rafale has come into question hence the entire re-tendering.
People on internet and DFI may yell Rafale can take on J-20 and J-16D but this couldn't be further from the truth.

We also have other important priorities than Rafales.

It would make much more sense if you look at CAPEX/Revenue budget ratio of each of the Forces separately instead of these pie charts of total budget share between Forces. That will show how IAF spends > 50% of its budget on CAPEX, Navy spends near 50% on CAPEX but Army spends a very very low % by comparison on CAPEX as Revenue eats all in Army's case. That will also show you how your target of "reducing Army's budget to half and transferring funds to Air Force and Navy" is a non starter. Its simply impossible.
Even if you look at it in absolute terms, instead of % terms, Army's CAPEX is lower than that of both Navy and Air Force.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

I am just quoting him verbatim.And how exactly does the duck faced Su 34 . and the Su 35 which is again almost identical to the Su30 have such reduced RCS compared to the su 30 ?

Better material, optimized RCS design, lack of canards (Su-35), modern design practices.